JNS Kato Workhorse

[ChipB]

Thanks Maksim. Sorry we couldn't connect earlier. You carry some fantastic knives and have provided a great intro to the world of natural stones and some of the better smiths in Japan

 

[Andrey V]

Hi, folks
I use all the lines of Kato- i can admit, this is something which make you smile every time use grip it for cutting tasks.
The 210 Dragon ( my Dragon at least) is the lightest version of his all Gyutos. My favorite as well
Damascus is much havier, a very sturdy knife. Kikuryu is , of course, the samurai sword. Heavy, sturdy, aggresive, great.
Comparing Shigs and Kato- Kato is better in any sence. IMO, of course. I say it having them all ( almost . Inkl all the Yanagis ( 210/240/270/300), in Kasumi and Kitaeji. I like Kato just more. Even in Petty- the cut is different.. Kuro is better on Shigs, but Kato cuts better! I mean their Kuroushi lines. I will even sell some of my Shigs .
And the lines Maksim sells are by far not the lines you my find- i saw Kato in Shirogami 2- here he uses a different steel, the knives are harder, better done, you feel a real weapon in the hand while cutting.. There are my 2 cents

 

[rami_m]

I am so confused now. I love the single shig I got. Your words lead me to want to try a Kato but which one to get?

 

[labor of love]

I am so confused now. I love the single shig I got. Your words lead me to want to try a Kato but which one to get?

Its just one persons opinion. I personally would take a Shig Kasumi over any of the Kato lines.

 

[chefcomesback]

I am so confused now. I love the single shig I got. Your words lead me to want to try a Kato but which one to get?

If you can find one get a kikuryu or a new workhorse


Sent from my iPhone using Kitchen Knife Forum

 

[Von blewitt]

Its just one persons opinion. I personally would take a Shig Kasumi over any of the Kato lines.

Yeah, personal preference plays a big part, I have owned Shig Kasumi & Kitaeji, and Kato workhorse & Kikuryu, Wa & Yo from both makers. I know what i like, but I wouldn't say someone else was wrong for having a varying opinion. If there was one knife which was the best we'd all own it?

 

[rami_m]

Very true. But there are things every one agrees on like the Richmond knives or shuns. I don't need to own said knives but if someone I respect have an opinion I better listen. After all they are more experienced.

 

[chefcomesback]

Very true. But there are things every one agrees on like the Richmond knives or shuns. I don't need to own said knives but if someone I respect have an opinion I better listen. After all they are more experienced.

FWIW The japanese made As laser is a decent knife , but keep in mind everybody has different preferences you should take people's advice with a grain of salt


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[labor of love]

Yeah, personal preference plays a big part, I have owned Shig Kasumi & Kitaeji, and Kato workhorse & Kikuryu, Wa & Yo from both makers. I know what i like, but I wouldn't say someone else was wrong for having a varying opinion. If there was one knife which was the best we'd all own it?

FWIW Katos are definitely worth checking out. Especially the workhorse line. My only point is that we can come to different conclusions about things sometimes.

 

[CoqaVin]

any of the Japanese made ones that are re-branded are pretty good AFAIK, the L&G's are the ones you should stay away from IMHO

 

[Andrey V]

I am so confused now. I love the single shig I got. Your words lead me to want to try a Kato but which one to get?

Absolutely no need to be confused! Shigs and Katos are great anyway, you should have your preferences. I prefer Kato over Shige, but this are my preferences . I can explain( also technically ) why, but this is still not an advise.
Better try them out in action, then you'll know it for sure!

 

[rami_m]

Absolutely no need to be confused! Shigs and Katos are great anyway, you should have your preferences. I prefer Kato over Shige, but this are my preferences . I can explain( also technically ) why, but this is still not an advise.
Better try them out in action, then you'll know it for sure!

ok, send me a few and i will give it a shot . i would need to spend some time with each blade to work things out.

 

[Andrey V]

ok, send me a few and i will give it a shot . i would need to spend some time with each blade to work things out.

Aha

 

[sachem allison]

Guess losing a sale on either smith doesn't mean a lot as both sell quick, but that is short sighted. Tosho can thank JNS for the Kato 240 purchase (in stock on both sites) as Maxim couldn't be bothered to respond to multiple info requests for weeks.

Maxim has been on vacation and isn't around. He posted he will be gone and that is why you haven't gotten a response from him. As for the dubious nature of his Kato's be aware that he was the on that introduced Kato and that the the other sellers began selling their versions after the success of his line. He worked with the maker and designed the line with his specs. Others imitated. Do not question the quality or integrity of his products. Maxim is very guarded with the information about the specs of his stuff because he has had other vendors including one you mentioned steal his ideas, sources and products. Please before you bad mouth someone find out the facts.

 

[sachem allison]

Well, I jumped the gun here and I apologize. I did not see Maxims reply and the Op's response. I just don't like it when folks make unfounded claims and unfortunately, I did it myself.

 

[Andrey V]

Maxim has been on vacation and isn't around. He posted he will be gone and that is why you haven't gotten a response from him. As for the dubious nature of his Kato's be aware that he was the on that introduced Kato and that the the other sellers began selling their versions after the success of his line. He worked with the maker and designed the line with his specs. Others imitated. Do not question the quality or integrity of his products. Maxim is very guarded with the information about the specs of his stuff because he has had other vendors including one you mentioned steal his ideas, sources and products. Please before you bad mouth someone find out the facts.

I confirm it!!

 

[echerub]

I'm pretty sure the one vendor mentioned a few posts up hasn't stolen anything or any ideas. I've seen and handled the Katos there and they are noticeably different from the workhorse line. They are of the "standard" lower-height Kato profile as opposed to the workhorse profile. The folks who run the place were also introduced to Kato himself by one of the other makers whom they work closely with - and who praises Kato quite highly - so saying any ideas were stolen here is rather misplaced.

 

[schanop]

I'm pretty sure the one vendor mentioned a few posts up hasn't stolen anything or any ideas. I've seen and handled the Katos there and they are noticeably different from the workhorse line. They are of the "standard" lower-height Kato profile as opposed to the workhorse profile.

Thank Len, great to hear that they are different out loud from someone who has handle them besides vendors themselves.

 

[maxim]

Thanks Len

My point is also that they are very different then other Katos thats what i try to explane
I worked with Kato quite long time on our knives, before i start to sell them.

I think we went for 4 or 5 prototypes before i got them in the store. And it was both me and Kato that made the improvements.

I'm pretty sure the one vendor mentioned a few posts up hasn't stolen anything or any ideas. I've seen and handled the Katos there and they are noticeably different from the workhorse line. They are of the "standard" lower-height Kato profile as opposed to the workhorse profile. The folks who run the place were also introduced to Kato himself by one of the other makers whom they work closely with - and who praises Kato quite highly - so saying any ideas were stolen here is rather misplaced.

 

[maxim]

I think it was ok for him to make that post As i have to remind people and my self sometimes that it is totaly one man show.
And maybe i have to make it more clear on my website

Well, I jumped the gun here and I apologize. I did not see Maxims reply and the Op's response. I just don't like it when folks make unfounded claims and unfortunately, I did it myself.

 

[ChipB]

So, want to say a few things. First, I apologize for the rather aggressive tone of my back-to-back posts early on as it regards my purchase. It was a bit late at night after a few drinks and much time spent trying to decipher which Kato I wanted to purchase and was a bit antsy.
Second, the Kato I did buy is absolutely unreal. Still getting to know the knife (and the Shig for that matter), but my initial impression is that the Kato is indeed a better cutter than the Shig. This says a lot as my Kato is a 210 and my Shig Kasumi is a 240 and I have a strong preference for larger format knives. While the Kato is a better cutter, I can't yet say it is the better knife as the Shig seems like a more complex, nuanced blade which is considerably lighter. That said, I'm so impressed with the Kato in 210, that I'm going to be grabbing one in 240 in very short order.
Third, Maksim, you have been very knid in your responses to my posts and provided great color into how your line of knives differ from Kato's own production. Indeed, owning a non-workhorse, I can certainly verify that the stat line at least is very different from your spec knives.
Fourth, to the fanboys that want to jump down my throat, I'm curious what is was about anything I posted prior that was "uninformed"? Knowing that there are multiple iterations of a bladesmith's knives out there, would I not be remiss in performing my due diligence on the differences before making a purchase? Indeed, if during that diligence process, I could not receive concrete answers to some of the questions I have about a highly modified version of a master's work, would I be foolish to decide to trust the master's own design developed over decades of refinement instead of a few anonymous guys on a forum?

 

[labor of love]

Fourth, to the fanboys that want to jump down my throat, I'm curious what is was about anything I posted prior that was "uninformed"? Knowing that there are multiple iterations of a bladesmith's knives out there, would I not be remiss in performing my due diligence on the differences before making a purchase? Indeed, if during that diligence process, I could not receive concrete answers to some of the questions I have about a highly modified version of a master's work, would I be foolish to decide to trust the master's own design developed over decades of refinement instead of a few anonymous guys on a forum?

You started a thread because you wanted to know the differences between the Kato lines. We had an intelligent discussion where your questions were answered. I feel that perhaps next time if you can try to be more respectful to Maxim and others that you too will also be met with respect. You also used quotation marks around uniformed but no one accused you of being "uniformed"?
Hopefully you understand by now that the different Kato lines are just that, different. One line isnt any better than the other but information was revealed in this thread to make your decision making easier which is what you wanted. If you want to pick up more non workhorses Katos thats your decision.

 

[labor of love]

Also I would like to say that I think "highly modified version of a master's work" is very misleading. As discussed earlier the Workhorse is entirely different in grind, performance, hardness, steel and profile. Its just a different knife altogether. Seeing as "a few anonymous guys on a forum" doesnt sway your decision any, let me ask you this....Do you think this knife would be in production if the bladesmith didnt stand behind his work?

 

[labor of love]

"uninformed" not uniformed. sorry.

 

[Andrey V]

You started a thread because you wanted to know the differences between the Kato lines. We had an intelligent discussion where your questions were answered. I feel that perhaps next time if you can try to be more respectful to Maxim and others that you too will also be met with respect. You also used quotation marks around uniformed but no one accused you of being "uniformed"?
Hopefully you understand by now that the different Kato lines are just that, different. One line isnt any better than the other but information was revealed in this thread to make your decision making easier which is what you wanted. If you want to pick up more non workhorses Katos thats your decision.

Very good and intelligent answer indeed.
The matter is who has modified the knives . Not Maxim, not you, not me. Kato-san himself. . Don't you suppose that Kato-san had done his other lines following somebody's requests?? Finally, he sells his knives to the clients, dealers, to get his money for this job. Maksim has asked him to improve it due to expectations, why not to believe that he stands behind this product?? He has his Kanji on it, so this is his product, done by great Craftman. And everybody is free to agree or disagree with improvements, to get or not to get it, as labor of love said very correctly.

 

[Andrey V]

The answer was adressed to ChipB, of course

 

[ChipB]

The matter is who has modified the knives . Not Maxim, not you, not me. Kato-san himself. . Don't you suppose that Kato-san had done his other lines following somebody's requests?? Finally, he sells his knives to the clients, dealers, to get his money for this job. Maksim has asked him to improve it due to expectations, why not to believe that he stands behind this product?? He has his Kanji on it, so this is his product, done by great Craftman. And everybody is free to agree or disagree with improvements, to get or not to get it, as labor of love said very correctly.

So, this is a very good point and well taken. That said, to call it an improvement may be a bit of a stretch, and exactly what I was getting at. If it were such an improvement, why not begin to alter his signature design to more closely resemble the custom run? Not that I doubt Maksim when it comes to understanding the character of what a bladesmith is doing and, along with the smith, altering the design such that it meets certain demands that the buyer may have, but I tend to think a highly regarded swordsmith and bladesmith with the pedigree of Kato may know a thing or two about making knives and, assuming a custom run will be an improvement over the original is basically saying you know more about what makes a great knife than the smith.
It is also worth mentioning that Kato will do knives made to specification for customers of distributors, including thinner blades etc. So assuming that because he produced them, makes them the epitome of his personal style and craft probably isn't correct.

 

[James]

So, this is a very good point and well taken. That said, to call it an improvement may be a bit of a stretch, and exactly what I was getting at. If it were such an improvement, why not begin to alter his signature design to more closely resemble the custom run? Not that I doubt Maksim when it comes to understanding the character of what a bladesmith is doing and, along with the smith, altering the design such that it meets certain demands that the buyer may have, but I tend to think a highly regarded swordsmith and bladesmith with the pedigree of Kato may know a thing or two about making knives and, assuming a custom run will be an improvement over the original is basically saying you know more about what makes a great knife than the smith.
It is also worth mentioning that Kato will do knives made to specification for customers of distributors, including thinner blades etc. So assuming that because he produced them, makes them the epitome of his personal style and craft probably isn't correct.

It seems like the only way you'll be satisfied is if you try a JNS Kato and compare it with the one you got from the other vendor. Kato's standard line may be geared to perform one way, while Maxim's line has some changes which he feels are an improvement. Different strokes for different folks.

Anyways, if I were to get one, I'd get it from JNS. I trust Maxim enough to believe that his Kato, for me, would perform better than the standard one. Plus, JNS ones are cheaper and sport a sexier steel.

 

[labor of love]

The wording of "improvement" was just an expressed opinion. Im not sure why you believe the Workhorse line was entirely Maxims brainchild. And Im not sure why youre having a hard time putting your head around the idea that a blade smith cant make 2 entirely different yet awesome knife lines with different steels, heat treats, grinds, profiles etc etc. If a blade smith accepts the custom work at all it is only because he feels he can make a great knife with whatever the custom specs are, alot of custom work/custom specs are denied very often.

 

[ChipB]

You started a thread because you wanted to know the differences between the Kato lines. We had an intelligent discussion where your questions were answered. I feel that perhaps next time if you can try to be more respectful to Maxim and others that you too will also be met with respect. You also used quotation marks around uniformed but no one accused you of being "uniformed"?
Hopefully you understand by now that the different Kato lines are just that, different. One line isnt any better than the other but information was revealed in this thread to make your decision making easier which is what you wanted. If you want to pick up more non workhorses Katos thats your decision.

Look, I do appreciate the fact that I got a bit aggressive and apologized for that and will apologize again. That said, my questions, until Maksim joined the discussion, were largely not answered. All I could glean was that the workhorse is heavy but still performs well. No one could say, beyond selection of steel, how the knife differed except for Maksim.
You're right that it is unlikely one line of Kato knives would be seen as clearly superior to the next, but that really wasn't my point at all. The workhorse is a custom run and , as such, is a departure from what I'm assuming the smith thinks is an optimal design for general production. Do the people who own the workhorse love it? Yes. That I had no doubt when I started the thread. The problem is, I think only one person who responded, much later in the thread, had even handled a Kato that wasn't a workhorse. All I wanted to know, given that the workhorse is indeed custom, was how it stacks up to Kato's non-custom knives. It would be like a certain Ferrari retailer deciding that they wanted a spec version of a Ferrari F458. Would it probably be a great car? Sure. Is it better than the nearly hand built car from the factory? I'd be skeptical which is only fare.