If I can't rock chop - why buy a gyuto over a santoku?

[Viggetorr]

So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos.

What are your thoughts?

 

[dwalker]

If you like to rock and are experiencing chipping, add a microbevel. Done.

 

[scott.livesey]

So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos. What are your thoughts?

goes back to what shape blade works the best for 'Your' style of cutting. I prefer the straight cutting edge found on a cleaver, nakiri, or some deba. my issue is not with rock chopping as much as the "Machine Gun" chop you see chef's do on cooking shows. a kitchen knife is an extension of your hand that cuts. a knife with properly shaped handle, low weight, and good balance should almost 'disappear' in your hand. I would invest in several less expensive blades of different shapes until you find the shape that best suits you. then invest the bucks.

 

[K813zra]

So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos.

What are your thoughts?

Hum, that is very broad. Tons of gyutos have a snub nose tip that is low to the board and santoku like as it is. In this case, for me, the only advantage is length and what comes with it. What comes with it is often more flat but I have found many santoku knives to have a lot of usable flat as it is. I find Sanjo made knives to be like this. Santoku like profile, beefy and loads of usable vs dead flat. Sometimes more of a light curve throughout.

Now, you can go the direction of a French profile or thereabouts. You can down size from a typical gyuto and up size from a santoku and get something in the 180-200mm range. Something that is short, in height. Say a 180 that is 39-41mm tall and have yourself a not quite petty and not quite gyuto. I like such a thing as I can manage it in hand, trim silver skin and even break down fish and not feel like I am using an ax!

Of course you have those who will tell you about all of the tip work you will miss out on with a gyuto as well. Sure, there are tons of reasons to go with a gyuto over a santoku. However, go with what you like. I use both small gyutos and santokus frequently. I typically prefer my santoku for onions because they do not ride up over the spine and fall on the back side of my cutting surface. (Yes, that shows a lack of knife skills on my part. If I go fast enough with a short gyuto, this does not happen, but I like my fingers...)

 

[Chef_]

Rock chopping is for barbarians, thats why.

 

[Chef_]

If youre talking about gliding, where you keep the tip intact with the board while cutting, it should be fine with a gyuto, youre just not going to be able to get as high as a german profile knife would. Gyutos are technically designed more for push cutting, but you can still use the "tip fulcrum" technique , just keep in mind the higher HRC and the flatter profile.

As for "rock chopping", which i know they teach in culinary school still, where you have your left hand on the spine and youre chopping while rotating the knife back and forth on the board.. its just a piss poor technique , save it for your cheap beaters, and train yourself in push/ pull cutting when using japanese knives.

 

[holdmyphone]

If youre talking about gliding, where you keep the tip intact with the board while cutting, it should be fine with a gyuto, youre just not going to be able to get as high as a german profile knife would. Gyutos are technically designed more for push cutting, but you can still use the "tip fulcrum" technique , just keep in mind the higher HRC and the flatter profile.

As for "rock chopping", which i know they teach in culinary school still, where you have your left hand on the spine and youre chopping while rotating the knife back and forth on the board.. its just a piss poor technique , save it for your cheap beaters, and train yourself in push/ pull cutting when using japanese knives.

Have to agree with this. A fine tool requires fine handling, and rock chopping that is not! It will simply destroy your fine edge very quickly. Save the rock chopping for the Victorinox and Dexters that are found in professional kitchens everywhere. I always have a stainless Messermeister for the occasion that I need to hack something up, personally.

 

[HRC_64]

Rock-chopping is correct technique for corner-case situaions...eg maybe nuts and certain herb admixtures...but the answer to the OP's question is you have a knife for that type of work...just like all of your other specialty knives (boning, fishe, etc).

Just because your main knife doesn't work in 100% of situations doesn't mean the main knife is not designed correctly.

edit: The utility of the tip on the gyuto or chef knife vs santuku is IMHO a whole different discussion.

I personally would recommend almost any other profile in 165-180 before the santuku. A small chef/gyuto, funayki, ko-deba, line knife, petty, suji+gyuto hybrid...whatever you want to call it...probably a k-tip...just because the acute-angle tip itself provides a utility lacking in a sheeps-foot type tip.

Others don't see it that way and prefer the tradeoffs of the santuku.

 

[chinacats]

There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong. Point is that there's nothing wrong with doing it with a high hardness knife...all about the technique. Pretty sure he's using a gyuto there. To the op, if you prefer a santoku there's no shame in that.

 

[Chef_]

There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong. Point is that there's nothing wrong with doing it with a high hardness knife...all about the technique. Pretty sure he's using a gyuto there. To the op, if you prefer a santoku there's no shame in that.

Ehh, you could make salsa by smashing tomatoes with a crowbar , that doesnt make it the correct technique . There might be nothing "wrong" with rock chopping, but why continue to encourage bad technique?

 

[brainsausage]

Rock chopping has its place. Just don't torque the edge while you're doing it. Which also takes a bit of technique I suppose. More to the point of the OP, J-knives aren't that fragile, but they also won't withstand the abuse that most of the heavily industrialized nations have ascribed to most tools. It's best to know your tool, know it's limitations, and apply it to the task best suited to its specs. The easily grasped handle doesn't necessarily dictate its use as a hammer.

 

[Duckfat]

Just don't torque the edge while you're doing it.

I think this is spot on. The issue seems to be that some want to rock chop and walk the knife across the board at the same time. Very easy to torque a thin edge like that. When I need to do something like this I usually reach for a cleaver.

Dave

 

[supersayan3]

There are different profiles of both gyuto and santoku.
If you have the chance, play with some.
Gyutos are very good for vertical cutting as well, and they are shorter, less friction.
I work with two santokus, don't have so short gyuto, Ryusen Blazen and Hiromoto white Honyaki, very different profiles, I enjoy them both, the Blazen, even without touch up, can be sharp even after a month for most chefs
Not to me, but I love sg2 and my Blazens anyway

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

The problem is, most advantages of rock chopping (walking, positive separation) come from techniques that subtly do involve torqueing the knife

 

[WOK-a-holic]

Have you tryed a Chinese style cleaver? almost instantly I was ADDICTED to chopping.
Then I ditched all my German/ French knives . haven't even looked back .

CARBON steel Chinese cleaver + WOOD chopping block, is all I need.

If I had to switch, my ONLY other choice would be a SANTOKO
(and I would use just like cleaver)

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Funny thing is, WHEN I want to rock chop or powermince (blade held two handed, rocking or guillotining wildly) something, cleavers are just what I reach for

 

[cheflivengood]

I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.

 

[Duckfat]

There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong.

This one?
[video=youtube;K7LtTbxIlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LtTbxIlTE[/video]

For Rock Chopping ya definitely need a little Metallica! :viking:

Dave

 

[chinacats]

This one?
[video=youtube;K7LtTbxIlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LtTbxIlTE[/video]

For Rock Chopping ya definitely need a little Metallica! :viking:

Dave

Thanks Dave, I thought so but from watching it i Ii thinking about something else where he rocks a bunch of herbs. Still appreciate the link as it is one of my favorite theory vids...at least now I have a good excuse to go look through some of his other ones.

 

[ThEoRy]

Ehh, you could make salsa by smashing tomatoes with a crowbar , that doesnt make it the correct technique . There might be nothing "wrong" with rock chopping, but why continue to encourage bad technique?

There's a difference between bad technique and employing a technique badly.

About the mango salsa vid. It's like 97% push cutting 2.5% slicing and .5% rocking.

I'll look around my page but I think in the chiffonade vid I employ some proper rocking.

 

[chiffonodd]

I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.

+1 I see nothing wrong with carefully "rock chopping" to finely mince garlic, herbs, etc. Just don't twist and mash the s#&$! out of the blade. If it chips, you're using too much pressure and torquing, and/or you've pushed the edge geometry of your knife beyond the performance capability of the alloy.

 

[ThEoRy]

Proper rocking. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

[video=youtube;WaMdLa1_BFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaMdLa1_BFw[/video]


Even walking can be done without detriment. Then I'm just having a little fun Martin Yan style because eff you parsley. That's why.

[video=youtube;ki9KErH1oEY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9KErH1oEY[/video]

 

[TheCaptain]

Even walking can be done without detriment. Then I'm just having a little fun Martin Yan style because eff you parsley

Quote of the day! [emoji5]

Which knive was that?

 

[Nemo]

Quote of the day! [emoji5]

Which knive was that?

Looks to be the Tanaka R2 ironwood. From memory, I think Rick has the laseresque version.

 

[Duckfat]

Even walking can be done without detriment.

Good Technique. The thing I've seen many do is use too much down force and then not lift the leading edge to to the tip as they walk across the board. Of Course most of that traces back to inexperience and a less than ideal edge. Can't even say how many times I've seen some one turn rocking into an all out assault on a cutting board.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Rick's techniques are legit, but somehow I do all the cooking when he's around?

 

[StonedEdge]

I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.

This x 100

 

[HRC_64]

The problem is, most advantages of rock chopping (walking, positive separation) come from techniques that subtly do involve torqueing the knife

also...sometimes it helps "pull-things-together"

...for example the salsa example is classic

pure cutting is not always the goal

edit: although not in the vid above do you see the approach of combinatorial rock-chopping

 

[ThEoRy]

Rick's techniques are legit, but somehow I do all the cooking when he's around?

Dude anytime you see me is my day off from cooking! Lol. And sometimes I break down whole salmon or snapper, I've brought chickens. I do stuff too.

 

[malexthekid]

Dude anytime you see me is my day off from cooking! Lol. And sometimes I break down whole salmon or snapper, I've brought chickens. I do stuff too.

Haha that sounds like my cooking... I do stuff