Misconception about Kitchen Knives

[Don Nguyen]

Stampings usually have very low alloy content, particularly very low Mn content for deep drawing properties. You want a low shear strength to facilitate easy cutting of the sheet.

-AJ

What about the low alloy content makes them bad? 1095 and W2 are pretty low in Mn and other alloying elements but they seem to work fine - is there something else besides annealing them that has to be done, compromising the end result?

I just figure that if you can just stamp out the shape, it'd be the same as removing the steel via machining/grinding.

 

[stevenStefano]

Not sure if it fits here, but I take issue with the assumption that rock chopping is bad and shouldn't be practiced. Many times it is much much quicker and more efficient than push cutting. Sometimes people talk about when they used to do it in the past, as if it is something to be ashamed of

 

[ThEoRy]

Steel can be both high carbon and "stainless". ZDP-189 for example contains more than twice as much carbon than white #1 but is stain resistant by virtue of the high (20%) chromium content in the alloy.

Sorry I should have added some context. I'm not referring to the $900 gyuto. I'm talking about the marketing speak companies like cutco and whatever the hell Rachael Ray and guy fiere are using.

 

[ajhuff]

What about the low alloy content makes them bad? 1095 and W2 are pretty low in Mn and other alloying elements but they seem to work fine - is there something else besides annealing them that has to be done, compromising the end result?

I just figure that if you can just stamp out the shape, it'd be the same as removing the steel via machining/grinding.

1095 is not a deep draw steel. 1005 is.
AEB-L is not a deep draw steel, 430 is.

Stamped steel has very low carbon.


-AJ

 

[JBroida]

i know guys that stamp 19c27, white #2, A2, and many other high quality steels

 

[EdipisReks]

Stampings usually have very low alloy content, particularly very low Mn content for deep drawing properties. You want a low shear strength to facilitate easy cutting of the sheet.

-AJ

sounds like a personal problem. most of the people i know who deal with stampings are in the aerospace field, so maybe things are just different, elsewhere.

 

[user 1925]

i know guys that stamp 19c27, white #2, A2, and many other high quality steels

Likewise, I am familiar with knives made out of these steels that are stamped.

I actually don't own any stamped knives currently, but I have owned and used many and all were pretty much great knives with excellent steels.

 

[ajhuff]

Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

 

[El Pescador]

Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

That's the point. Many of us have our own misconceptions. I am constantly being reminded on the forum of many things I thought were true being not so. That's what makes a forum like this great.

 

[user 1925]

Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

AJ,

I hope you took my earlier comment as being tongue-in-cheek. I was reminded of a line in one of Wes Anderson's recent films.

Of course it is always difficult to discern subtle humour on the internet. I'm always open to learning something new...

Regards!

 

[mpukas]

Well what can I say.. :surrendar:

-AJ

I think there's a misconception between your professional use of the term stamped and the way it's used here in this context of kitchen knives. We use the term stamped loosely to refer to a knife where the pattern has be somehow cut from either a sheet of metal or bar stock. That method could be stamped with a press and a pattern, or a pattern could be traced and then cut with an angle grinder, or laser or water jet cut.

Furthermore, stamped is not accurate to describe mono-steel knives (I suppose there are pre-fab clad metal sheets - I think Carter uses them for his SS knives, among others) that are not hand forged because there are some makers that hand forge the blank, and then put it in a press with a pattern, and stamp the final shape.

Our little bubble is filled with many misused words. Stamped is going to generally refer to mono-steel steel knives that are fabricated from sheet or bar stock metal, using a press or a cutting method to create a pre-determined pattern, and then ground or milled to finished geometry. Accuracy be damned!

I find no truth what so ever that a forged knife is better in any way, shape, or form than a stamped and ground knife. Just as much care, expertise and skill goes into creating a knife from bar stock as does from forging – perhaps less steps. Nothing drives me more nuts that someone who is very skilled in a certain craft and a particular way of doing something, but the end result has some quirky features that the maker may be adamant about, but actually are not providing anything beneficial to the final product (Jon can relate tho this :wink: ).

 

[ajhuff]

Ahhh.... Sorry I did not know that knife nuts had redefined stamping. This is a good example of stamping:
[video=youtube;N21EivLa9Rs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EivLa9Rs[/video]

And it what I was referring to. This is how your mass market knives at superstores are made.

-AJ

 

[bieniek]

We are not talking here in absolute terms, are we? When you have a handle with components (one piece construction vs scales) that will not separate and create gaps and the handle from inside is filled with epoxy that can move with the movement of the wood without cracking, in my world that would be a pretty sealed handle. The joint between the handle and bolster are sealed with epoxy.

I totally agree but why not use same epoxy to connect wood and metal on scales-type handle?
So maybe safer to say that both types mishandled or sloppily made - like some WA handles straight from Japan with big holes between wood and ferrule... Or like Wictorinox type scales where in new knife they already
will not be hygienic.

But both properly made might be safe.
Could that be acceptable way to put it?

On microscopic level there always will be voids and gaps for bacteria to hide, so if that what you mean by impossibility of bacteria-free environment, I would have to agree with you.

M

That is exactly what I meant. When people talk bacteria, they see those big monsters from TVcommercial tat are swimming in your toilet, or this sludge that forms in the gaps on the handle.
But I would prefer to say that without a brush and a bleach after evvery use, you will never eliminate cotamination given the real size of a bacteria unit.

By the way, you would have to sterilize your knife with a metal handle for it to be completely bacteria-free.

M

Yes, by using chlorine solution for example but I find no point in doing so. Good scrub is the way for me. Thats why my wooden handles look bad and thats why I am not fond of precious woods, when I scrub them 20x a day.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I was under the impression that good steel is stamped out before heat treatment,the steel is in a whole diff. ballpark after treatment,this goes for quality carbon & quality stain resistant steels.

I've bought some less expensive forged carbon blades,had to fill in tang bolster area wt. Epoxy Resin.Other fit & finish issues,no big deal as long as the steel is good.

Bolsters are overrated,Used rosewood handle Forchner's in kitchens,before I switched to J-Carbon Gyuto's.The scales do get bacteria & gaps after much use.The Fibrox handles are cheaper & more sanitary.

We had classes in food safety.Hotel spent some bucks for that,were even using color coded plastic cutting boards.

 

[franzb69]

i'm with salty here.

 

[toddnmd]

One misconception I often see/hear is about the importance of "balance."

 

[daddy yo yo]

When people talk bacteria, they see those big monsters from TVcommercial tat are swimming in your toilet

OFF TOPIC: i recently saw on TV that bacteria contamination on our beloved smartphone touchscreens exceeds by far bacteria contamination on public (!) toilet seats...

i agree that i expect, as a customer, a high level of hygiene in a professional kitchen. but i am not sure if the knife handle makes that much of a difference. but i don't know much about it...

btw, during a recent visit to a high class restaurant in austria i had the chance to take a look into the kitchen through a window on the way to the restrooms. while that improves customers' confidence and trust (it gives you the impression that there's nothing to hide), one of the things you definitely do not want to see is a sweating and overweight cook/assistant digging a spoon into the pot, shoving the whole spoon into his mouth, and then digging again into the very same pot and placing the food on the plates for the customers... i watched closely for 2 or 3 minutes, and while i can understand that he was hungry at 11 pm, this is not what i want to see...

 

[Don Nguyen]

Ahhh.... Sorry I did not know that knife nuts had redefined stamping. This is a good example of stamping:
[video=youtube;N21EivLa9Rs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N21EivLa9Rs[/video]

And it what I was referring to. This is how your mass market knives at superstores are made.

-AJ

What I was getting at before was, couldn't this process be done with 1095? How is this stamping any different from what Japanese makers use when they cut out their profiles with a hydraulic press, besides number?

Not trying to poke too hard, but I wasn't aware about specific deep drawing steels being used for mass stamping, and if it can only be done with those steels. I like thinking about production methods, so I'm curious.

 

[mhlee]

One misconception I often see/hear is about the importance of "balance."

I personally think balance, which, to me, is the weight distribution between the blade and the handle, is extremely important. A well balanced knife is easier to control, which makes it easier to do delicate or precise cuts, and also results in less overall hand fatigue.

Personally, I don't think enough importance is placed on balance.

 

[Zwiefel]

I personally think balance, which, to me, is the weight distribution between the blade and the handle, is extremely important. A well balanced knife is easier to control, which makes it easier to do delicate or precise cuts, and also results in less overall hand fatigue.

Personally, I don't think enough importance is placed on balance.

What I've learned about balance is that people think there is only one correct way to balance a knife. But much depends on the way the knife was intended to be used and the personal style of the user. I used to think that the balance point should be exactly at the place where your thumb-tip falls in a pinch grip...and that is a great balance point for many purposes...but if you want to do chopping/pushcutting, it's better for the balance to move forward a bit.

I don't have much experience with it, but I imagine that for a boning knife, you might want the balance a bit farther back...maybe also true for smaller pettys and parers as those are also for "in hand" work.

:newhere:

 

[cookinstuff]

When I broke the scales off my old trusty boning knife I was shocked, I kept this thing clean, the tang looked great, rivets all good. Tiny gap at the top, just small hole inbetween the scales. Once the scales were removed, the whole tang was covered in black nasty crud and rust, you couldn't even tell from the spine of the tang, it looked great and clean. Needless to say, if there is room for any amount of anything to get in, it will get bad in 10 years. I prefer wa handles, but I know some of those tiny microscopic gaps are going to be issues in 10-20 years, but whatever, new handle.

 

[labor of love]

before i was a knife geek, i learned from other cooks that the balance point HAD to be at the bolster. that alone would indicate whether or not a knife was suitable for use. lol

 

[jaybett]

I don't know if these are more misconceptions or pet peeves.

Focusing on the steel type, instead of the maker. An offshoot of this idea, the heat treat is more important then the metal. No the ability of the maker is key.

Speed chopping, how does it show the capability of a knife? Why even bother to speed chop with a sujihiki or petty?

Limiting the size of a knife, because one lives in a small space. Are you going to punch through the wall of your apartment with a 270 gyuto?

Rating knives based on cutting ability. Sharpness is a given with most Japanese knives. So how can one say that this knife cuts better then that knife?

Okay this is definitely a pet peeve. I cringe every time I hear the statement, Why do you want that knife? A gyuto can do everything that knife can, plus more. A gyuto cannot do everything as well as other knives. I always want to ask what do people mean by more?

The other side of this statement is don't get a nakiri, or cleaver, because they lack a tip. A santoku is no good, because it has a stubby tip. A nakiri or cleaver are better then a gyuto, at chopping vegetables or fruit. So what is the advantage of a pointed tip?

Jay

 

[Chef Doom]

I tend to see a common misconception regarding bacteria. People tend to greatly overestimate the strength and longevity of common bacteria. Particularly regarding food and kitchen environments. Most bacteria can be killed with either 20 seconds of contact with mild soap and water or applying alcohol and allowing it to air dry. The water temperature doesn't even really mater either. I know vinegar is effective but I don't the the studies on strength and contact time. I'm pretty sure that bacteria getting inside the handle is the least of a cooks worries (compared to spoiled food getting on the plate).

And bieniek, I don't know exactly what you meant by scrubbing your handles, my guess would be a sponge, but if you are using a stiff and aggressive abrasive material, then I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you may be wasting your time.

I don't know much about metal stamping and forge processes, but I will say that I learned early that argument was a marketing gimmick often used by high end kitchen supply stores that I grew to ignore.

One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

 

[user 1925]

One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

+1

I understand that there is a quality judgment to be made regarding anything that is made by a master of his or her craft. Absolutely, there is something 'special' about hand made knives and I think this is because there is an inherent quality in something being made by someone who truly understands the relationship between the underlyinng form, function and aesthetic...

But does a knife have a soul? No.

 

[TB_London]

May be an interesting read

http://cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Thanks TB enjoyed reading that

 

[franzb69]

the link was very englightening.

 

[Lefty]

Kevin Cashen is the man! Or, one of them.

Anywho, the misconception that always got me was that Japanese style knives are too brittle to use on anything harder than a sweet potato. This is only true when the steel is pushed to its limit for hardening (or close). If the maker thinks about durability and tempers a knife down a couple of points, it really shouldn't be that much more brittle than most other knives that have a decent HT. Yes, there's a trade off for having a harder AND thinner knife with a steeper angled bevel/bevels, but I have a habit of misusing my knives, and I don't think I've ever chipped a blade past "micro-chip" territory. I'm currently in love with my Harner petty/gyuto, and I use it on just about everything, at home. Parsley, tomatoes, chicken, frozen chicken, frozen sausage, frozen chicken sausage...if you don't slam the knife against the board, you can get quite a bit of mileage out of an edge.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

One of the many misconceptions that gets to me is when people start talking about the soul of a knife. Saying this process gives the knife soul or doesn't. It is clearly an epidemic of people watching way too much anime and martial arts cinema.

Yes, particularly when a knife doesn't have one. However, it must be said, that a superb heat treatment, performance, aesthetics, demonstrates pride makers take in their work and a new owner get a little bit of that with a knife.

This is not as much misconception as personal dislike when Western makers use Eastern symbols or names (outside of proper names for the knives) to show the profound influence Japanese knives made on them. And sometimes use wabi-sabi concept (again, Japanese influence), trying to pass mediocre for quality work.