Jigs vs Freehand

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I am a free hand guy myself, my life is built around connection to what I am doing. Working with my hands, with products, with people. Connection is my life, so using a jig or something like that i feel disconnected. I love to sharpen and the feel of sharpening, as Jon said it is a bit of a zen thing.
 
Some years ago, I broke my left wrist and it still gives me trouble. I can pick up a stack of saute pans without a problem, but when having to do more precise work, sometimes it acts up. When I owned german knives I also owned an oil tri stone. When using the tri stone, it would take me at least 30 minutes to sharpen a knife, with applying pressure and holding the angle my wrist would act up and I would have to keep taking breaks. That is why I originally went with an Edge Pro. I used to be annoyed at the "setup time" like someone else mentioned. But now I have mine permanently set up on a half sheet pan, and my stones in a tupperware container perma soaking. I do not tape the blades, and I do not slide the knives back and forth on the edgepro as I sharpen. I sharpen ~3" section at a time, pick it up, move it, and do the next section. It isn't as tedious as it sounds. It doesn't scratch the blades, and on the sheetpan I can sit on my couch and watch TV while I sharpen if I like. I have chosera stones for it and I do not have trouble with them. The slurry I get off of them is thick and sticks to the stones even when they are upside down.

I do own some freehand stones now, and have been sharpening single bevel knives on them, and practicing on some of my double bevels that I don't mind if I mess up. The japanese water stones are easier to use freehand than the oil stones. and the single bevel helps me hold the angle and not aggravate my wrist.
 
I'm still learning. Freehand worksforme(tm)
 
This rock I found out in the yard, and a felt belt loaded with chrome oxide work pretty well for me, provided I don't let the edge get totally outta control dull.
moritake-stone.jpg
 
:what: Tom, is that stone flattened? It might be sideways swish marks, but it looks wavy.
 
Yep, I hit it with a belt sander. I guess it's an optical illusion 'cause it's real flat.
 
What the hell is that Tom? :biggrin:

I wonder if we can cut that down and mount it in an EP? :biggrin2:
 
All joking aside, there was a pretty good discussion (well kind of a discussion) over at FF this weekend regarding "innovation" and "opening up a yanagiba" using a jig system. The point of how a jig is limiting for use on single bevel knives was made repeatedly through some great descriptions from many people. Not to send you over there but there is some pretty good stuff on the subject that's worth reading in those threads.

If you'd prefer the cliff notes > the premise is that single bevel knives are shaped in such a way that jigs can't sharpen them correctly. They can get them sharp but will have to do so outside of how the knife should be dealt with.
 
Kinda like watching "Real Housewives of ..." You can't help but look and the whole time you know its just wrong.

So two questions....would someone who is equally proficent with a jig system, freehanding and single bevel knives be able to use a jig system to sharpen a single bevel blade as good as or better as freehand?

It sounded like the problem with using a jig system on a single bevel blade was the inability to properly account for variance (convex-ivity ?) in the blade path (either from the shinogi to the start of the edge bevel or the whole kiriba/blade path....from Gators' diagram here: http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jbladeant.shtml )
But I thought one of the 'atributes' often sited for freehanding single bevel blades was that the blade path was a built in angle guide? Any chance the cliff notes can sort out that mess of thinking?
 
Hi Mike, I like your analogy regarding those threads. :D

I'm not actually inline with saying that the blade road of a single bevel knife is a built in guide, in fact I feel quite different about that. I view it as easier to control wobble because of a wider contact patch to the stone, that's about it for me. The thing is that there's actually 2-3 bevels on a single bevel knife, along the blade road. There's the bevel (generally hollow ground) from shinogi to about the beginning of the hagane (core steel), then there's the bevel from there down to the cutting edge bevel. From factory new this is how we see single beveled knives arrive. So if we lay the knife down on the blade road we only touch the stone just below the shinogi line and just above the edge bevel - we are no where near the cutting edge at this point so it's unrealistic to expect this to be a built in guide for sharpening. The blade road can eventually become a flat single bevel down to the edge if the user wants to do the work to convert the blade road to this shape and then it becomes a built in guide.

As to using a jig on these knives I'm going to stick with no as the answer. I used an EP for years and I know it can't do what I want to do to single bevel knives. There's two components that contribute to this....first there's the issue that a jig can't roll through angle changes while making a sweep and the second is the lack of ability to employ the subtleties of touch required to make the mist/haze be appropriate for both appearance and food release.
 
I just couldn't read it all or much for that matter. All I know is that if you don't freehand you're half a man. Or quarter woman.
 
Warning! The above was posted under the influence.
 
Someone previously mentioned that sharpening by hand, on stones, was a zen thing for them. I agree with that, but as nothing more than a home cook, walking into the kitchen in general is a zen thing for me. It's a contemplative, almost meditative time. Deep huh? I can't think about all the other daily issues and stressors while preparing meals for my son, friends and myself. For that short piece of time, everything else takes a back seat. Sharpening knives on stones is part of that process. Plus I like the satisfaction that comes with it. It might not produce a perfect edge, but it creates the best edge I can produce with my skill set at a given time.
stone.jpg
 
Salty dog said:
All I know is that if you don't freehand you're half a man. Or quarter woman.
Click to expand...

hahaha, this general idea has always been in my thoughts, but I never wanted to come out and say it...

Not that I think any less of people that use jigs, I just believe almost anyone can learn to sharpen very good freehand if they keep at it. Granted, some people might lack the dexterity or they favor scientific 'perfection' with exact angles, in which I completely understand a guided system...but I think a lot of people just give up too easily on learning freehand (this is by no means a generalization of jig users, and I understand a good portion are also good freehanders and use both).

Almost 2 years ago I was just starting out...my edges were sub-par and I constantly got frustrated with it all. Part of me contemplated getting an EP at the time, but I decided to stick with freehanding because I told myself that I should be good at something like this. Really glad I stuck with it, because I've built up a skill that I'm confident with and can achieve awesome edges on each knife that cut exactly the way I want them to...I just have a sense of pride in freehanding.
 
I ended up picking up an Edge Pro Apex to basically teach myself what to expect in terms of generating a burr, pressure, what the angles looked like, etc. I expect in the long run I'll go back to individual stones (I had been maintaining my knives as best as I could with a King 1000/6000 combo stone, and did alright.) Without anyone around to really 'show me the way' per se, this seemed like the best way to get a better technical understanding of things.
 
I think Japanese blades were designed to an extreme of performance maintained through traditional means--hands on stone. The inherent wobble, pressure control, and considerate manipulation of freehanding on a stone are qualities that the single bevel knives were designed to benefit from. Modern western knives often have been marketed and even crafted with the idea that a machined, perfectly symmetrical design is somehow superior.

I still fail to see how a jig creates any kind of benefit unless you have a handicap that prevents you from maintaining any semblance of muscle control or endurance.

Which proves what a jig is--a crutch!
 
In my years at a jewelers bench I have assisted in the training of quite a few people. The thing that I learned is that everyone is wired a little differently. A thing that is just obvious to me can completely baffle someone else. An emploer that I had said that he could take anyone off the street and make a competent bench jeweler out of them, and after spending almost 14 years in his shop I saw that he was full of hubris and very wrong!
In highschool geometry class I just had to look at something once and I had it. Others in the class could not get it no matter how hard they tried.
For many of us sharpening freehand is just plain obvious, for others no amount of practice is going to make then proficient. Many people just do not have good hand eye coordination, it is just the way they are wired. While everyone can improve to some extent, not everyone can excel. Otherwise Dave would have a hard time finding work!
 
Popular opinion is sharpening should be left to the pros. An article on sharpening that appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Norman Weinstein, the author of Mastering Knife Skills, stated that knives needed to be sharpened by professionals.

It was more common a few years ago, on the other forums, pictures of knives were posted by new sharpeners, that were over ground. Additionally posts made by experienced users, about sharpening problems, appeared to reinforce popular opinion.

When I got into sharpening a jig system was a very attractive option. Jon Broida posted that there are all sorts of sharpening jigs in Japan.

The main reason I went free hand, is that forum members that I trusted, kept recommending it. After taking a number of baby steps in learning to sharpen, I don't know if I'll ever reach the point, where I can say I got it. There always seems something more to learn about free hand sharpening.

Learning any subject requires experience, which means practice. How much a person practices depends on how much they care about the subject. No matter the subject, eventually a person will hit the wall. They are stuck until there skill set improves. At this point many people will quit and move on. To break through requires passion or drive.

Anybody can put a poor bevel and crappy edge on a knife. It takes a person with passion to learn how to sharpen an edge to 10000 grit, leave no scratches and easily slice a tomato.

Jay
 
jaybett said:
Anybody can put a poor bevel and crappy edge on a knife. It takes a person with passion to learn how to sharpen an edge to 10000 grit, leave no scratches and easily slice a tomato.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it's relatively easy to sharpen with a single 1k stone, maybe make a few scratches (who cares) and still easily slice a tomato.

That's my biggest problem with stone recommendations on the forums - most beginners who don't need to slice sashimi would be much better off with a single 1k stone. Very few people actually benefit from going higher or lower.

The beauty of 1k is it cuts fast enough where you can wobble for a few strokes, taking two steps toward and one step back from the edge. Once you get close enough, you can hit the edge with one good steady stroke. Higher grit stones are harder to use because they're slower, need more strokes and thus more consistency.

Sharpening really isn't that hard, but we forum nerds tend to over-complicate it. In Japan, where you can buy a 1k King in every local hardware store, lots of housewives (less and less so today, but still quite a few) sharpen their own knives. And if you're cutting normal everyday human food, why exactly do you need to go past 1k?
 
jaybett said:
I don't know if I'll ever reach the point, where I can say I got it. There always seems something more to learn about free hand sharpening.
Click to expand...

Just speaking for myself, I don't necessarily agree with this statement. Yes, we are continuously improving, but I think I've reached the point where "I got it"...the simple part is understanding the mechanics or the concept, but the more important part is exceeding expectations consistently. My edges are way better than I would of imagined they would be...can get them ridiculously sharp with ease, they cut effortlessly and work exactly how I intended, and they make using them a joy. This is my own personal definition of "getting it"....now it is more about refining my skillset, rather than trying to gain it.
 
Cadillac J said:
Just speaking for myself, I don't necessarily agree with this statement. Yes, we are continuously improving, but I think I've reached the point where "I got it"...the simple part is understanding the mechanics or the concept, but the more important part is exceeding expectations consistently. My edges are way better than I would of imagined they would be...can get them ridiculously sharp with ease, they cut effortlessly and work exactly how I intended, and they make using them a joy. This is my own personal definition of "getting it"....now it is more about refining my skillset, rather than trying to gain it.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure jaybett wasn't saying that no one can master the art of sharpening, I think he just meant he's not sure if he will personally get there.
 
Andrew H said:
I'm pretty sure jaybett wasn't saying that no one can master the art of sharpening, I think he just meant he's not sure if he will personally get there.
Click to expand...

Right, and I just posted my thoughts based on something that Jay said, which is why I preceded with "just speaking for myself". I am not trying to start an argument...he stated his opinion and I replied with mine, just as I thought we were supposed to on a forum. He has been inspiring my threads/posts lately...thanks Jay!

And I also don't think I've mastered anything...I just know I get my knives to perform just like I want them to.
 
jaybett said:
Popular opinion is sharpening should be left to the pros. An article on sharpening that appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Norman Weinstein, the author of Mastering Knife Skills, stated that knives needed to be sharpened by professionals.

It was more common a few years ago, on the other forums, pictures of knives were posted by new sharpeners, that were over ground. Additionally posts made by experienced users, about sharpening problems, appeared to reinforce popular opinion.

When I got into sharpening a jig system was a very attractive option. Jon Broida posted that there are all sorts of sharpening jigs in Japan.

The main reason I went free hand, is that forum members that I trusted, kept recommending it. After taking a number of baby steps in learning to sharpen, I don't know if I'll ever reach the point, where I can say I got it. There always seems something more to learn about free hand sharpening.

Learning any subject requires experience, which means practice. How much a person practices depends on how much they care about the subject. No matter the subject, eventually a person will hit the wall. They are stuck until there skill set improves. At this point many people will quit and move on. To break through requires passion or drive.

Anybody can put a poor bevel and crappy edge on a knife. It takes a person with passion to learn how to sharpen an edge to 10000 grit, leave no scratches and easily slice a tomato.

Jay
Click to expand...

its true that many types of jigs exist in Japan, but not that many are used. The most common things you see used are a wooden board to make gripping the blade easier while sharpening on wheels and a wooden board for mounting the knife to keep it steady while polishing.

With woodworking tools, scissors, etc. there are other jigs that are commonly used.
 
Salty dog said:
I just couldn't read it all or much for that matter. All I know is that if you don't freehand you're half a man. Or quarter woman.
Click to expand...

This is why I miss Salty's posts. :lol2:

Good to see you here.
 
I had a huge post earlier that got lost to the internet. But I'll try to boil down my challenge/dissertation here.

Basically, I still have never heard an argument in favor of a jig that washes with the rest of the real world. I have heard plenty of "works for me" kind of thing, but I've never found out why jigs are better than the other two options: Freehand sharpening, or Professional Servicing. Jigs, compared to both, are more expensive. Some of you may think "oh freehanding gets pricey too, and EP stones are cheap" kind of thing. But let me explain both pro and home settings for the price. I'm using current prices on what are considered the best overall brand options by the knife community I've been exposed to.

You are a home cook, with a run-of-the-mill J-knife, like a Shun/Misono/Global. You need it sharpened, but don't want to freehand. Sending it to JKS will cost $25(for the most basic service), which is a 10k finish. Or you can get the EP that is on red-hot sale at CKTG for $265 with up to 10k Choseras. If you get your knives sharpened 2-3 times a year like most home cooks need, it will take you 3.5-5.3 years to start saving money. And Dave has master skills.
You want to save money in the long run? Well, a stone setup like mine cost me around a grand all told, but we're now talking a lifetime investment in myself. Just buying a good jig, like the EP or WEPS, will cost you several hundred dollars, and then you have to buy specially cut stones, because your hundreds of dollars got you a set of levers, clamps and swivels. If you buy EP stones, they are cheap--sticker price. But here's the breakdown of the 10k Chosera, priced out by wear(I.E. how much it costs to use up the stone):
Chosera 10k: Price: $265 Size(sq mm): 441,000.0 Stone per dollar(sq mm): 1,664.5
Chosera 10k for EP: Price: $50 Size(sq mm): 19,354.8 Stone per dollar(sq mm): 387.1

Now lets say you are a pro cook. Then the question is about work, which is time/effort vs dollars. It is not profitable for a person who gets paid $25 an hour to spend 3 hours sharpening a knife, because getting Dave to do it will only take you one hour(to make the money to pay him). If you don't make that much(say you make $8/hr), then you can sharpen yourself and save money. But buying a jig will cost you the price of 1-2 really great stones, or an entire set of serviceable stones, and may not do all your knives(like your traditional single bevels).


Money aside, if you learn to use a jig, you become a master of the jig, and not much else. You may get the concepts that are working, but you don't get the muscle control or experience from mistakes/accidents. If your shiny toy breaks, and the company is out of business, you must realize that you don't actually have any skills or abilities to speak of, you have to shop for another toy. Meanwhile, if you learn to freehand(which I really believe everyone with enough muscle control to write clearly can do), you can do like that yahoo earlier in the thread and sharpen on a rock from your yard if you want.

If you don't want to miss out on the experience, but aren't good at sharpening freehand, you can still send your main knife off to a pro for the the year or two that it will cost you to get your skills up on any other knives you have around. If you don't have the drive to learn to put a great edge on a knife in a year or two(especially with forum resources like this!), sharpening clearly isn't an interest of yours!

Add that up with the fact that you can't sharpen any traditional single bevels on it, can't sharpen non-knife things(like scissors) on them without other attachments, and that the slight convex of a freehanded edge creates ABSOLUTELY no performance draw, and you have got me stumped as to why anyone buys a jig.



When I was a kid, in boxing, we knew a guy we called "ADIDAS" because he had all ADIDAS gear, even underwear, and couldn't box for crap. We called that stuff "Tin Cup gear". You can buy fancy doohickeys all you want, and they might be a fun toy if you are the tinkering type, but they won't actually endow you with anything other than a lot of stuff to carry around.

I really would like to hear any reasons why anyone ever should buy a jig as opposed to sending it off to someone professional or learning to freehand other than "cause it's fun", "cause I like it", or "works for me".
 
It seems to me that by your logic, it makes little sense to buy stones, either -- just send off your knives to the professional sharpener and be done with it. Of course, that ignores two factors: most of us, home cook or pro, have a dozen knives or more, so the pro services would add up, and second, there's the convenience factor -- I don't want to wait a week or more to get my knives back if I have to ship them off to a sharpener in another city, nor do I want to spend a couple of hours in traffic if I have a local guy (using the L.A. definition of "local").
 
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