So how should the forum handle re-sellers or "flippers"?

[tgfencer]

Very interesting discussion and one I'm glad is being held in a positive and constructive way. I will second that I like to think of KKF as a gentleman's forum. This has always been our strong suit, this is what has kept me around and what makes KKF unique among knife forums. I feel, as do others, that we are starting to lose this and that is a great pity. Blame can certainly be passed around, but we must also look at ourselves and ask what we can do to make things better as well.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I will admit I do not know quite where I stand on the issue. On the one hand, I certainly don't condone buying of rare or 'hyped' knives with the immediate intent to flip for a profit, however I'm also not sure I can see a good way to stop it aside from members actively and consciously choosing to not buy from that person out of principle. I can also foresee some mistaken allegations flying around if we start actively punishing those who we believe are attempting to make a large profit. If its not a clear and obvious case of flipping, how can we be certain who is profiting and who is not without knowing what the buyer paid originally. I doubt we are going to start demanding receipts.

I myself have sold items here on KKF at both a loss and a gain. I hope no one thinks less of me for admitting this, but I believe honesty is valuable in this discussion and I am not ashamed or guilty of this fact. I would not classify either scenario as more morally or ethically bankrupt than the other because I have not ripped anyone off, myself included. I have always sold at what I think an item is worth to me. Just as an example, if I take a chance and spend $400 on a jnat or knife from an auction or such sites and it turns out to be a decent stone or knife, but not worth the 400 I paid, I might sell it on BST but it will be heavily discounted. Likewise, if I buy a $300 stone or knife that turns out to be awesome but I already have something similar, I might sell it at a bit higher price due to its quality. I am always upfront if people ask me questions about items for sale as long as I can actually provide an answer and I expect that same courtesy to be extended back. Honesty and open communication is vital for both parties.

For me, I never buy something with the intent of reselling it as I like to believe I will love everything, I buy with the intent to keep/own and then sell if I find it doesn't fit my needs. That intent is what I think drives people up the wall about flipping- its not someone who buys a Shig and then a year or two later goes to sell it after deciding its not for them, realizes the prices have gone up and that if they ever wanted to replace the item it would cost loads of cash so they raise their selling price to match the current market- its someone who buys an item with a new price already calculated in their heads for what they're going to sell it at.

I believe it is also important to make the distinction that vendors and businesses buy product at wholesale prices from which they derive their retail pricing. Vendors and businesses have to develop relationships with maker and suppliers, they have to market their items, they have to build trust and understanding with their customer base, and a dozen other things I'm probably forgetting. Someone buying a few knives at retail pricing and then reselling at higher prices is not the same thing and certainly is not a sustainable career without serious work. I think most of our vendors on KKF would agree that you can't run a business that way, but I absolutely sympathize with them and their annoyance when their products show up here at inflated prices.

So to sum up, I don't know how I feel about this situation. I agree with much of what others have said. If the moderators and folks decide on regulations I wish them good luck, but if it turns into a witch hunt I fear it could get ugly.

My wife always complains I overthink things so I will just say this- personally, I buy and sell according to my conscious while doing my best to respect the other members of the community and the spirit we try to uphold. That is all I feel that I have true control over.

 

[Bill13]

I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:

1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.

Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.

I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".

Hope everyone has an awesome day

Going to disagree with #1, flipping or selling did not drive the prices up. A combination of supply and demand did so. The flipping is a result of that mismatch, not the cause. I'm not thrilled when I see new knives being flipped for a profit, but if I had a knife that had gone up in value over time that I was interested in selling I would list it at its "market" value, not what I paid for it. Maybe for a friend or longtime forum member I would work out a discount off the market price, but would not expect or ask others to do so.

Policing such a thing would be a nightmare, do we ask for receipts to prove you are not making a profit, do we adjust for inflation?

Going to disagree with #2 also, sorry. The community can survive a few people making a profit off knives they sell on the BST. If someone is upset about the asked for price of a knife or stone, don't buy it. It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable.

Your last point is more interesting/on spot to me. I have always viewed the censorship thing as a plus in the whole because it prevents the forum from becoming a sh** show of who said what or this knife makers knives suck and bla bla bla... Maybe it's gone too far? I have seen on the forums several threads about tardy, sometimes very tardy knife deliveries etc so so some negative commentary is allowed.

 

[Kingkor]

Going to disagree with #1, flipping or selling did not drive the prices up. A combination of supply and demand did so. The flipping is a result of that mismatch, not the cause. I'm not thrilled when I see new knives being flipped for a profit, but if I had a knife that had gone up in value over time that I was interested in selling I would list it at its "market" value, not what I paid for it. Maybe for a friend or longtime forum member I would work out a discount off the market price, but would not expect or ask others to do so.

Policing such a thing would be a nightmare, do we ask for receipts to prove you are not making a profit, do we adjust for inflation?

Going to disagree with #2 also, sorry. The community can survive a few people making a profit off knives they sell on the BST. If someone is upset about the asked for price of a knife or stone, don't buy it. It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable.

Your last point is more interesting/on spot to me. I have always viewed the censorship thing as a plus in the whole because it prevents the forum from becoming a sh** show of who said what or this knife makers knives suck and bla bla bla... Maybe it's gone too far? I have seen on the forums several threads about tardy, sometimes very tardy knife deliveries etc so so some negative commentary is allowed.

It's not that only the flipping or selling drove prices up, BUT and a big BUT at that the prices have gone up because people feel like they can drive them up{both individuals and some vendors}(it's not necessarily bad it's and there's not much to do about it), demand hasn't gone up so much like I stated in my first post like the prices have it's just that the market has gotten crazy(I haven't ever bought a knife for those crazy prices it's not my style). And I totally agree with selling at market value just not jacking the prices up(I admit I too have done this with a kato a long time ago and took advantage of the market and i'm not ashamed of it in any way but I haven't pushed it as far as it is today).

Other than that the community can survive anything it's more of what type of community we want to be than what we can do or survive. Why would anyone want to stay here and contribute time/knowledge when he can do so in other places that give him back alot more than a place that censors commentary and opinions, and lets newcomers buy knives/stones at a crazy markup because : "It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable."

Censorship is never a plus, talking in a respecting and open minded way is.
Just some food for thought.....

 

[jklip13]

I think, for better or for worse, the sale and discussion of the sales in question makes for interesting dialogue. I see both the sale and comments/dissagreements as valuable information for a lot of people and, are opinions I appreciate learning from.
I agree though that if someone is opperating like a vendor, selling dozens or items with that as their only contribution should pay for that the way the other vendors do.

 

[daveb]

Bill makes the salient (to me) point that this is about a "few people" or very much the minority of transactions on bst. I'm not particularly interested in knives that could be sold at a markup and I've got more stones than I use without getting stupid on Jnats so I don't pay attention to every bst listing. But. The listings that are reported or called out are not the norm. It may be more of a problem than I realize but from the cheap seats it's almost noise.

Any questions about censorship probably belong elsewhere but as one with the magic button I can say that most, almost all, posts that are deleted are because of negative commentary on a bst thread. The OP on a bst thread "owns" that thread and I don't see that changing. It's been suggested that all bst threads become a "one post and locked" thread. I'm only reluctant to do this because much of the commentary on a bst thread can be useful to our newer (and this old fart) members.

 

[Kingkor]

Bill makes the salient (to me) point that this is about a "few people" or very much the minority of transactions on bst. I'm not particularly interested in knives that could be sold at a markup and I've got more stones than I use without getting stupid on Jnats so I don't pay attention to every bst listing. But. The listings that are reported or called out are not the norm. It may be more of a problem than I realize but from the cheap seats it's almost noise.

Any questions about censorship probably belong elsewhere but as one with the magic button I can say that most, almost all, posts that are deleted are because of negative commentary on a bst thread. The OP on a bst thread "owns" that thread and I don't see that changing. It's been suggested that all bst threads become a "one post and locked" thread. I'm only reluctant to do this because much of the commentary on a bst thread can be useful to our newer (and this old fart) members.

What about commentary on transactions with sellers/vendors/forum members? what about thought on different knives? what about opinions on services?

 

[Kingkor]

I'm really looking for answers not trying to start a fight or anything here(please don't ban me :surrendar: , just kidding ). But i'd really love an honest answer other than legal rights because opinions/comments written in a respectful way can be seen everywhere online.

 

[StonedEdge]

Personally I think some are trying to fix something that ain't broke. Maybe one way to appease the jealous whiners around here (you know who you are) would be to cap the value of a single given BST post involving multiple items? Or put in place a mandatory KKF donation linked to sales surpassing 'x' amount from non-vendors?

Either way, I see no wrong in keeping the status quo. If somebody is actively trying to buy and flip stuff for higher prices, the financial risk and allocation of time is on them. If it doesn't sell its their loss. If we outright ban this type of thing they'll end up elsewhere on the net anyway. Plus, who's gunna be the sheriff around here to accuse people of being "flippers" , it doesn't sound like a very thankful job and stands to alienate some members, potentially erroneously.

 

[daveb]

I'm really looking for answers not trying to start a fight or anything here(please don't ban me :surrendar: , just kidding ). But i'd really love an honest answer other than legal rights because opinions/comments written in a respectful way can be seen everywhere online.

What about commentary on transactions with sellers/vendors/forum members? what about thought on different knives? what about opinions on services?

Comments on transactions with vendors have always been fair game. There have been times when some posts are meant to beleaguer the vendor rather than elicit information and there a line will be drawn and posts may disappear. Transactions with craftsmen, especially those who are not performing to contracted work are also fair game and much more latitude is provided. But even among these, 10% of respondents will actually have an interest in a delinquent transaction and 90% will be piling on to "save the world". Note that both these instances would be outside of the bst area.

Transactions with forum members, within the context of the bst sub-forum, will be limited to positive experiences. No legal mumbo jumbo applies, the thread belongs to the OP. Negative experiences can be detailed elsewhere but they will not be allowed to turn into a pissing contest.

And finally, in the course of the last two years only one individual has been banned. Nough said.

 

[milkbaby]

There are already some rules in place for bst such as the requirement for a certain number of forum posts before access to posting there. I believe there is also a limit on storage of private messages for non-site supporters which would limit the activity of an active flipper.

Seems to me that this discussion is mostly about feelings, i.e. people feel that having folks flip knives in bst is hurting the atmosphere, whether that is driving hysteria on rare and relatively hard to obtain knives or making the forum feel less of a community. These are valid issues but determining common sense and fair regulations to meet these ends that are enforceable is not simple.

Maybe kkf institutes a policy to limit the number of bst sales per month per member. But what happens when my daughter gets hit by a car or gets cancer and I need to sell everything immediately to pay for her medical care? Too bad? But maybe it's too bad that I don't particularly like flippers as well, but there's less harm done in that scenario than the one involving my daughter.

Edit to add: In any case, it could be argued that both scenarios are relatively rare.

 

[chinacats]

I still like to think of this in terms of being a gentleman's forum. If you bought a Shig 2 years ago for 400 and you sell it now for 600 no harm no foul. If you just want to sell knives to make $ then take it to eBay or crap knives to go forum...or pay here to be a vendor.

In golf people call their own penalties...and so don't do things purposefully that would be a penalty...it's a gentleman's game. This forum has usually been such a place...lately there have been people abusing this and it's annoying to no end...again I have no problem with the free market but the b/s/t is not a free market...it's a forum offering for members to get to try some new gear and pass it along if you don't want/need it...not a place to make money...simple as that in my mind.

Sure would like to hear some input from s0real on this...

 

[cschoedler]

I still like to think of this in terms of being a gentleman's forum. If you bought a Shig 2 years ago for 400 and you sell it now for 600 no harm no foul. If you just want to sell knives to make $ then take it to eBay or crap knives to go forum...or pay here to be a vendor.

In golf people call their own penalties...and so don't do things purposefully that would be a penalty...it's a gentleman's game. This forum has usually been such a place...lately there have been people abusing this and it's annoying to no end...again I have no problem with the free market but the b/s/t is not a free market...it's a forum offering for members to get to try some new gear and pass it along if you don't want/need it...not a place to make money...simple as that in my mind.

Sure would like to hear some input from s0real on this...

This +10000

 

[Gregmega]

I'm not a fan of over regulation because there's no way of truly regulating this micro market in a way that doesn't become tedious and overburdened with ridiculous rules. Walking that road is the idyllic utopia turned fascist where rules that are meant to preserve stack so deeply on top of each other that you can't even spit on the ground without being arrested. Go to Santa Monica and you'll see what I mean. How are you going to regulate my gift from grandma that I'm selling 'at a profit'? I also like some of these knives and every time one sells 100$ higher, it establishes a new threshold for the market to use as a newly set precedent.

But I also view the 'believe in the free market' as a sanctimonious argument, it's low hanging fruit and a cheaply played card in a community that you want to retain its identity (I hope), and here's where chinacats golf rule holds up that self regulation that I admire about most the forum- however that's entirely dependent on the moral and ethical fiber of the community that uses it, not a downward force of action by rule of authority.

And perhaps where the rubber meets the road is a variation of self policing? How about the mods take a proactive approach and install a 'report button' for suspected abusers as opposed to having to wade through dissenting comments and censoring valid comments from members?

On another note: I really don't think anyone who's flipping here is making a living wage. Maybe just semantics, but this doesn't give vendor status or tax evasion much traction in a real world convo. They're just seeing a gap in the market and taking advantage of it, and exposing why some vendors won't sell here in the first place. One very well known maker I know said basically this: why would I pay to be a vendor there when there are people there selling for free?

And where has soreal been? Why, he hasn't added to the community is quite some time[emoji848][emoji848][emoji848]hmmmmmmm.....

 

[Chef Doom]

I once tried to haggle for a Carter below the asking price. Person said no, so I moved on. Its called freedom of choice.

People will always buy things they don't need at prices that are obviously inflated for reasons that have no real value.

Besides, the spirit of the forum died the moment words like **** **** and dicks started being edited.

 

[Chef Doom]

Wait, dick isn't being edited???

Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe! May the poor gorilla rest in peace. Can't even get your knuckle dragging swag going without being shot. THEY SAID THE ZOO WAS A SAFE SPACE 😟😢😭

 

[HRC_64]

The terms "free market" and "black market"
are not synonyms, and they don't share the
same levels of governance.

I think this is confounding a lot of people.

Wall street is a free market, one of the most Iconic,
but it has a-lot of professional constraints on who can trade
and how.

Thats what makes it an enduring institution.

They keep the market and its participants from
eating itself.

 

[daveb]

Welcome to the party CD.

 

[HRC_64]

Wait, dick isn't being edited???

Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe!

:rofl:

 

[bkultra]

Chef Doom is very passionate about dicks, noted.

 

[buffhr]

I see many valid points made in this thread...

However having been a mod in many forums for varying lengths of time the first thing id suggest thinking about is how anything could be done about this scenario and how much policing do you want to have to do, whilst remaining fair to everyone and not overwhelming the mods, but still establishing rules/guidelines that are clear and minimize "gray" area as everyone interpretations is different and right there is a big source of mixed feeling and potential situation to deal with...


Being fairly new to the forum and mainly a lurker (have been lurking for many years before joining), Id have to agree with chinacats that I have always seen this as a "gentlemans" area and hence why i joined here instead of xyz forums...
Also have to side with Dave M. that its alot about mindset and that is something that is practically impossible to judge from behind a keyboard and screen... Some people also intend to just test the waters or may see it as "helping the members out" and to be fair IMHO if someone goes to Japan and brings back a few knives and were to offload them at no profit fairly sure not many would bat an eye at this as this person is just helping others get what they want.

However in the case where someone buys low and sells high and that this is the intent all along is the scenario that seems to irk most people, e.g. profiting off of others and well like many I see this as an "annoyance", however if someone is willing to pay xxx price well did that seller not fulfill someones expectations...

The one thing that is clear in my mind is that if someone is intending to profit, the forum should have its share as they have now turned this into somewhat a "makeshift" business. And by this I dont mean member y selling is 5 yr old shig that he paid 250 for 5 years ago for 700 because thats just inflation/market value... OTOH where do you draw the line on this as well as not everyone is into Jknives to use them, some like the looks (drawer queen anyone...) and that knife would still be bnib in 2/5/15 years.

just my 0.02...

 

[Bill13]

Wait, dick isn't being edited???

Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe! May the poor gorilla rest in peace. Can't even get your knuckle dragging swag going without being shot. THEY SAID THE ZOO WAS A SAFE SPACE 😟😢😭

Damn CD - took you long enough to find this thread and make me laugh, yet again.

 

[Bill13]

It's not that only the flipping or selling drove prices up, BUT and a big BUT at that the prices have gone up because people feel like they can drive them up{both individuals and some vendors}(it's not necessarily bad it's and there's not much to do about it), demand hasn't gone up so much like I stated in my first post like the prices have it's just that the market has gotten crazy(I haven't ever bought a knife for those crazy prices it's not my style). And I totally agree with selling at market value just not jacking the prices up(I admit I too have done this with a kato a long time ago and took advantage of the market and i'm not ashamed of it in any way but I haven't pushed it as far as it is today).

Other than that the community can survive anything it's more of what type of community we want to be than what we can do or survive. Why would anyone want to stay here and contribute time/knowledge when he can do so in other places that give him back alot more than a place that censors commentary and opinions, and lets newcomers buy knives/stones at a crazy markup because : "It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable."

I think your first sentence is incorrect. The seller on BST has no power over the rising costs. The vendors, maybe, if they also have control of all the supply like in the diamond market. It is the purchaser who has all the power. If no one is interested the price will be dropped or removed.
Trying to manipulate this supply and demand equation never works - even in countries where the power of the government is almost absolute. Just look at the latest example Venezuela, the black market there is flourishing in response to the governments attempts to control pricing.

 

[WildBoar]

I spend time on another forum where there is a nice B/S/T subforum for the members to use to sell from their collections to other collectors. It is pretty well moderated. And then they also have a separate subforum for resellers/ flippers, that people who are not really members of the community and just want to make a buck off the membership can post for sale ads in. That one has very little moderation, as the trade-off for the people who sell there profiting off forum members is they posts can get crapped on if they make false claims, etc.

But the other aspect to this discussion is the fact that legitimate knife sellers/ vendors who pay to use KF as a vendor are subjected to competition from people who pay no fees.

 

[Chef Doom]

The terms "free market" and "black market"
are not synonyms, and they don't share the
same levels of governance.

I think this is confounding a lot of people.

Wall street is a free market, one of the most Iconic,
but it has a-lot of professional constraints on who can trade
and how.

Thats what makes it an enduring institution.

They keep the market and its participants from
eating itself.

That may be true but you have to keep in mind that the rules put in place around Wall Street are out of the government's desire to control outcomes and to make sure contracts are upheld (most of the time), as well as installing barriers of entry so that commoners can not rise up in the ranks too high too quickly. Every thing here is done with a verbal handshake and controlling outcomes is a daunting and unforgiving task.

 

[Chef Doom]

I spend time on another forum where there is a nice B/S/T subforum for the members to use to sell from their collections to other collectors. It is pretty well moderated. And then they also have a separate subforum for resellers/ flippers, that people who are not really members of the community and just want to make a buck off the membership can post for sale ads in. That one has very little moderation, as the trade-off for the people who sell there profiting off forum members is they posts can get crapped on if they make false claims, etc.

But the other aspect to this discussion is the fact that legitimate knife sellers/ vendors who pay to use KF as a vendor are subjected to competition from people who pay no fees.

I can see your point. I would not care either way but at a minimum you could say anyone who sells used knives above market value has to pay a fee. But then you need a rule around a scenario where said object is discontinued and no longer available. The question would be should there be a special case for vintage or antique items?

 

[Bill13]

I can see your point. I would not care either way but at a minimum you could say anyone who sells used knives above market value has to pay a fee. But then you need a rule around a scenario where said object is discontinued and no longer available. The question would be should there be a special case for vintage or antique items?

Right, and who spends the time tracking down the list price of every knife? I kinda like the separate BST idea but still prefer the way it is and letting the "market" figure things out. But I'm a fan of Milton Friedman, Art Laffer, and Thomas Sowell, so it's their fault.

 

[Anton]

getting complicated

 

[McMan]

[video=youtube;RWsx1X8PV_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A[/video]

 

[panda]

dicks on dicks on dickks yeah

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:

Pricing.

Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.

Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.

Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.

Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.

Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.


Any thoughts on using it here?