So how should the forum handle re-sellers or "flippers"?

[daveb]

You sir are the sage of this forum.

 

[pete84]

Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:

Pricing.

Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.

Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.

Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.

Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.

Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.


Any thoughts on using it here?

Amen.

 

[chinacats]

Yep!

 

[Matus]

Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:

Pricing.

Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.

Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.

Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.

Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.

Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.


Any thoughts on using it here?

And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.

 

[mise_en_place]

It makes me laugh thinking about the 270 kasumi Shig I got from Mert a couple of years ago for $500 and resold for that price or slightly cheaper. Now I see kasumi 240s go for like $7-800?

****'s crazy.

 

[Chef Doom]

And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.

That is always the sticking point. Rules are pointless without some form of consistent enforcement.

 

[Anton]

And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.

I say we try it, what we got to loose other than more arguing? there will be no right or wrong there will always be two or three sides and arguing, stupidly.

Put to vote - Community right?..

If I owned this place I'll frankly be fed-up and just shut it down, and y'all be spinning, so there is that. This is not a co-op nobody is forcing anyone to work or stay here.

 

[StonedEdge]

As long as HRC gets the first chance at posting the one and only price-whining post per BST thread this system could work.......lol

 

[Jville]

Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:

Pricing.

Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.

Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.

Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.

Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.

Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.


Any thoughts on using it here?

I had wrote a comment originally that was saying something similar but I wasn't logged in. Frustrated, I didn't rewrite it. I think this is one of the most concise answer with offering a practical "solution" or at least a valid, reasonable attempt.

I have one major concern about the piling on section. How is that define. Is a plus one, piling on. Is having a similar opinion piling on. Is making a comment after someone has made a comment piling on. Things are established by majorities, number, or strong evidence.

If only one person is to make a comment and it's quitely buried by others not being able to express discontent in line with the rest of the rules. It becomes somewhat worthless. If you have one bad review of a restaurant in a sea of good ones. It isn't going to hold ANY weight. Reviews or in forum matters comments are part of regulating the free market. If they are censored it becomes sort of propaganda or at least vulnerable to ignorance. There has been a lot of sensitivity regarding protecting a free market, but not as much of protecting freedom of speech or opinion. This is important aspect of free market.

 

[mille162]

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ...and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it," -Supreme Court Justice Stewart, 1964

we have moderators for a reason, and I personally feel the distinction between a forum member selling/flipping a knife vs. being labeled a vendor should be left to them to decide. Let's let the moderators continue to police the listings and react at how they see fit. Hard fast rules & definitions just create loopholes for someone those rules apply to to discover and exploit those loopholes.

In my personal experience, I found a knife I was unsure of at Korin, but it was on sale and I had a gift card to use so I bought it. The salesmen even told me "you could list it tomorrow online and make money on it". It was a no-risk purchase for me. After almost a year of never using it, I decided I'd rather have the cash to purchase something else I would use. I listed it here on the forum and it sold for slightly more than I actually paid for it, but less than the original retail. The maker of the knife had since retired and stopped making knives and I probably could have listed it better and asked for more than the retail, and that would have been a fair market value. A forum member bought it and responded later he was enjoying the knife and was happy with the purchase. I've sold maybe 6-8 total knives here since joining 3 years ago, but I'm sure i've bought more than that here.

For the moderators consideration, I think it comes down to two criteria:

Activity on the forum: a widely active poster with lots of insight and helpful posts who is a very prominent member would obviously have more knives come across their cutting board, and have more to offer for sale. You upgrade and sell the older, you buy new brands/styles to test knowing you can always relist if you don't like, etc. That would be normal behavior. If you've recently joined, only post the minimum to get B/S/T access and always has 1-2 knives listed for sale, you're a business.

Volume: If 1 person finds a close-out sale somewhere on a popular knife, buys 2-3, and sells them (either all for profit, or sells 2 to essentially get his 3rd for free), that's not a vendor, that's a well educated and enthusiastic knife guy with a hobby he's smart about. If he does it once a week, or even once a month, well that's approaching a business. Make a trip to Japan once a year and bringing home a few hard to get knives to resell on the forum and pay for your own purchases is more acceptable and doesn't make you a business. It's that large grey area between once and once a week that we should be rely on the moderators to police.

The one consideration I would make those (as a moderator) is new members and what they're listing. When I first joined, I had a very quick re-education on knives in general, and determined that most of what I currently had were not the best choices for me. I had an immediate urge to purge my entire roll and replace with all new brands and styles I had been exposed to. I listed a bunch of knives I no longer wanted, and was shopping for other models. I would think this would be normal behavior for someone just falling into this black hole of a hobby, lol.

Again, thank you moderators for doing such a good job keeping this forum of value and the right balance of commercial support (needed to survive) and hobbyists interacting with each other...as well as the long-time members and regular posters offering so many interesting and valuable posts on a variety of topics!

 

[parbaked]

^ Well put...thanks!

I would add another consideration when valuing "collectable" knives is replacement cost.
If I had to sell a Yo Shig to pay bills, I'd try to sell it for what it would cost me to replace it when i could afford to.
That to me is more important than what i paid for it...

 

[StonedEdge]

Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can

 

[Jovidah]

Or maybe some of us just have a different concept of 'community'... :disdain:

 

[HRC_64]

Or maybe some of us just have a different concept of 'community'... :disdain:

+1 :rofl:

 

[Gregmega]

Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can

Where there's smoke... and there's been a lot of smoke. Maybe it's not the system but the people 'using' the system.

 

[Nemo]

Where there's smoke... and there's been a lot of smoke. Maybe it's not the system but the people 'using' the system.

I guess in the end, the system's rules need to be able to cope with how people are actually using the system.

I suspect that there will always be some poeple who don't follow the unwritten "gentleman's rules". So either the rules need to be explicit around what is OK and what isn't or the rules should allow someone to be called out when they are not following "gentleman's rules".

A "free market" will tend to favour the side that has more information. If we retrict the flow of information, for example with BST rules which prohibit calling out high prices or flipping and similar business practices, there is potential to make the "free market" unfair in the seller's favour. Well may we say "caveat emptor", but how can a low information buyer be fully aware if we ban anyone from warning them of a problematic price or business practice?

FWIW, I support a free market, it's really the information assymetry in the context of that free market that I have a problem with.

 

[ynot1985]

I guess in the end, the system's rules need to be able to cope with how people are actually using the system.

I suspect that there will always be some poeple who don't follow the unwritten "gentleman's rules". So either the rules need to be explicit around what is OK and what isn't or the rules should allow someone to be called out when they are not following "gentleman's rules".

A "free market" will tend to favour the side that has more information. If we retrict the flow of information, for example with BST rules which prohibit calling out high prices or flipping and similar business practices, there is potential to make the "free market" unfair in the seller's favour. Well may we say "caveat emptor", but how can a low information buyer be fully aware if we ban anyone from warning them of a problematic price or business practice?

FWIW, I support a free market, it's really the information assymetry in the context of that free market that I have a problem with.

+1, it's only really free market if there is perfect information. By limiting opinions to one side of the equation reduces the notion of this free market principle.

 

[Panamapeet]

Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can

This discussion was going pretty amicably but your comments really start to annoy me. Not that you have to care or anything, but can you honestly not understans that people may have a different opinion than you?

 

[Jville]

+1, it's only really free market if there is perfect information. By limiting opinions to one side of the equation reduces the notion of this free market principle.

+1 to this and the comment that was qouted with it.

 

[toddnmd]

I think the last few quotes have captured some of the thoughts--people need information to make good decisions, and there is so much information out there that it's sometimes too difficult to find it.
I wouldn't mind people being able to respond to an offered price with a question or additional information. Buyers can choose to explain/justify or not. In the end, buyers have the choice of whether to buy or not.
To me, maintaining the connection between members of the community is more important than helping people maximize profits. It's not a common issue of people selling for high profits, or buying low here and selling high elsewhere, but I think the forum shouldn't necessarily be neutral about the transactions that occur here.

 

[Gregmega]

I think the last few quotes have captured some of the thoughts--people need information to make good decisions, and there is so much information out there that it's sometimes too difficult to find it.
I wouldn't mind people being able to respond to an offered price with a question or additional information. Buyers can choose to explain/justify or not. In the end, buyers have the choice of whether to buy or not.
To me, maintaining the connection between members of the community is more important than helping people maximize profits. It's not a common issue of people selling for high profits, or buying low here and selling high elsewhere, but I think the forum shouldn't necessarily be neutral about the transactions that occur here.

Whole heartedly agree. But being neutral is different than bending the bias through control of censor. As with Nemo, that's a very astute observation. There's only so much you can discern from the many sales on many platforms to know a knife's provenance so-to-speak, let alone its seller, as I'm sure everyone who uses bst keeps an eye up for as many sales that happen as possible. It makes sense that any form of censorship limits a less informed buyer of knife X's true value, and by and large I'd bet those are the people buying these inflated knives. Those who are inclined and more aware of general values immediately smells a rat, isn't able to comment freely, and then suffers when a new price precedent is set. Back to those gentleman's rules though, to express those thoughts respectfully and freely to generate a more open dialogue to combat a very obviously predatory practice.

 

[Chef Doom]

There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.

 

[Jville]

There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.

I think this is a different situation than 4 types of mayonnaise to choose from

 

[bkultra]

There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.

Decision fatigue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue

 

[milkbaby]

There should be a separate sister forum called Kitchen Knife Buy/Sell/Trade Forums then we won't have to worry about it here anymore.

 

[fujiyama]

To me, re-sellers provide an opportunity for people to buy knives that they would not otherwise encounter. And a consensual transaction between buyer and seller is between them and not for others to judge. I'm not going to judge others that marked it up to market value.

I wholeheartedly agree, Dave.

I also dont like when people are hypocrites and only call out certain individuals and not their buddies when they do the same. There needs to be some consistency with the WTT threads as well, some ppl get called out for not listing a price, and others dont.

+1

This post hit home to me; I can't believe no one else commented on it!

 

[fujiyama]

I'm only here to contribute a big factor that's been left out of this discussion - with a worldwide membership, how do you know what someone paid for an item?

For example, the Province I live in imposes a 15% sales tax on goods.

Generally, U.S. customers receive free shipping. I pay $30 USD for shipping on average. When importing, I also get dinged with fees for that (which can vary depending on the shipper).

Oh, PayPal! When making a purchase in foreign currency (eg. USD or JPY), a 2.5% fee is imposed.

Now let's look selling internationally with PayPal. :cool2: PayPal charges 2.9%, plus 2.5% when a currency conversion is involved, plus 1.5% for an international transaction, plus $0.30 flat fee. Plus other hidden discrepancies - for example, their currency conversion rates are famous for being higher than XE or Google.

That's 6.9% in PayPal fees plus $0.30. Oh, plus the 2.5% fee I paid to purchase the product = 9.4% in PayPal fees plus $0.30

9.4% fees plus 15% provincal taxes = 24.4% price difference ++. Anyone following my shady math?

So potentially, someone could have paid over 25% more than you for the same product to land in their hands.

 

[Gregmega]

I don't generally think that's what the gripe is that folks here are speaking to. Though I think everybody understands that, I don't think it's discouraged to recoup if it's fairly done.

To make it clear, at least for myself, I believe it's the practice of sniping Katos or Shigs or knives of the like and immediately selling them at a massive mark up- in a community that's by and large benevolent and not out to take advantage of each other, but here to support each other. It's especially discouraging because most people here see and are aware of where they are coming from, what they cost, and when they've been sold. It's a kin to your neighbor peeking over you fence and seeing you like to BBQ, but then jumping in front of the meat truck and grabbing the brisket before you have a chance and then selling it to you at a super premium.

Everyone pays shipping, but I count that as the convenience of having it brought to me, not a burden for the next guy to shoulder. Your geography is your choice, not the guy you're selling to.

 

[tgfencer]

Hey folks, I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate the general candor and respect that everyone who has contributed to this thread has shown while discussing a hot topic. The circumstances that lead to its creation aside, I actually think this thread has shown a great deal of community spirit despite differing opinions. I'll admit I winced a bit at first when I saw the title thinking this could go very badly, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I like being a part of a forum that can have an adult conversation without it flying off the rail and descending into accusation and name calling.

 

[welshstar]

Wine berserkers has a strict no comments about pricing policy, seems to work well