Moritaka on Rakuten International

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Takeda existed as a company, long before they were discovered by members of ITK. The early members of ITK, such as Fish, Lee, C-Dawg, Andy, etc..., had some serious cajones. They'd surf the internet, find a maker, and if they liked what they saw send an international postal money order and then wait months for the knife to be shipped.

The dynamics on ITK with an "it", maker, was post after post filled with hyperbole. My knife is so sharp, that it cuts molecules. Food jumps out of its way. Imagine a person new to Japanese knives, buys a knife from an "it" maker. The knife arrives, and it has problems. They are going to wonder if the problem is them or the knife? When somebody finally bursts the hyperbole, their is a slew of complaints.

My sense, in other words speculation is that at the end of the day, Japanese knife makers, sort their knives by quality. There is a market for people who want a good piece of steel, that quickly go through knives, so they don't want to pay a lot. They are willing to deal with problems that comes with inexpensive knives, such as poor fit and finish, and grinding issues.

The window for what is considered acceptable is much smaller in the west, then it is in Japan. Typically the problems have occurred, when people ordered directly from the maker. Koki with JCK, has mentioned in e-mails, that delays in shipping are due to troubles acquiring a good knife from the maker.

One buyer was told that Koki had to send back a knife three times, before he got a good one. The buyer eventually had a fire sale and I picked up this knife. Fit and finish were average.

My experiences, plus what I have read, just reinforces, that I will gladly go through a middle man. They know what people in the west want, and can take care of problems.

Jay

Makes me wish there were more brick&morter shops(like Korin) where one could inspect merchandise first hand and establish a good relationship with the purveyor, now that I kind of know what to look for. I do have one shop up here in Toronto where I purchased my Moritaka's,but his selection is limited.He's a great guy to deal with so I think I'm gonna bring my knives in for him to check out.I don't expect any sort of refund(too late for that) but I can at least make him aware of the problem,if he doesn't already know.
 
I woudn't worry about warping issues with Takedas since they are so malleable, you can just bend back with your fingers.

Again on this one, I must be pretty fortunate.

It *is* interesting about the lifecycle of an "it" knife, though. It's an interesting reflection of how community opinions arise and evolve :)
 
I woudn't worry about warping issues with Takedas since they are so malleable, you can just bend back with your fingers.

Maybe...if it only goes in one direction. Like what a yanagi might do over time. But these seemed more like a forging issue...my nakiri, which IIRC was 180mm, had a wave pattern that went L & R from heel to tip and from spine to edge.
 
I've seen Takedas with all sorts of issues, some soft spined that take a set, some bent and not bendable back straight, some a little too thick at the edge bevel, and some wavy. These issues have mostly been seen in the last few years, the early knives we saw were much better overall.
 
This might sound dumb, but can't you re-HT your knife and get it a bit harder, yourself?
I think I remember reading about a DIY blade straightening that involved this.
 
Takeda ....before they were discovered by members of ITK. ...

I wanted to jump on the oral history bandwagon for a second - it's always fun telling story.

Takeda (who I feel certain became the 'new black' earlier than '06) took over the title of "IT" maker in large part because he didn't charge extra for the rosewood handle upgrade. It was $15 for the upgrade at either Watanabe or MC.

The next "IT" knife had to be the Tojiro DP...something stupid like $65 or $70 for the 210 & 240 gyutos. I hink half the people who stumbled onto KF looking for the answer to "Henkels vs. Wustoff" ended up with a DP.

And then we went upscale....the Tojiro PM (or was it PS?), their entry level, insanely affordable powdered steel knife.

I always though it funny that for all the love 'we' had for the Tojiro's back then, nobody really ever jumped on their steel handle knives which is what they were/are supposedly famous for. Andy picked up a clever finally, and had high praise for it, but that was about it.
 
Hmm so what's gonna be the next IT knife I wonder. JCK CN or Hiro AS?
 
I've seen Takedas with all sorts of issues, some soft spined that take a set, some bent and not bendable back straight, some a little too thick at the edge bevel, and some wavy. These issues have mostly been seen in the last few years, the early knives we saw were much better overall.

That is so weird because I was under the assumption that iron could not be hardened so all of them should be malleable. I think Takeda uses a forge to heat treat which can cause all kinds of variations in the heat treat if you aren't a master bladesmith especially when the steel is only on the edge. I could never do it because I'm color blind.
 
Hmm so what's gonna be the next IT knife I wonder. JCK CN or Hiro AS?

I think both have were the "it" knife for a while. At least the TKC version was. I think the current "it" knife is the DT ITK, but its a little different because it is still fairly exclusive since Hoss never made that many of them. He is currently is concentrating on his customs, so I doubt they will ever be readily available.
 
This might sound dumb, but can't you re-HT your knife and get it a bit harder, yourself?
I think I remember reading about a DIY blade straightening that involved this.

not exactly,

it's not hard to lower the hardness a point or two by removing the handle and putting the blade in the oven at 300+ degrees

but to raise the hardness is a much more precise project, requiring a heat source capable of 1500+F and an appropriate quench medium
 
I think both have were the "it" knife for a while. At least the TKC version was. I think the current "it" knife is the DT ITK, but its a little different because it is still fairly exclusive since Hoss never made that many of them. He is currently is concentrating on his customs, so I doubt they will ever be readily available.

I think they will be at some point, just not for awhile.
 
The Hiromoto AS has been around too long to be "it", so my bet is the CarboNext.

Agreed...the AS seemed to have a run of a few years (still a great bang for the $$), and i don't think it would be fair to label a 'knock off' as the new 'IT'
About the only thing that held the Ichi TKC back was they are not set up to sell retail to the USA, but in '09 (?) the forum facilitation garnered orders for about 30 knives in less than a month
 
That is so weird because I was under the assumption that iron could not be hardened so all of them should be malleable. I think Takeda uses a forge to heat treat which can cause all kinds of variations in the heat treat if you aren't a master bladesmith especially when the steel is only on the edge. I could never do it because I'm color blind.


The early knives were springy which made me think that he had core steel running all the way through to the spine.
 
Try Yamawaku. Far as I know there are no issues. I have one and it seems like a really well-made knife, if you can get past that plastic ferrule/collar. You can even order a custom in whatever length you want.

Btw, I have a Moritaka but it hasn't been sharpened extensively because it just hasn't needed it so if mine has issues, I am none the wiser so far. But I did ask them to take extra, extra care with the grind and make sure I got a straight edge and Akiko promised - so I'm hoping they came through for me. But then mine was a custom order (260mm in Blue #2 w octagonal handle). And boy it cuts like a bastid!

PS: this might not be widely known but another famous maker who accepts custom orders is Ashi Hamono. And it has to be emphasised that Ashi-san is reknowned for turning out flawless blades as a matter of pride and reputation. I have a made-to-order Ashi Hamono Ginga chuka bocho (225mm x 110mm x 2.5mm) in White#2 and it's fan-freaking-tastic. I am thinking of ordering a chuka 205mm x 95mm x 1.8-2.0mm in Swedish AEB-L hardened to 59-61.

PPS: this is Seb, btw.

Seb -

Who did you go through to order that Ginga Chinese Cleaver?

And as the rule goes, "Pictures! Or it never happened!" :angry1:
 
I think they will be at some point, just not for awhile.

I think Hoss's backlog for customs is over a year now and that's not including is core business of damascus making, so it will probably be a long time before the ITKs become readily available. I'm sure glad I got one of the first ones. At the original price, it was the bargain of the decade.
 
My Moritaka (custom 260mm in Blue#2 w octagonal rosewood handle):

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My Ashi Hamono Ginga chuka bocho (225x110x2.5mm):

NewMisono001-1.jpg

NewMisono021.jpg

NewMisono002.jpg

NewMisono009.jpg

NewMisono003-1.jpg

NewMisono020.jpg

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The normal cycle of an "It" knife. The discovery is made. Takeda was discovered approximately six years ago. They were an excellent knife at a great price. Andy picked up his cleaver for around $200.00, a similar cleaver today is pushing $500.00. More and more people purchase them. Then comes the issues. In Takeda's case it was handles not aligned correctly with the knife, oddly shaped knives, globs of epoxy, on the tang, and toothy edge. The maker's bubble is popped, and the search begins for the next "It", maker

Mizuno - grinding issues on the choil.

Moritaka - over grinding issues.

Aritsugu - edge grinding issues.

Carter - self promotional newsletter with political\religious views.

Wattanbe - very reactive iron cladding. Lack of flexibility in customizing knives.

Tadatsuna - They were the definition of laser. I never heard of any issues, but people have moved on.

Jay

That's a great post Jay. I've been out of it for a little while, any idea how you would fit Konosuke in there? A few people had them, then it seemed like there was an explosion for the big group buy. What's the verdict now? I'm still in love with my custom white #2 Chuckabocho
 
Great, now my beloved 300mm AS Moritaka yanagi will always leave me suspicious of its quality....

I checked out the grind, and couldn't find any issues myself; but, I really don't know what to look for in the first place.
 
Great, now my beloved 300mm AS Moritaka yanagi will always leave me suspicious of its quality....

I checked out the grind, and couldn't find any issues myself; but, I really don't know what to look for in the first place.

even if you noticed a 'fault' would it make a difference? would you fall out of love with it even though it's performed so well for you? dave mentioned issues with moritakas via an email chat when i ordered them and when they arrived i had a quick look but couldnt see any major issues. after sharpening, another quick look and no issues. they perform fantastically so i see no reason to go looking for problems. im a photography enthusiast too (and work in the photo business) and it's a similar thing, there'll be a lens that everyone absolutely loves for the price and it performs brilliantly, but then there'll be a thread on a forum pointing out an issue and suddenly just about every single person's copy of the lens has the fault and they all hate it.

if it works, it works :thumbsup2:
 
even if you noticed a 'fault' would it make a difference? would you fall out of love with it even though it's performed so well for you? dave mentioned issues with moritakas via an email chat when i ordered them and when they arrived i had a quick look but couldnt see any major issues. after sharpening, another quick look and no issues. they perform fantastically so i see no reason to go looking for problems. im a photography enthusiast too (and work in the photo business) and it's a similar thing, there'll be a lens that everyone absolutely loves for the price and it performs brilliantly, but then there'll be a thread on a forum pointing out an issue and suddenly just about every single person's copy of the lens has the fault and they all hate it.

if it works, it works :thumbsup2:

I have noticed a slight over grind issue on my Moritakas,and it did bother me for a while.It seems to have gotten better after some time on the stones.Performance is still fantastic so I have no regrets whatsoever.But thanks to Dave(and this forum) I know what to look for in the future.
No love lost for Moritaka.
 
That's a great post Jay. I've been out of it for a little while, any idea how you would fit Konosuke in there? A few people had them, then it seemed like there was an explosion for the big group buy. What's the verdict now? I'm still in love with my custom white #2 Chuckabocho

My impression is that the Konosuke group buy, which you did a very good job on, created a demand. Owners were posting glowing reviews. The high cost of shipping was discouraging people from placing orders.

CKTG and JKI, both picked up Konosuke. Mr. Broida created some buzz with the HD line.

The ITK was probably the next IT knife. Hoss couldn't make them fast enough. The scarcity of the knife, plus it not being a laser, appeared to take some of the luster off. I'm sure Mark could still sell as many as Hoss could produce. It sounds like Hoss has his plate full with custom orders, plus forging Damascus steel.

The semi-stainless steel that is in the Konosuke HD and JCK Carbonext are getting attention. An argument could be made that Konosuke is the brand of choice at the moment.

There is some interesting stuff, that could change how we look at knives in the next several years. The first is this web site. Dave has gathered some of the top knife makers in the country on one forum. I'm sure they are well aware of each others work, but we are getting to see it. Hopefully the sharing of information between makers and users will lead to some kick ass knives.

Mr. Broida with JKI, is another new factor. A knife vendor who is a knife nut, who knows what western cooks want, and can find those knives in Japan at a very good price. He can work with the customer, and have custom made knife that fits their needs. The Gesshin line appears to be promising.

Jay
 
What happens is the maker grinds the bevels from the blade face down towards the cutting edge and stops just before he breaks into the edge. If he spends too much time grinding, or is heavy handed, in one section this is an overgrind on the side of the knife that extends down to the edge but because he stops short of blowing through into the edge it isn't seen. Now along comes the knife owner who removes metal at the edge through sharpening and he breaks through into the overgrind and the hole appears and does nothing but grow bigger from this point forward.

Just out of my stupid curiosity. If 'holes' can occur, I imagine the opposite can also happen where there is a raised area that was not ground down enough. Does that happen a lot and create problems? I guess it is easier to fix as you still have metal to take away.

k.
 
This thread is a fascinating read. I recently bought an it knife - a Konosuke HD. We shall see if it falls out of favor in a few years.

Before this I bought a commonly recommended 'budget' knife, a fujiwara carbon,which i still think is an excellent deal. The only issue, which isn't that big of an issue to me, is that the steel on this knife is very reactive. Because of this i decide to force a patina using darkhoek's method which has solved the problem.

I am quite impressed with the fit and finish on that knife, especially at the low price point.
 
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