Shig clone in mono stainless like AEB-L

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I'm off, for the day, but I did want to add two quick things to this thread. The first being that, I believe it was panda, is correct. From the double bevels I've been looking at, there is a hollow about 2/3rds of the way up the right face, with more convexing on the lefthand side. The second is that I'm surprised that the newer Shiges are better cutters than the older ones. The santoku I just stole from myself is approximately 8-10 years old, and the grind really impressed me. I didn't notice a hollow on it, however, so maybe that's part of the tweaked grind?

Anywho, tee-time is at 8am.... :)

PS. I just re checked the santoku and it's there, but not as obviously.
 
maybe the two sons spend less time polishing and concentrating more on making them better cutters! i dont really care about finish at all as long as food doesnt stick.
 
I think Shigefusa started tweaking their grind because of this forum, as users' preferences finally trickled down to the maker. Thinner is very subjective. .5mm might seem like a small number, but it makes a big difference in cutting performance.

I have tried several generations of Shiges with latest giving the most impressive performance. However, somebody perhaps finds earlier version more appealing as change in one things in geometry usually results in a change to something else, and those could be subjective things.

M
 
For Shigefusa it will be no problem to polish mono steel knife. It will be same as for him polishing San Mai
As all polishing is done before heat tread with files, sen and stones. After heat tread knife is they do final polishing. And believe me they way they do it dose not madder much if blade is san mai or mono steel.

Mono steel knives like Masamoto KS or others is considered much easier to make with much more Profit, they do not need any forging or special heat tread to make them stay straight.
Unlike Honyakis witch is forged and hardened with different hardening is way more expensive to make then San Mai !

So if you talking about Profit then mono steel knives is much easier to make and request a lot less time !
 
The subject of copying another's work is very complex and interesting. It is impossible to make a knife without copying somebody's work. If a person were able to make a knife totally by him self, it probably would not function very well.

In Japan there is the idea that you have to apprentice with a master in order to become great at something. The master picks his students carefully in order to carry on his ideas and innovations.

The truth is that everyone copy's someone else's work. A person copy's everyone else but wants the copying to stop as soon as he comes up with a good, innovative idea himself.

The family creating Shigefusa learned from others how to forge, grind, heat treat, polish and even how to run a business. They have their own style and have improved from their experience.

We recently had a nasty thread about Ken Onion's knives, and what seems to bother most people is the fact that he did not copy others but designed his own knives. How dare he try and come up with something new.

It's smart to copy other's work. I never like it when it happens to me, but I am guilty of taking ideas from other makers. I made knives as a kid without much help and it was not until I worked with a professional maker that my biggest improvement came.

An abundant mentality is a lot more productive than a scarcity mentality. It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.

Love and respect

Hoss
 
I agree on many levels !
There is a huge difference of learning from someone how to forge polish etc. and just steal ideas :)
I know it can be quite hard to see the difference but its there.
Like you said
It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.
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Also just have common sense and respect to each other can help a lot :D

I think new ideas and unique knives in many cases tell a lot about blacksmith ! That he trying to be unique is a very brave step and shows in many cases that he is not there just for the money.
 
I'm confused, are you saying that asking my asking if someone makes a knife with similar geometry to a shig in a stainless steel not a reasonable question?

(In fact having gotten the feedback here, I am ordering one of Marko's custom knives in AEB-L for exactly that reason. It will not be identical to a shig but it will have a geometry that gives similar results - and that is what I was looking for.)
 
I have a wa shig, I love it, I will soon have a yo handled damascus shig that I will love as well. I just wanted something like a shig geometry in stainless for the times I want a stainless knife.... If I could buy one from them, I would but they don't do stainless obviously....
 
It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. Thank you for you wisdom. I'm sure Marko and Devin could produce exactly what you're looking for. I look forward to when it!s my turn for a DT and Marko knife.
DevinT said:
The subject of copying another's work is very complex and interesting. It is impossible to make a knife without copying somebody's work. If a person were able to make a knife totally by him self, it probably would not function very well.

In Japan there is the idea that you have to apprentice with a master in order to become great at something. The master picks his students carefully in order to carry on his ideas and innovations.

The truth is that everyone copy's someone else's work. A person copy's everyone else but wants the copying to stop as soon as he comes up with a good, innovative idea himself.

The family creating Shigefusa learned from others how to forge, grind, heat treat, polish and even how to run a business. They have their own style and have improved from their experience.

We recently had a nasty thread about Ken Onion's knives, and what seems to bother most people is the fact that he did not copy others but designed his own knives. How dare he try and come up with something new.

It's smart to copy other's work. I never like it when it happens to me, but I am guilty of taking ideas from other makers. I made knives as a kid without much help and it was not until I worked with a professional maker that my biggest improvement came.

An abundant mentality is a lot more productive than a scarcity mentality. It is when we take without giving back that problems arise.

Love and respect

Hoss
Click to expand...
 
Mrmnms said:
It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. Thank you for you wisdom. I'm sure Marko and Devin could produce exactly what you're looking for. I look forward to when it!s my turn for a DT and Marko knife.
Click to expand...

I tried 4 different geometries before I settled on one I use now. I don't copy blindly, it has to make sense to me - where pros outweight cons. From as little as I know, every geometry has cons.

Things that I look for in geometries:

-Food release
-Long term maintenance (ease of thinning by hand, so the knife is functional)
-Sturdiness

I adopted a few things from Shigefusa geometry (I have no idea how they do it, but I took a concept and made it work), a few things from DT geometry, a profile from Masamoto (altered). I don't do these 1:1, the result is a blend of all.

I agree with Devin to a word in his post in this thread.

M
 
Many could make a copy (and people copy all the time for that matter, think Loveless drop point), but going by the saying "Greeks didn't invented anything, but everything they copied, they improved upon", is it worth it?

The final result will be different, as I am out of the mode of proving things, and back to the mode of "does it make sense?". I stated that and reasons behind in a later post in that thread.

M
 
gic said:
(In fact having gotten the feedback here, I am ordering one of Marko's custom knives in AEB-L for exactly that reason. It will not be identical to a shig but it will have a geometry that gives similar results - and that is what I was looking for.)
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I'm sure you will be very happy with your choice. I wouldn't of recommend Marko if I did not think he was a perfect match for your needs. He places a lot of attention to fit and finish and is truly a perfectionist (much like Shigefusa). I love two different knives 1) Masamoto for its profile 2) Shigefusa for its geometry. Having owned both, one of Marko's knives is next on my list.
 
gic said:
I have a wa Shig and I do love it, I even have a Shig damascus with a yo(!) handle that will be coming to me soon that I got a Japanese friend to order for me from Kiya in Japan. (Luckily while they don't seem to make many yo's anymore-especially in damascus-Kiya seems to have some extra pull with them and they made it for me, I'm chomping at the bit to get it-it should be here by the end of the month.)

Still, I was thinking it would be insanely cool if I could buy a Shig profile knife in a high end stainless steel like AEB-L . Have any of the custom makers here made something close to this? Even better is there any semi custom knife that is close to a Shig profile that is in a mono stainless?
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How could you not want a stainless shigi!!!...... I know I was tired of using my stinky ass... rusting...food coloring...turd...hmm....sorry no love for the shigi cladding...:razz:
 
I have to add her Marko's knives do in fact have influences from shigefusa, on some levels and some surpass and some do not.

When i used a shig last year it has been the only knife that really just felt like an extension of my hand. not because of the handle because it was nothing special and im still not sure why but it just felt like the tool was intended to be in my hand and used any way i wanted to.

Now in terms of steel in my opinion Marko's carbon is way better! Shig had decent edge retention and got really sharp, but my Marko custom gets sharp like white steel but holds and edge like crazy, i mean probably equivalent of 5-6 sharpening of shig to one of his.

Food release- i would say this is pretty close, almost a tie. Both are pretty good.

But i agree with Mario i mean stainless like cpm154 or stainless that can perform i will choose over carbon every time less hassle equals more time working in the kitchen.
 
panda said:
would love to try his 52100 steel, how was it on the stones? beauty of shig's steel is that it's so damn easy to sharpen with the best 'feel' on stones.
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I will have a few ready-made 225mm gyutos in 52100 and A2 out by the end of the month. I would ask folks for feedback and reviews and criticism, private or public, and if somebody want to do a passround, I am all for it.

But again, these are not Shig or Masamoto or DT clones, but rather the melting pot of things I like.

M
 
panda said:
would love to try his 52100 steel, how was it on the stones? beauty of shig's steel is that it's so damn easy to sharpen with the best 'feel' on stones.
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super easy to sharpen, with my gesshin 4k literally 6 strokes and have a big nice burr, burr removal isnt an issue either, maybe i have gotten better at sharpening or is easy to remove on his steel.

I would compare to white steel if even easier honestly.
 
HTML:
No better I get about 2-3 months in between sharpenings. I do strop on diamond every two weeks or so. And I use it everyday hard. Great steel, great knife!!
 
RRLOVER said:
How could you not want a stainless shigi!!!...... I know I was tired of using my stinky ass... rusting...food coloring...turd...hmm....sorry no love for the shigi cladding...:razz:
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mine was never too reactive, probably the minority though
 
maxim said:
...
Mono steel knives like Masamoto KS or others is considered much easier to make with much more Profit, they do not need any forging or special heat tread to make them stay straight.
Unlike Honyakis witch is forged and hardened with different hardening is way more expensive to make then San Mai !
Click to expand...

Couple of points to address:

Honyaki and monosteel blades are essentially the same with the exception that one is forged to shape and requires annealing before heat treating and the other is cut from a sheet of steel and requires profilign. After a forged blank is annealed, they are heat treated the same - quenched in water or oil. In US most makers quench carbon steels in medium to fast oil to to minimize warpage, but many still quench in water for more active hamon (W2 and 1095, etc). Rarely blades are coming out of a quenching medium perfectly straight, almost always some straightening required during the process of making a knife.

Hamon on nonyaki is not for decoration but for make the steel to absorb shock better and to make it easier to straighten the edge. Removing scratches (as you know yourself) from hardened monosteel is no fun, and that is where a whole lot of work is. Monosteel blades hardened to 62-63RC, with steels that have some chromium, vanadium and other alloys that are harder than iron, are often much more difficult to finish than a typical honyaki at 64RC or so, let alone san mai with a soft cladding. I can refinish san mai in 30 minutes, while a monosteel blade can take me 2-3 hours or more.

To straighten the edge on a san mai, all you need to do is to bent the spine in the spot where you see warpage on the edge. If you know of an easy way of straightening monosteel blade, I would like to know it, as I haven't found one (easy) yet.

Steels like 52100 is a deep hardening steel because of presence of chromium, so hamon method straightening the edge would not work.
M
 
If you use 2 or 3 hrs to polish the blade then something is wrong with your technique.
Most of the polishing as I said is done before heat tread
And yeah exactly stock removal mono steel blades take much less time to make so more profit
 
To get uniform cooling on the blade, which in turn minimizes distortion (cooling is quite a violent process), the blanks are left at full thickness, including honyaki, which it typically forged thicker.

When I polish a blade, I don't just cover scratches, but completely remove preceding scratches before moving up a grit, that is why it takes me the long it takes.

I have nothing more to add to this argument.

M
 
Still 2 or 3 hrs or more sounds like a lot really a lot. I usually polish both Claded knives and Mono Steel knives. I did try to polish both 1095 and 52100 mono steel and time is about the same as Kasumi knives
I will agree that Mono Steel knives Take much more time to Thin, but in makers case it is done on a grinder not on stones !
But polishing or refinishing it Takes about same time for me, and i do not cover up scratches :D
 
mainaman said:
mine was never too reactive, probably the minority though
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I have owned/used/sold five different shigis.....all were plenty reactive......why would I want to use a knife that turns my food colors???....just because the cool kids are doing it???
 
Worked in pro kitchen some years with Shig never had that problem.
RRLOVER said:
I have owned/used/sold five different shigis.....all were plenty reactive......why would I want to use a knife that turns my food colors???....just because the cool kids are doing it???
Click to expand...
But yeah if you are not used to work with Carbon knives i get the idea
 
maxim said:
Worked in pro kitchen some years with Shig never had that problem.

But yeah if you are not used to work with Carbon knives i get the idea
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??????? What does a "Carbon" knife have to do with the reactive cladding used by shigi??.....I do own/owned a "few" carbon knives...my main knife is O1/L6 knife I made from Delberts dammy.
 
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