I'm not dissatisfied at all with anything. Just an opinion. But you're right. Only way to know is try both
JNS Kato Workhorse
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I'm not dissatisfied at all with anything. Just an opinion. But you're right. Only way to know is try both
Jesus dude. I'm not trying to piss on your dead grandmother. I fully appreciate that a knife maker can handle different styles of knives. I'm also not saying that the workhorse is better or worse, but was trying to explain my hesitancy in purchasing one vs. one of Kato's own without more detail or an objective view on what separates them. Maksim did provide a lot of color but, he is the designer and retailer so not completely objective, and I'd already pulled the trigger at that point.
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I feel like youre answering your question/concerns here. If you want a knife that embodies purely the blade smiths vision for a knife then maybe you should go straight to the source or atleast as close as possible. And I understand wanting user feedback before investing that much cash in a new knife, I also try and do the same thing. Good luck in finding feedback on that. You may want to start a different thread outside of this sub forum though(Im not being snarky, and yes I realize the mods probably moved this thread to this subforum as workhorse pertains to JNS). And perhaps check several other forums as well.
Labor, you're right on the thread move and the general intent of the thread. I did re-read what I wrote early on and was not proud of the tone and understand that isn't the best way to go about starting a decent dialogue on the subject. Appreciate the suggestion and absolutely do plan on grabbing a workhorse as I think Y.Fujiwara knives are pretty absurd and the iteration produced by JNS is completely unique to say the least. Not to mention, Kato is what, 75? how much longer will any of us be able to grab his stuff?
Building off the my last post, let me start fresh with you guys. I love what Maksim has done in promoting some of the best bladesmiths in japan for consumption by a Western audience. I'd love to know more about the genesis of the Workhorse line designed by Kato and how it evolved from his basic line to meet the requirements of JNS clientele. Only briefly owning a Kato in 210, albeit non-Workhorse, I am tending to agree that his knives outperform Shigefusa Kasumi in cutting ability, though they are really two very different knives. I'd love to stack a Kato against the heavier Kitaeji which sports a pattern that is pretty close to Kato, Mizuno etc.
Again, I apologize for the antagonistic, then defensive tone. The intent of the thread didn't start that way and really devolved because I got drunk and testy.
Again, I apologize for the antagonistic, then defensive tone. The intent of the thread didn't start that way and really devolved because I got drunk and testy.
I did grab another standard Kato W#2 in 240 yesterday, only because I was so immensely impressed with the 210 and didn't want to mess with a good thing. I imagine that is how many Workhorse owners feel. I am very excited to try a Workhorse. I think though, based on need, my first foray into the line might with the 270 suji. Really need a slicer upgrade (still clinging to a Global) as I put one to work anywhere between 1-3x per week. I will keep my fingers crossed that it remains in stock!
Chefu
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I got one of Maxim's western Kato with the white ebony handle. They are much thinner than the wa version. I really want to pick up another in wa with the thicker blade to try. It's funny about the western Kato. I've got several knives that do many things better than the Kato but I still find myself reaching for it over and over. I just like how it feels / looks / and how it cuts product. It has one of those intangible qualities that just draws me to use it.......
There has been some heated discussion going on here, but it seems like things got sorted out, so let me add one question on the Kato workhorse topic.
Whether WA or western - it seems that all 240 Kato gyutos weight some 270g. What I would like to ask is - how do you guys find the weight? My current gyuto is ca 250g (it went back to be thinned so it will probably loose a bit of weight) and find that definitely on the heavy side. I would actually love to try Kato one day, but fear the weight would be too much ...
Whether WA or western - it seems that all 240 Kato gyutos weight some 270g. What I would like to ask is - how do you guys find the weight? My current gyuto is ca 250g (it went back to be thinned so it will probably loose a bit of weight) and find that definitely on the heavy side. I would actually love to try Kato one day, but fear the weight would be too much ...
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The 240mm workhorse is about as heavy as I would ever want a gyuto to weigh. I used a 270mm Kato for awhile and I just couldnt adapt to its weight.
Chefu
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Both western and wa weigh in at around 270. The spine on my western is 2.95 mm above the heel / 2.15 half way down / and 1.45 about 1 cm from the tip. It has a full tang and western handle. The knife is still blade forward heavy. With that said it just feels good when using it. It certainly heavy by most Japanese knife standards but it feels like it can take on just about anything!
@matus
Concerning the weight of the kato workhorse i personally adapted really quickly to the weight it felt awkward maybe for two or three days and has been an absolute joy to use since.There is no Gyuto i prefer using for a prep intense day.I also dont think the difference between a 250g and a270g would be that different.Before the Kato i was mainly using a heiji 240mm which is about 210g.I also have shig 240mm which weighs about the same as the heiji and a kagekiyo which is super light(170g i think).I love all of them for different reason but If i had to choose to keep only one,it would definitely be the kato.If you want to test it pm me seeing your in the germany i could send it over to you and you can give it a spin for a week or two.
Concerning the weight of the kato workhorse i personally adapted really quickly to the weight it felt awkward maybe for two or three days and has been an absolute joy to use since.There is no Gyuto i prefer using for a prep intense day.I also dont think the difference between a 250g and a270g would be that different.Before the Kato i was mainly using a heiji 240mm which is about 210g.I also have shig 240mm which weighs about the same as the heiji and a kagekiyo which is super light(170g i think).I love all of them for different reason but If i had to choose to keep only one,it would definitely be the kato.If you want to test it pm me seeing your in the germany i could send it over to you and you can give it a spin for a week or two.
matt79, that is very generous from you. You will soon have a PM 
Hey Matus, non-workhorse Kato are a bit lighter. My 210 in W#2 is about 200 grams or so and the 240 I have coming is around 225 grams. Not light by any stretch. Something I noticed which is a bit quirky, the 210 in W#2 is actually a shade heavier than the 210 Workhorse, but the 240 in W#2 is a good bit lighter. Makes me want to try the workhorse side by side with the W#2 blades even more.
I had the same reservation about weight as you which is one of the main reasons I went with the W#2 versions. Hoping I can mess around with a workhorse in 240mm sooner rather than later. Maybe I can swing by Sachem's joint once the 240 gets back from a re-handle to compare the two versions and report back
ChipB - did you get your Kato knives from Maksim or elsewhere?
Matus, one thing worth noting, those retailers also are about 25% more expensive than JNS (though with VAT, as you are in the EU, it might even out a bit). That's another thing that made the decision very hard for me. That's quite a premium to pay for familiarity.
Not sure if any of you guys have checked out Masakage's Kujira line, but they've piqued my interest as well. I love the edge profile on Masakage and find them to be pretty close to Kato in that regard (at least the edge profile on my Shimo was very similar). The Kujira is definitely a heavier knife as well. Think the 240 clocks in around 220 grams. Can't seem to find anyone who has a lot of experience with this line though.
maxim
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hmm i think by now with soooo many of my blogs, videos, info on website, i have explained enough but apparently not
Kato workhorse is just high end Kato knife. Upgraded FF, upgraded steel (more expensive steel was used), more handmade process and just more care been taken when making it. Thats about it
small profile changes was made but that was due to the sizes of knives etc
It is like buying KU knife or Kasumi knife etc etc.
Don't see really why so many confusion
Kato workhorse is just high end Kato knife. Upgraded FF, upgraded steel (more expensive steel was used), more handmade process and just more care been taken when making it. Thats about it
small profile changes was made but that was due to the sizes of knives etc
It is like buying KU knife or Kasumi knife etc etc.
Don't see really why so many confusion
hmm i think by now with soooo many of my blogs, videos, info on website, i have explained enough but apparently not
Kato workhorse is just high end Kato knife. Upgraded FF, upgraded steel (more expensive steel was used), more handmade process and just more care been taken when making it. Thats about it
small profile changes was made but that was due to the sizes of knives etc
It is like buying KU knife or Kasumi knife etc etc.
Don't see really why so many confusion
Thanks Maksim and your videos are great! I think the confusion just gets introduced when looking at the weight on the 240 and 270 vs. the lighter versions of his standard knives. Your answers before were very helpful. I'd also add, that it seems as though your Workhorse line is the most widely used (at least on this side of The Pond) so it is very difficult to find an unbiased impressions of the Workhorse vs. a standard W#2 from a customer.
Based upon what you have said, it sounds like the same sort of distinction that is drawn between the various Teruyasu Fujiwara lines. But TF knives are more widely distributed across all of his lines which makes it much easier to get a sense for what delineates them.
Again, thanks for the response, and sorry for the tone I set earlier on in the post.
No confusion at all, Maksim. I am just trying to find a last excuse NOT to buy a workhorse Kato from you It is even worse that you seem to have some available most of the time
It is even worse that you seem to have some available most of the time No confusion at all, Maksim. I am just trying to find a last excuse NOT to buy a workhorse Kato from you
Don't even try, Matus, just take it!
With matt79 on this one. While the cladding will respond to certain ingredients OOTB, it doesn't have the same violent reactivity of other iron clad knives I have. The worst I've seen is a Masakage Shimo which produced sludge and foul odor when it touched pretty much anything early on. My Shig was also more reactive when it comes to ingredient discoloration etc. than the Kato. Regardless, I force a patina no matter what on iron cladding now. Think users that say reactivity isn't an issue, and a damp wipe followed by a dry wipe during cutting keeps the blade pristine, are either cutting proteins first, non-reactive ingredients for the knife in question, or are completely full of it. Own at least five iron clad blades from different makers now, and if, early cuts are done on certain onions or sweeter fruits, there is nothing that will stop an immediate formation of a brown patina on the iron upon contact.
James
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just curious, have you tried a light ferric chloride/vinegar etch? That may help things along
James, haven't tried an etch yet. But am planning to. No particular reason why I haven't yet, and probably should've as it is the more efficient solution. Dicked around with various bizarre methods using different proteins, blade temperature etc. to achieve a specific hue with varying degrees of success. That said, those methods take an absurdly long time and cost some coin on top of it.
nerologic
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I took a chef's advice and sliced 10 lbs of onions into 1/8" ribbons with my new Shig, making sure to contact the full blade with the onions as it sliced. Don't dilly dally, do it fast and steadily (or you'll be there all night). It stank like sulfur at first, but that subsided. It was enough of an onslaught that the Shig built up a bulletproof patina, and a bluish one at that, no brown. I could let the juice sit on there for 30 mins (and even dry on, as a test) without any rust. That's a semi-forced patina, I'd say, since I'm a home cook and usually only need 1-2 onions. I hear people paint the juice on, but I think a consistent barrage of fresh juice may be more helpful, maybe because it wipes the surface of the knife clean.
Then I made caramelized onions with the whole bucket of ribbons. That part took far more work than setting the patina. Any little bit of discoloration from the first few slices didn't make any difference, since the whole mess was going to end up deep brown anyway. And now I have both a years supply of caramelized onions and a stable blade. Win-win, I'd say (except the whole house smelled a bit funky for the evening). Anyone who wants to drop by for French onion soup, just let me know.
Then I made caramelized onions with the whole bucket of ribbons. That part took far more work than setting the patina. Any little bit of discoloration from the first few slices didn't make any difference, since the whole mess was going to end up deep brown anyway. And now I have both a years supply of caramelized onions and a stable blade. Win-win, I'd say (except the whole house smelled a bit funky for the evening). Anyone who wants to drop by for French onion soup, just let me know.
You missed Carnegie's book?
You can clean a certain immediate patinas off with various acidic ingredients, and remove most visible elements of a patina after a night's work with a baking soda slurry. The entirety of the patina is usually not removed though which gives the impression that the blade is pristine but, acidization hasn't actually been fully removed, hence the erroneous assumption that fastidiously cleaning a blade after use "breaks it in" and will keep it Summer's Eve fresh.
To your experience with onions, I have no doubt you built a strong patina. Plowed through a lot of produce and protein with my shig, and yellow seems to be the color the cladding wants to take. I'd love it if a blue patina from pounds of onions on fresh iron with that knife happened for me.
