Jigs vs Freehand

[Pensacola Tiger]

Eamon,

People buy and use devices like the Edge Pro, the Wicked Edge and even the Chef's Choice because they want sharp knives, and these devices provide that for them. Not everyone has the patience or desire to learn to freehand sharpen.

Even if you freehand, the Edge Pro is useful for thinning and reprofiling.

Rick

 

[mikemac]

Hermosa Beach is a different planet as far as i am concerned... heck... even the valley is like a different state

aahhh....imparted wisdom from the center of the universe - Berverly Hills.

;>

 

[JBroida]

aahhh....imparted wisdom from the center of the universe - Berverly Hills.

;>

hahaha

 

[Eamon Burke]

It seems to me that by your logic, it makes little sense to buy stones, either -- just send off your knives to the professional sharpener and be done with it. Of course, that ignores two factors: most of us, home cook or pro, have a dozen knives or more, so the pro services would add up, and second, there's the convenience factor -- I don't want to wait a week or more to get my knives back if I have to ship them off to a sharpener in another city, nor do I want to spend a couple of hours in traffic if I have a local guy (using the L.A. definition of "local").

Very true. However, there is no stated reason why personal sharpening is done better with a jig.

People buy and use devices like the Edge Pro, the Wicked Edge and even the Chef's Choice because they want sharp knives, and these devices provide that for them. Not everyone has the patience or desire to learn to freehand sharpen.

If you just want a sharp knife, and don't have the patience, skill or desire to learn how to do it, then why not send it to a professional? You are going to have to become a journeyman sharpener to learn to use a high end jig anyways, so there is a decent level of personal and financial commitment. Even if you sharpen a huge quantity of knives, 1) the guy might give you a bulk discount, and 2) you are going to burn through those 5mm stones sharpening all the knives in a pro kitchen.



It may seem that I am being obstinate, but I still don't see what it DOES, and that kind of thing tends to bother me.

I know why people buy them--the same reason anyone buys anything: they want one. But what does it DO that is so fantastic?

Paying $300 for a slow re-profiling tool seems a bit overkill for the non professional sharpener, and even then, you can get a belt sander, an air compressor, and an Exair Spot cooler for less than the price of an EP Pro.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

If you just want a sharp knife, and don't have the patience, skill or desire to learn how to do it, then why not send it to a professional?

Probably because it is prohibitively expensive and inconvenient. Using your previous example, sending your knives out to a professional sharpener at $25 a knife three times a year will cost $225 for just a basic set of gyuto, petty and sujihiki. If you bought a high end Edge Pro Apex, then early in the second year, you've recouped your investment. Not to mention avoiding the huge inconvenience of being without your knives for at least a week three times a year.

You are going to have to become a journeyman sharpener to learn to use a high end jig anyways, so there is a decent level of personal and financial commitment.

I challenge that assertion. There is a small learning curve associated with the Edge Pro, but a tyro can put a perfectly acceptable edge on a knife the first time they try, at least in my experience. Granted, it is not the equal of the edge that Dave can put on a knife, but the edge is more than acceptable.

Even if you sharpen a huge quantity of knives, 1) the guy might give you a bulk discount, and 2) you are going to burn through those 5mm stones sharpening all the knives in a pro kitchen.

When did we start discussing sharpening all the knives in a pro kitchen?

It may seem that I am being obstinate, but I still don't see what it DOES, and that kind of thing tends to bother me.

I know why people buy them--the same reason anyone buys anything: they want one. But what does it DO that is so fantastic?

As I said, people buy and use devices like the Edge Pro, the Wicked Edge and even the Chef's Choice because they want sharp knives, and these devices provide that for them. If you can freehand sharpen, I can understand why you would have trouble accepting this, but I assure you it is real.

Paying $300 for a slow re-profiling tool seems a bit overkill for the non professional sharpener, and even then, you can get a belt sander, an air compressor, and an Exair Spot cooler for less than the price of an EP Pro.

Belt sanders require space to set them up and make an ungodly mess; they also require some modicum of skill to use.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Stones are therapy...
After a balls-to-the-wall busy night with tons of commotion, a quiet kitchen and an hour or two with the stones keeps one sane.
Plus, its exciting to go in the next day, knowing your knives are all freshly sharpened.

 

[TomQ]

Other than 'weird' , not sure what to call my method which seems neither free-hand or jig. I sharpen with Panavise, digital angle gauge, bullseye level, and a range of waterstones up to 8k. As a home user and sharpener, I tend to wait until a number of knives need sharpening and then it takes a few strokes to relearn the process. This always seems to produce good paper tests and attractive one-pass, ripe, tomato slices. :thumbsup2:

Seems like a midpoint between the two categories posted, but is the only way I feel confident with any blade over 200mm. Love to watch those impressive YouTube performances, but I also play keyboards so prefer to keep all 10 digits with no scars beyond band-aid size !

Tom B

 

[mikemac]

I've got that set up as well - it's freehand.

 

[BrianM]

I really would like to hear any reasons why anyone ever should buy a jig as opposed to sending it off to someone professional or learning to freehand other than "cause it's fun", "cause I like it", or "works for me".

Yes, I know I'm bumping an old thread, but this caught my attention.

First, I'm just a home cook with ~4 knives (plus my Leatherman). The last time they were sharpened was also the Only time they were sharpened.. and that was when they were made (back in the 90s). As my wife and I are finishing up on building our new home, I'm wanting to buy better knives AND care for them. I've been looking at the various jigs out there for the sharpening solution.

I don't know if this qualifies as a "should", but it qualifies as the thought process of a decidedly more "average" person. You know, one who had no clue there were mail-order sharpening until reading this particular thread (I've been reading on jigs and sharpening for about a week now, trying to build up a knowledge base). There are several reasons why I've been looking at the jigs. The first, and most important, is that I'm confident that I can have workable knives with less than 2 hours self-training. I don't need another "takes 10 years or 10,000 hours to become proficient" activity in my life, I'm a pistol shooter on the verge of breaking into the international level and that takes enough time, and provides all the "zen" I need. As for sending off my knives, it was an unknown option until less than an hour ago. I knew that having it done "locally" would be a 3-hour round trip drive to drop off and pick up if it couldn't be done the same day, that was never an option. I drive into the city roughly once every other year, and only then when I have no option otherwise. Mailing off knives sounds to be a headache too (I'm in the boonies of GA, everything takes 2~3 times longer and costs 2~3 times more), though it may be technically cheaper. But if I buy a jig, I can do it right now. If that jig ends up sitting around or I hate it, I'm confident that it's going to be worth 80% of what I spent when resold used. Money spent on having someone Else do the job is 100% lost, I learn nothing and lose time.

I know nothing about single bevel, asymmetrical, blah, blah, blah... (sorry, no disrespect to anyone, I'm just ignorant about it all) I probably won't spend more than $100/knife (would you even recommend it with my background?) A jig is a tool that helps me do a job. It's like using a stand mixer with dough hook to kneed your pizza dough for 15 minutes rather than sprinkling the dough with your sweat for the same 15 minutes (I like chewy pizza dough). Same end result, Much less time and effort. Seems like there are an Awful lot of very happy jig users out there across the internet (though, to be fair, I have been looking for threads on jigs so my viewpoint could be biased).

So, I'll ask a question.... it's what I've been trying to answer myself over the past week (and probably forward into the future). For the person who wants control over when knives are sharpened, doesn't want to deal with them having to leave the house, has zero experience and wants workable results in short order... what's your solution? Oh, and if I sharpen knives and do a passable job, I'm sure I'll have 5 other households (in-laws that live within a 5 mile radius) who'll ask me to do theirs, which is something I'd like to do for them. I honestly don't care if it's a jig, I just want the best solution for me. I have no horse in this race. :biggrin:

Brian ~ worst knife owner posting on the forums (today)

 

[PierreRodrigue]

Brian, there all all kinds of people useing jigs, the EP and likely others, will do exactly what you want. Give you a wicked sharp knife, the same way, every time. Period. If that is all your looking for, look no further.

 

[jmforge]

I'm glad this thread got resurrected. I have an Edge Pro setup that I got from a customer and I have not used it yet. I have no clue how to hand sharpen other than just smoothing things out after setting the edge on the belt grinder and some light stropping a leather on wood strop that I got from Woodcraft and some Starkey blue compound that I got from a buddy in the UK. Can I set a decent set of bevels with the EP and can I get a kitchen knife sharpened up enough so that I would not be embarrased to send it to one of your lunatics? In my case, time will definitely be money.

 

[mr drinky]

Thanks for the honest post. It's refreshing to hear about 'normal' knife owners who don't obsess about the minutia of knives and aren't crazy

I looked at the EP before starting sharpening when I was in your position and was convinced I would get it, but I decided on stones instead. You could probably find a stone setup or EP system and do just fine either way: both will work. For me, I knew I would be less likely to haul out the EP system and set it up than to pull out a couple of stones. The sharpening probably takes about the same time, but I can't vouch for set-up time (I don't own an EP). If you think setting up a jig with more control suits your 'sharpening' personality, then go with that. If you think pulling a stone from water and freehanding it suits your personality, then go with that. Either way you will soon have sharper knives that 99% of America.

k.

 

[jmforge]

I actually have a two sided King which I have used once. it is a 1000/6000 or 8000. It's at the shop and I can't remember. The coarse side is rather hard, but the fine side is quite soft and I "cut' into it a couple of times with my old Henckels. Kinda scary. In my case, I would attach the EP to my bench and leave the base in place.

Thanks for the honest post. It's refreshing to hear about 'normal' knife owners who don't obsess about the minutia of knives and are crazy

I looked at the EP before starting sharpening when I was in your position and was convinced I would get it, but I decided on stones instead. You could probably find a stone setup or EP system and do just fine either way: both will work. For me, I knew I would be less likely to haul out the EP system and set it up than to pull out a couple of stones. The sharpening probably takes about the same time, but I can't vouch for set-up time. If you think setting up a jig with more control suits your 'sharpening' personality, then go with that. If you think pulling a stone from water and freehanding it suits your personality, then go with that. Either way you will soon have sharper knives that 99% of America.

k.

 

[Mingooch]

Not a pro here. I both freehand and have an Edge Pro Pro. Freehand is surely more relaxing. It is almost a way to take away the stress of the day. However, in that still learning process, it is harder and involves more concentration to not make a mistake. The EPP is almost automated. Count the strokes, keep pressure even, measure the angle, change the stone, repeat. I certainly think the EPP gets a better edge with less experience. I cant comment on single bevels as I have not tried one on the EPP. Now Dave, dont cringe, but I have some natural j-stones for the EPP. Just got them and have not used them yet, but certainly cannot wait since they go from a nice nat aoto to a nice finishing stone in the 15k-20k range. I look forward to playing with those for sure. No Dave, you cant throw things at me for that sacrelige.

On EPP set up time vs freehand. That is a matter of perspective. My EPP can be set up in just a couple minutes and the stones are splash and go. The brands that need soaking, take less time since they are thinner. So vs freehand, it is fairly close. I dont permasoak my stones. If I am using a bester or bestone, freehand is slower since I soak those longer. With choseras, the EPP is faster since it is thinner. Dont have the shaptons .....yet.

 

[Dave Martell]

Now Dave, dont cringe, but I have some natural j-stones for the EPP. Just got them and have not used them yet, but certainly cannot wait since they go from a nice nat aoto to a nice finishing stone in the 15k-20k range. I look forward to playing with those for sure. No Dave, you cant throw things at me for that sacrelige.

:lol2:

 

[ghideon]

I think my knife collection is around $1000-$1500 total, for about 10 knives. It's not a crazy amount, but by my standards it is very nice. I've only been cooking at home for the last two years with my (now) wife.

After the first few 'nice' knives, I decided on an Edge Pro Apex w/Chosera stones. I could have bought another great knife for that kind of cash. The ability to place a good edge on a knife with little or no practice (I practiced first on crap knives) is amazing. I may yet switch to freehand, but not now. I don't get enough time really to work on my knives with the Edge Pro. Also, the prospect of rotating out knives to a professional sharpener doesn't appeal to me either; I use these knives every day, and some are 'my' knives and others are the 'wife' knives.

I freely admit I'm not hardcore enough. I've been prowling these forums, chow, egullet, knifeforums and FF for 2 years. In the end, I want more time sharpening, but I have to weigh that against prepping/cooking time. Especially when I'm the wrong end of a 50/60hr work week.

 

[compaddict]

I love my EP Pro. I don't have whatever it takes to keep a steady angle by hand.

 

[bcrano]

What are your guys typical EP routines like for a new knife? Or just generally?

 

[memorael]

The main problem I see with a jig is that ALL of them can only do one thing, that is make either a perfect plane or a series of perfect planes or using a mouse pad a perfect convex bevel. Using my hands I can do all of those things with infinite variance on any knife with any bevel or any shape. Get it as sharp as a jig and never achieve perfection. Besides I still have to see a jig that can sharpen round chisels, or a birds beak paring knife. The problem with jigs is that IMO they are a poor replacement for two hands and a brain. Besides I like the idea of infinitely trying to achieve perfection and never getting there, makes me try harder.

 

[SpikeC]

I sue jigs to sharpen chisels and plane blades that have very small registration planes. Learning to sharpen chisels free hand makes free handing knives pretty easy.

 

[Mingooch]

What are your guys typical EP routines like for a new knife? Or just generally?

bcrano, depends on how the OOTB edge is. Depends on how much I need to change the bevel. On harder steels, I like to use either a 13 or 11 deg edge per side. So much like with freehand I start with my low grit set the bevel and work my way up to whatever level of polish I want or need for that knife and its given use. On a knife I have an established bevel, it is just touch ups when needed. Usually 1-2k grit and up on those.

 

[jmforge]

It turns out that I have the EP Apex kit. So what should I do? Would you guys suggest buying the entire kit of Shapton stones? I need to be able to set the initial edge on kitchen knives without the wobble of the belt grinder if possible. Would one of the diamond plates be good for that initial operation in addition to using it for flattening stones?

 

[Mingooch]

*******, I have set a bevel with the stock stones just fine. I have not used the shaptons, but have read good things on them. I havent needed diamond plates so far, but on certain knives I bet they could make it easier as well. I sometimes use diamond plates when I freehand and know they are helpful.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

It turns out that I have the EP Apex kit. So what should I do? Would you guys suggest buying the entire kit of Shapton stones? I need to be able to set the initial edge on kitchen knives without the wobble of the belt grinder if possible. Would one of the diamond plates be good for that initial operation in addition to using it for flattening stones?

I found that the only Shaptons I need for kitchen knives are the 1k and 5k . If you want a super polish, get the 15k.

For edge repair and bevel setting, get an Atoma 140 cut for the Edge Pro rather than a DMT 120. The Atoma's scratch pattern seems to be a lot easier to polish out. Using the full size plate to set a bevel freehand defeats the purpose of the Edge Pro.

You can flatten the Shaptons just fine with 220 grit wet/dry on glass or granite.

 

[Justin0505]

I'm glad that this thread re-surfaced. I missed it the first time around and have actually been thinking about starting basically the same thing for awhile. However, I think that Dave said things much better than I would have, and set a great tone to the rest of the thread as well.

I'm perhaps a bit different than most of the posters here as I started freehand (sandpaper and oil stones as a kid, eventually waterstones 6 or so years ago) but then I also purchased a EP about 3 years ago.

Mikemac made a great post back on page 3 where he touched on a some of the benefits/ reasons behind using both jig and freehand.

Freehand? Jig?
For me the answer is YES!
I've used both methods for probably over 15 years, and they each have a place. I just added the EP, and that has to be one of the most versitile and "bang for the $$" jigs around. I find it very useful for re-setting bevels and angles - correcting mistakes of the past and setting a path for the future. I've also used it side by side with freehand. And I find it really convenient for throwing a great edge on either beaters or daily users when I don't really have the time to concentrate on freehand (which in my house is most of the time) Lately, I've had to tame my OCD for all things sharpening, tame my OCD for knife lust, and instead try to put a meal on the table to enjoy with the wife and kids before one has to go sports practice, another to a friends house and the third wants to sit and watch tv with me.

IMHO, the EP is a great solution for someone new to sharpening, new to J-knives or someone who thinks that steel rod thingy or a chefs choice are sharpening options.

While I truely prefer to freehand, my freehand experience makes me appreciate and do a better job using the EP...and the EP improves and makes me do a better job freehanding.

I like Marko's analogy. When I first started to cook, I followed a recipe for french toast. No I don't. But if I'm cooking something new, say a tagine or Indian, I follow a recipe first.

So I'll 2nd that notion but then add some of my thoughts and experiences too.

One of the biggest misconceptions that I feel people have about the EP is that there is a very short learning curve and very little skill or understanding involved in using it to it's full potential. I feel that there is less of a learning curve / motor skill development required with the EP than freehand and that you can be a "proficient novice" with the EP faster than you can be freehand. However, mastering the EP takes time and the same understanding of the mechanics of sharpening, steel, edge performance, and cutting application.

I had a pretty solid background in freehand sharpening and sharpening theory when I bought my EP so it was more a matter of learning the mechanics of the system than learning how to sharpen. My first day on the EP I put the sharpest, best edge on a knife that I had on any other up to that point in my life. However, almost 3 years later, I feel that I am still improving both my EP and my freehand skills.

For me the EP is BOTH
1) a "quick and easy edge-production system": the one I reach for when I've got a pile of junky, abused friends' knives to sharpen
and
2) a "scientific tool of edge geekdome": the one that I reach for when learning a new steel or knife, diagnosing and repairing a problem, or just really nerding out with thinning behind the edge, compound bevels, or maximum attainable sharpness.

I've also been playing around with some EP tricks. One is creating a changing or "rolling" bevel where the angle is more obtuse near the heel and more acute near the tip for a knife where the tip is used for detail work or vica versa where the belly is used for rocking. It's a bit hard to describe this method without pictures, video, or and understanding of how the EP system works, but to put it simply the edge angle on the EP is dependent both on the height of the pivot point of the moving stone arm as well as the distance of the edge from the table so by either hanging part of the blade off of the support table and / or adjusting the angle of the blade in relation to the arc of the stone arm.


However, once I've figured out the best combination of angles, convexity, and polish, I do most of my edge maintenance freehand with strops, hones, and stones. I recently purchased my first j-nat from Jon at JKI and I couldn't be happier with it. It's fantastic for finishing, smoothing out a compound bevel or quickly touching up an edge that's just past where a hone or strop can bring it back to 100%. Freehand sharpening might still be my favorite, but I also enjoy the EP. I have the "Pro" version which is largely hand built and assembled. There is an amazing about of care, thought and, pride that went into it's design and build. F&F is very precise and it feels like using an old, pre-CNC, machinists' tool.

If I had to make an analogy between EP and freehand I would compare swimming to rowing or running to riding a bike.

 

[jmforge]

I jus dusted off my EP Apex and noticed that it does not have the adjustable height "ramp" that I saw in the video for the Pro. Am I missing a part or does the Apex not have that feature?

 

[Justin0505]

It's been awhile since I compared the features, but from what I remember:
The apex's main table or ramp that the blade sits on does not tilt/adjust in height like the pro's and the stone arm length and max/min angle are slightly less.

However, you should have a little slidey piece that the spine rests against that determines how far over the edge of the table the blade edge protrudes.

I think Ben Dale has some videos of the complete apex setup on the edge pro site, but a quick google search returned this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY6DJ0PQxyA

edit note:
Starting off I also went at like 1/5 the speed of Ben. It took awhile to get a feel to get a full stroke and even pressure with the stone and to also not feel like I needed to hold the knife with a death grip.

 

[bieniek]

I use only stones on the knives that I own, doesnt matter whats the job ahead.

I dont do it cause its the best method, I just enjoy every bit, actually dont like to end the job, would sit and just polish and polish and polish and then just start over again.

As to systems I use Tormek to knives we use at work.

Owner of the company allowed me to buy T7 system with the 4k grit extra stone and jig.
At the beginning I was sceptical on what the machine could do, but it cuts fast, leaves you with nicely set bevels, and similarly to freehand sharpening, its all in your hands, even with jig you still have to control it totally. Too much pressure and its going pretty fast to damage point on edge.
I mean it cuts fast, even very destroyed Tojiro SD/masahiro knives were brought back to shaving sharp after 10 or less minutes.

Before I learned how to operate the jig properly, I would make the same mistake on few knives and round the tip off, but cause its public knives from work I werent paying sooooo much attention to it, and I think here is the reason I like Tormek so much, but I wouldnt use it for my own knives - it leaves you with decent edge and decent bevel, but its not beautiful work, it doesnt allow you to impersonate your style to sharpening, though its working well.

Unfortunately on knives that are longer, lets say above 20cm, you cannot help it and not make a mess with water running off the wheel onto the blade and on your work surface outside machine. There is piece of plastic that should fix it, but its very unpractical to use it, you would have to take it off every time you change side of blade.

The 4k stone works nicely, leaves mirror polish and edge cutting nicely. Ripe plum tomato aint no problem

You can sharpen 15 knives in 2 or 3 hours, [from a completely dead state] while I could never get that much done by hand, partly cause I couldnt let go.

I dont get pay to advertise the machine, but I think it works tremendously well everywhere you dont care about the looks or is the tip perfect. So just if you take care of the knives you sharpen in work time in your company.

 

[Dave Martell]

For the EP guys, you'll need to make some sort of build up for the table to be able to hit a really thin chef's knife at the correct angles. There's a name that people use for this (platform?) but I can't recall what it is. I always wondered why the company doesn't support this, I suspect that someday they'll make something available.

 

[jmforge]

How thick should it be, Dave?

For the EP guys, you'll need to make some sort of build up for the table to be able to hit a really thin chef's knife at the correct angles. There's a name that people use for this (platform?) but I can't recall what it is. I always wondered why the company doesn't support this, I suspect that someday they'll make something available.