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Iceman91 said:
I am not really sure why it seems a lot of people on here think Kramers knives are so ridiculously priced. His damascus are 400 an inch so a 10in would be 4k. I realize it is a ton of money but not too long ago Carter was selling a damascus deba for 3500+ i believe and people have nothing but good things to say about him while people seem to criticize Kramer a lot on here. not to mention Kramer's damascus patterns are more impressive. I have had to pleasure to use (not own), a meiji handled Kramer and it felt, looked, and cut amazingly. Just my thoughts here.

Mike
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I completely agree. You have to draw a line between the regular prices Bob charges, which IMHO are not unreasonable if compared to other custom makers, and those astronomical prices he gets on his auctions. You can't blame HIM that people are ready to shell out that many dollars for one of his knives. I think any of us would happily take the money. Many of the negative comments are pure envy. And there definitely is more demand than supply for his custom knives. So he needs to find a way of dealing with it.

Bob was lucky that he got great PR, and he admits it. So what? At the end he does make great knives and seems like a good guy. To me, this is all that matters.
 
I understand the push against Bob, but I argue any of you that would do "the right thing". If you had a product that did as well as his, you would sell for less? I would pay to know the candid answer. I do admit that a guilty pleasure is reading threads like this, but always get frustrated by the negative vibe against Bob. Luckily, and I admit it, I got in at the right moment and purchased my damascus for cheaper than my straight steel. So technically, no matter what I sell it for I will make a profit. I have no plans on selling it though, bubble or not, and enjoy having it and seeing it whenever I like. For what it's worth, I think it's worth getting on the list for his straight steel, it's worth it if your name comes up. I use mine all the time, love it.
 
AFKitchenknivesguy said:
I have no plans on selling it though, bubble or not, and enjoy having it and seeing it whenever I like. For what it's worth, I think it's worth getting on the list for his straight steel, it's worth it if your name comes up. I use mine all the time, love it.
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And you should enjoy using the damascus one too! Get it out of hiding and put that baby to some food!! :razz:
 
Just for the record. I've never complained about his prices.
 
RRLOVER said:
Capitalism makes this country what it is :thumbsup

Right. Of course, the implication is that this is necessarily a good thing, as evidenced by the smiley. Not everyone would agree; your comment is kind of like the gratuitous "praise the lord" remarks that creep into some posts . .
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Cipcich said:
RRLOVER said:
Capitalism makes this country what it is :thumbsup

Right. Of course, the implication is that this is necessarily a good thing, as evidenced by the smiley. Not everyone would agree; your comment is kind of like the gratuitous "praise the lord" remarks that creep into some posts . .
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I have no idea how you pulled "praise the lord" out me loving capitalism:scratchhead:........I am sure that anyone who started a small business and became successful would agree with me.
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Knifefan said:
I completely agree. You have to draw a line between the regular prices Bob charges, which IMHO are not unreasonable if compared to other custom makers, and those astronomical prices he gets on his auctions. You can't blame HIM that people are ready to shell out that many dollars for one of his knives. I think any of us would happily take the money. Many of the negative comments are pure envy. And there definitely is more demand than supply for his custom knives. So he needs to find a way of dealing with it.

Bob was lucky that he got great PR, and he admits it. So what? At the end he does make great knives and seems like a good guy. To me, this is all that matters.
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Hey, i might be fool, which would be fortunate, but i think deba needs more skill than straight knife to produce?
Anyways still my brain cannot comprehend why would you shell out even a grand on a cutting tool.
 
bieniek said:
Hey, i might be fool, which would be fortunate, but i think deba needs more skill than straight knife to produce?
Anyways still my brain cannot comprehend why would you shell out even a grand on a cutting tool.
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Maybe. Debas would require MUCH thicker, heavier billets. Also, all damascus isn't made with the same number of steps, the same amount of work or the same amount of waste.
 
You mentioned cost of materials, which is what I wouldnt think of, I thought about the heat treatment of such a thick knife.
Isnt that what you pay for?
 
bieniek said:
You mentioned cost of materials, which is what I wouldnt think of, I thought about the heat treatment of such a thick knife.
Isnt that what you pay for?
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Some heat treatments are more expensive, for sure but barring the initial set-up costs, I would guess most of the cost of making damascus is labor. From the consumer perspective, that's more complicated. I think they (we) are paying for an idea, a name and maybe a certain look or prestige. It has little to do with real performance. If it did, everyone would stick with sub-$200 knives that perform nearly as well as a custom.
 
Sometimes you want what you want. We, the general knife knut public and the wealthy collectors have created a market that tells us, yes, in fact a Kramer is worth a few thousand dollars. Good for him and good for those of us who can afford one. I know I can't but by nature, I'm more of a bargain hunter.
Would I buy a Kramer for $5000? Nope. Would I buy one for $750? Quite possibly....
 
Generally I find thicker knives easier to make. It is easier to choose a nice pattern for a thicker blade, as there will be less distortion forging it out. Ht is easier with the blade less likely to warp than a thin blade. I guess if they charge that much, its just because they can. More power to them. Makes a change to see someone making something of high quality and making a packet, rather than churning out shite and getting rich off it.
 
Please keep in mind you are not only paying for the physical object, in this case a knife, or maybe the damascus its made of, but you are also paying for the time it took the maker to get to his current skill level. We seem to have no trouble paying a medical doctor for his services, or even your local auto repairman. Both of these professions require quite a bit of training, and in a way you are not only paying for their services, but paying for their training as well. It is fairly straightforward to make a kitchen knife shaped object, but as many of you know that does not necessarily mean that it will be a well performing knife. The details of profile and geometry are very important to a high level performance, and the skill level necessary to achieve them also requires some time to develop and perfect.
Now I know that a kitchen knife is not on the same level as a well running car or a heathy body, but all of us here are obsessed to one degree or another with knives, or we would not be here. So the skill level of the maker does carry some weight.
Although Bob Kramer is an abs mastersmith, I am sure many of you know that organization has very little focus, if any, on the style of knives that we are facinated by.
Unfortunately, that leaves us in the west with no possibility of certification comparable to a doctorate in kitchen knifemaking.
Just keep in mind that when you are purchasing a knife, you are purchasing part of that makers skill, and the time it took him to obtain it.
Thanks,
Del
 
My limit is 3000 on a knife. Bob Kramer is to expensive for me :)
Im still glad he made it that far :) But without trying my guess is that Bill, Bob and Devin all are in the same league. Bob is just a better marketing person :)

My guess is that it will be harder for people to sell their kramer on ebay. Bob stopped using ebay for the money issue with ebay and to stop people to sell his knives at the same time his auctions is on :)
 
oivind_dahle said:
But without trying my guess is that Bill, Bob and Devin all are in the same league. Bob is just a better marketing person :)
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Custom knives in Bob's category are no longer just functional objects, they are close to a piece of art. You are paying for more than just material and craftsmanship. In terms of knife making skills, there may be a number of people in Bob's league. What sets Bob apart is that he is more than just a custom knife maker. He is an artist. First, he has that 360 degree experience of knives; using them as a professional chef, sharpening and now producing them. So his knives are ultimately functional. Second, he is creative and has a good design sense. He designs his knives by himself, and they are beautiful, even judged from a more professional design perspective. Third, he definitely is a good marketeer and a good public speaker. This combination is what makes him so successful.
 
Delbert Ealy said:
...you are also paying for the time it took the maker to get to his current skill level...
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I completely disagree. If it takes one guy 10 years to make a great knife and another 1 year, I'm not going to pay a premium for a knife from the first guy, at all. Equal skill level should garner equal value. Once you get beyond basic needs, it is really all about perception. If people think it's cool and special, they will pay for it regardless of actual performance. As Oivind has mentioned, in some cases, it is the background story that makes the knife special. In that way, I would agree.
 
Delbert Ealy said:
Please keep in mind you are not only paying for the physical object, in this case a knife
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And I think thats exactly what you are paying for. Piece of wood and metal. Few can do it really well, and its not sport for everyone, but damn, youre not painting new Guernica! Art? At the end of the day its about repetition.

I think the bubble is getting pumped by those who not necessarily want one, or like one, or will use one, but they sure want the bling, so... there you go, pay 4x more you ***! :D
And I completely agree with taking advantage of it.

But, as ancient Romans were saying, "truth is like arse, everyone have his own"
 
At the end of the day, price is determined both by quantity supplied (by the knife maker) and quantity demanded (by the consumer). If hype, media attention, a 'story', or perceived skill etc. shift the demand curve outwards, then that will result in an increase in price. If the maker reduces quantity supplied, that would also affect price. Let's say if Bob were to have an accident that affected his knifemaking or his age prevented him from keeping up or even just priorities (like family) change, then his quantity supplied would go down and also affect price.

As for the comparison to doctors, doctors are paid at drastically different rates even though they roughy go through the same education in terms of years. Pediatricians and anesthesiologists are paid significantly lower than dermatologists, orthopedic surgeons, and radiologists. A lot of this difference is because the AMA controls the quantity of doctors supplied by limiting med school slots and residency programs. And there are demand sides factors too, for instance elective consumer demand (botox, face lifts etc) increase the quantity demanded for dermatologist services and thus how that specialty is compensated. Dermatology residency programs are some of the hardest to get into in all of medicine.

At the end of the day, the interaction of supply and demand determine price. And though the length of time needed to master a skill might affect the total quantity of (good) knifemakers at any given time, it is only half of the equation (supply). Crazy consumers and how we are influenced by marketing are the irrational 'other half'. After Bob's CBS Morning feature, his price went up from $300 per inch to $400. Bob didn't change, we the consumer changed.

Many economists consider the idea of a meritocracy a myth for this very reason. Though we would like to think that work = reward, unfortunately that isn't the case because it ignores demand for a person's so-called merit.

See, I just supplied a lot of rambling, yet no one demanded it. Value in this case = around zero ;)

k.
 
oivind_dahle said:
My limit is 3000 on a knife. Bob Kramer is to expensive for me :)
Im still glad he made it that far :) But without trying my guess is that Bill, Bob and Devin all are in the same league. Bob is just a better marketing person :)

My guess is that it will be harder for people to sell their kramer on ebay. Bob stopped using ebay for the money issue with ebay and to stop people to sell his knives at the same time his auctions is on :)
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Real 10 inch damascus bob kramer on ebay right now for $1600, not a shun or a zwilling, nows your chance:wink:
 
thanks.

I was saving up for a new Burke :S

My fav of all time is this one:
http://epicureanedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=88201

Except I want it to have hidden tang, one piece musk and that special bolster Bill and Im working on (well he does all the work, Im just a demanding customer). Then I could have a burke threesome, and this are knives I will use.

I have to think about this. The Kramer is beautiful and it would be fun to have one in my collection, however its a 270 and Im no 270. If I bought this it would be a drawer queen, never to be used :S Im not sure I can defend using that amount of money on a knife :S

The Burke Im saving up to is probably gonna see a lot more use, and will be imo even more beautiful than this one. I have to think about it. It all comes down to my bonus or not this year. I know this in december. Argh!

I like to have knives, but I have knives I use. Drawerqueens is not what I want to have. Ive gotten rid of 2 240 Guytos this month, and just have 2 left. 3 are in the making, and Im not sure if I really need more than 5 gyutos :S

Im a home chef remember :)
 
I like how that person doesn't even mention that it has a saya :sad0:
 
Hate to say it but the blade on that Kramer looks great but the handle looks like crap, there is pitting all over it and it doesnt evern match the quality of a shun or zwillings kramer handle finish.

Just dont see the price being worth it, its sort of like some of the hifi gear that people pay silly money for because a magazine tells them its OK, they have no idea why they are spending the money they just do.
 
Meh, it's a run of the mill Kramer.

When I sent my first one back, Bob, some what defiantly said, "send it back, I'll make you a perfect knife!". Damned if he didn't.

I'm wiser now. If I could do it over I wouldn't have sold it. IMO his best work.

Slide show "'l

 
Salty

The handle there looks immaculate, beautiful wood well finished.

Seems a bit weird that you have to complain at those prices to get the high quality !!
 
The guy on ebay says his knife is 298 grams. That is much heavier than my Meji style in 52100 (236 grams). Are his damascus knives usually that heavy or is it the western handle that makes the difference?
 
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