Need Natural stone help: Hard Black Arkansa vs any Good JNAT

[JesusisLord]

I've been posting about saving up for a natural stone to finish my razor after using a 12k Naniwa stone. Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice on what to look out for, including checking out Yahoo auctions. After putting some good stones on my watch list and seeing the final prices, I can definitely say it's cheaper than eBay. However, I'm not sure how much shipping to the U.S. will be.

I've also noticed the lines that some of you mentioned in my previous posts, and now I can clearly see in some pictures, especially on eBay, that the lines aren't just on the surface but run deep in some postings, which looks like it could mess up the honing process. As I said before, I'm saving up and planning to look for an Okudo or something that looks nice and not sketchy.

But here's where I'm starting to shift gears: I keep seeing a lot of people talking about Dan’s Hard Black Arkansas stones. I've watched several YouTubers shaving off a Black Arkansas edge, and it looks buttery smooth. Some American YouTubers say it's the finest grit stone they've felt (doesn't mean smoothest shave), even after trying several JNats. Of course, this isn't a unanimous opinion, but it’s compelling.

Now, I’m leaning toward getting a Dan’s Hard Arkansas because I prefer my stones to not only perform well but also look nice. I know I’d have to pay a premium for a nice looking JNat, but Dan’s Black Arkansas stones seem to be in perfect shape, with nice, squared-off edges. I already own an Atoma lapping stone and 3M sandpaper ranging from 80 grit to 5000 grit for polishing. I've read that if you get an Arkansas stone, it's mandatory to lap it, and finishing the surface with 1000 - 2000 grit range is key for achieving a buttery smooth razor hone.

Does anyone here own both a JNat and an Arkansas? Which do you prefer? I’m also planning to get a coticule later on, as I like that coticules come in good shape at a lower price.

What are your thoughts? I know I can score a good-looking JNat from Yahoo auctions, but the descriptions are often vague, so there’s no guarantee that you’ll get a great finishing stone. On the other hand, with Dan’s Black Arkansas stones, I feel I have a much higher chance of getting a good stone for my money.

Do high-quality JNats provide a better shave? If so, I might continue my hunt on Yahoo Auctions.

Haha, I've already fallen down the rabbit hole of natural stones! This isn't great because I’m always buying new PC parts and other electronics, and I’ve dumped thousands of dollars into them at this point. I can't keep up with technology, something new comes out every month!

 

[Legion74]

I have several Jnats and even more true hard Arks.

Surgical black and Translucent Arks are pretty much a guaranteed thing, and as long as you don't end up with a Dunston masquerading as a black Ark (happens all the time) the stone will work as advertised, and one is pretty much the same as the next.

Jnats, on the other hand, have a HUGE variation, and unless you are buying the stone off someone who is an experienced razor honer who you trust, all bets are off.

An Ark from Dans is a much safer option. Jnats are more interesting, but a bigger chance you will buy a pup.

 

[HL99]

It's really up to personal preference as of shaving feel. I would agree with @Legion74 that arks from Dan is a much safer choice, especially if you're new.

 

[JesusisLord]

I have several Jnats and even more true hard Arks.

Surgical black and Translucent Arks are pretty much a guaranteed thing, and as long as you don't end up with a Dunston masquerading as a black Ark (happens all the time) the stone will work as advertised, and one is pretty much the same as the next.

Jnats, on the other hand, have a HUGE variation, and unless you are buying the stone off someone who is an experienced razor honer who you trust, all bets are off.

An Ark from Dans is a much safer option.

This is exactly what I was thinking!

Are these legit?
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/DN...WivFFtPRhIiXoRXOJS5FwRwSNIOQ6E2e2B9Y2cunkRoci

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/...as-stone-in-wooden-box?variant=48626813370670


Or should I just buy from Dan.

 

[refcast]

Arkansas stones are pretty darn good. I think less forgiving than jnats -- arguably slower than almost all jnats, more shallow scratches. I actually really do like the hard Arkansas edge when I shaved with it, and it felt keener than my almost all my razor jnats.

Personally, I prefer jnats because they're more silky buttery or smooth -- I have to be more careful with prep, cleaning, angle and pressure with Arkansas since it's harder. I definitely felt I had to pay more attention. They also require me to use them as a very final stone, after careful prep -- but you already have the high grit synthetic stones so you're good.

Arkansas feel almost glass hard, jnats feel like they're self-lubricated, very fine powder releases and an almost silky feel, or like smooth skin almost, that's why I prefer them

So shave wise ... Arkansas was more silent, less resistance, I felt I had a little less control, very smooth and keen though, jnat was more tactile and buttery

You'll get wherever you want to be stone wise anyway, might take a while, not a huge deal

 

[Legion74]

This is exactly what I was thinking!

Are these legit?
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/DN...WivFFtPRhIiXoRXOJS5FwRwSNIOQ6E2e2B9Y2cunkRoci

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/...as-stone-in-wooden-box?variant=48626813370670


Or should I just buy from Dan.

Just buy the finest grade from Dan to be safe. The one above in the Dans box is probably safe, but I wouldn't know if I'd trust the other.

Just FYI. There is a stone known as Dunston, which comes from Arkansas. Rather than being novaculite it is a type of slate. There are some sellers, on ebay and other places, who sell it as hard black Arkansas stones, and get away with it because it is hard, black and from Arkansas. But it's not the same type of stone as the highest SG stone that Dans mines.

It's one of the reasons I mainly stick to translucent Arks for my collection. At least you can visually tell what you are getting easily.

 

[JesusisLord]

Just buy the finest grade from Dan to be safe. The one above in the Dans box is probably safe, but I wouldn't know if I'd trust the other.

Just FYI. There is a stone known as Dunston, which comes from Arkansas. Rather than being novaculite it is a type of slate. There are some sellers, on ebay and other places, who sell it as hard black Arkansas stones, and get away with it because it is hard, black and from Arkansas. But it's not the same type of stone as the highest SG stone that Dans mines.

It's one of the reasons I mainly stick to translucent Arks for my collection. At least you can visually tell what you are getting easily.

Thanks!

The United States needs to mine more whetstones. There’s no way Japan is the only place on earth with an abundance of high-quality stones.

 

[JesusisLord]

Arkansas stones are pretty darn good. I think less forgiving than jnats -- arguably slower than almost all jnats, more shallow scratches. I actually really do like the hard Arkansas edge when I shaved with it, and it felt keener than my almost all my razor jnats.

Personally, I prefer jnats because they're more silky buttery or smooth -- I have to be more careful with prep, cleaning, angle and pressure with Arkansas since it's harder. I definitely felt I had to pay more attention. They also require me to use them as a very final stone, after careful prep -- but you already have the high grit synthetic stones so you're good.

Arkansas feel almost glass hard, jnats feel like they're self-lubricated, very fine powder releases and an almost silky feel, or like smooth skin almost, that's why I prefer them

So shave wise ... Arkansas was more silent, less resistance, I felt I had a little less control, very smooth and keen though, jnat was more tactile and buttery

You'll get wherever you want to be stone wise anyway, might take a while, not a huge deal

"Personally, I prefer jnats because they're more silky buttery or smooth "

That part right there makes want a JNAT lol

 

[Legion74]

Thanks!

The United States needs to mine more whetstones. There’s no way Japan is the only place on earth with an abundance of high-quality stones.

It's not, but it is one of the few places that can extract and sell them and make it profitable. There used to be a bunch of different hones mined in the UK, for example, and the rock is still in the ground, but it's just not worth the expense of getting it out and cutting it into rectangles.

Indonesia has quite a few interesting looking stones, but they have such a big population they can just stick to selling them domestically, so we don't hear much about them.

 

[jedy617]

Thanks!

The United States needs to mine more whetstones. There’s no way Japan is the only place on earth with an abundance of high-quality stones.

due to the geographic conditions hundreds of millions of years ago in what is present day Japan....unfortunately kinda. Jnats are pretty unique.

But yeah there are of course american stones, turkish, belgians, indonesians... most based on different types of rock.

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2017/03/31/kanji-japanese-natural-stones/

https://naturalwhetstones.com/natural-whetstones/japanese-natural-stones-jnats/#history

Some good info.

Why not just grab a cheaper koppa stone from somewhere like tennen toishi or japanesenatrualstones? I would suggest a nice small nakayama.

 

[JesusisLord]

due to the geographic conditions hundreds of millions of years ago in what is present day Japan....unfortunately kinda. Jnats are pretty unique.

But yeah there are of course american stones, turkish, belgians, indonesians... most based on different types of rock.

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2017/03/31/kanji-japanese-natural-stones/

https://naturalwhetstones.com/natural-whetstones/japanese-natural-stones-jnats/#history

Some good info.

Why not just grab a cheaper koppa stone from somewhere like tennen toishi or japanesenatrualstones? I would suggest a nice small nakayama.

Interesting information. Pretty much places like the U.S. and other developed nations, mining efforts may focus on larger, more immediately valuable resources, and potential whetstone-quality rocks could be neglected or wasted. Meanwhile, countries like Japan and others with a strong whetstone tradition have preserved their high-quality stone deposits for specific purposes like sharpening.

I'll check out a koppa on one of those websites and compare it to my Yahoo Auction watchlist to see which one offers the best price and quality.

 

[JesusisLord]

It's not, but it is one of the few places that can extract and sell them and make it profitable. There used to be a bunch of different hones mined in the UK, for example, and the rock is still in the ground, but it's just not worth the expense of getting it out and cutting it into rectangles.

Indonesia has quite a few interesting looking stones, but they have such a big population they can just stick to selling them domestically, so we don't hear much about them.

Thanks! Makes sense!

 

[jedy617]

https://ikkyu-japanavenue.online/pr...razors-f-s-tk140?_pos=34&_sid=12d20d580&_ss=r

Something like this might be perfect. They have a lot of other Nakayama and asagi stones too which are usually quite hard. A couple other razor combo trial sets and other fine stones. Didn't check but might have some okudo, etc. Ikkyu is a good retailer.

 

[jedy617]

But yes as others said, watch for variations. You definitely cannot guarantee one mine or one layer will always perform the same stone to stone... it's more like general trends and predictions.

That's why it's nice a lot of these sellers will write notes about the specific stone. If you are spending $100+ in my opinion it's not really worth to buy unless they give notes, unless you want to go for a hail marry on the yahoo auctions for something hard to get in hopes it will be good. I have had 3-4 ohira suitas, all good but all slightly different feeling and finishing for example

 

[refcast]

Razor jnat stones are usually this kind of compact midsize shape. Regular size stones are around 180mm - 210mm, and around 1000g, while razor specific jnats are around 150mm long, and around 500-700 g.

Here's an example I sold awhile ago with slurry and polish pics for "study" reference.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/razor-koppa-612-g.60118/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/jnat-finisher-koppa.55233/

Which is to say, that's the shape, size, and weight of stone I'd recommend you look for. This example had sawn sides, which is a good sign, means they were selected to be cut and sold. If there aren't saw marks then its scrap sometimes . . . unless all the sides are red or black oxide. The remaining uneven sides have red or black oxide, which fine and normal. It reduces the price, but means the stone was good enough to sell still. And no toxic lines, and in this case no lines. There's a slight sesame dot pattern that seems to be present on some of my favorite razor finishers. For a razor, I'd recommend no suita -- so no su, no inclusions, no fine line preferably. Lastly, this one has chisel marks on the back, which is a good sign as well, from it being chiseled out of the mine. For visual surface texture, you'll want to see a smooth surface, as opposed to something coarser like an aoto -- I have some pictures online on kkf here somewhere. But yeah, you can look on hitohira, or aframestokyo, or aterlier tennen toishi or other websites to see grit, hardness, or maybe even polish pics, and try to match them to the stone visuals

 

[JesusisLord]

Razor jnat stones are usually this kind of compact midsize shape. Regular size stones are around 180mm - 210mm, and around 1000g, while razor specific jnats are around 150mm long, and around 500-700 g.

Here's an example I sold awhile ago with slurry and polish pics for "study" reference.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/razor-koppa-612-g.60118/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/jnat-finisher-koppa.55233/

Which is to say, that's the shape, size, and weight of stone I'd recommend you look for. This example had sawn sides, which is a good sign, means they were selected to be cut and sold. If there aren't saw marks then its scrap sometimes . . . unless all the sides are red or black oxide. The remaining uneven sides have red or black oxide, which fine and normal. It reduces the price, but means the stone was good enough to sell still. And no toxic lines, and in this case no lines. There's a slight sesame dot pattern that seems to be present on some of my favorite razor finishers. For a razor, I'd recommend no suita -- so no su, no inclusions, no fine line preferably. Lastly, this one has chisel marks on the back, which is a good sign as well, from it being chiseled out of the mine. For visual surface texture, you'll want to see a smooth surface, as opposed to something coarser like an aoto -- I have some pictures online on kkf here somewhere.

Thanks for the information! I’ve learned a lot from all the tips you guys have shared, and now I can definitely spot flaws in some JNATs online!

 

[refcast]

Here's what you should not buy, and how it looks

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...r-hard-super-ugly-suita-doorstop-stone.55001/

Here's a flawed stone with excellent, amazing grit, and super pretty coloration, probably the most enjoyable stone I've used when it works well, but not razor fineness. . . barely. Super smooth and pleasant, the best I've used

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/dawn-dusk-rainbow-suita.56717/

 

[Desert Rat]

I've been posting about saving up for a natural stone to finish my razor after using a 12k Naniwa stone. Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice on what to look out for, including checking out Yahoo auctions. After putting some good stones on my watch list and seeing the final prices, I can definitely say it's cheaper than eBay. However, I'm not sure how much shipping to the U.S. will be.

I've also noticed the lines that some of you mentioned in my previous posts, and now I can clearly see in some pictures, especially on eBay, that the lines aren't just on the surface but run deep in some postings, which looks like it could mess up the honing process. As I said before, I'm saving up and planning to look for an Okudo or something that looks nice and not sketchy.

But here's where I'm starting to shift gears: I keep seeing a lot of people talking about Dan’s Hard Black Arkansas stones. I've watched several YouTubers shaving off a Black Arkansas edge, and it looks buttery smooth. Some American YouTubers say it's the finest grit stone they've felt (doesn't mean smoothest shave), even after trying several JNats. Of course, this isn't a unanimous opinion, but it’s compelling.

Now, I’m leaning toward getting a Dan’s Hard Arkansas because I prefer my stones to not only perform well but also look nice. I know I’d have to pay a premium for a nice looking JNat, but Dan’s Black Arkansas stones seem to be in perfect shape, with nice, squared-off edges. I already own an Atoma lapping stone and 3M sandpaper ranging from 80 grit to 5000 grit for polishing. I've read that if you get an Arkansas stone, it's mandatory to lap it, and finishing the surface with 1000 - 2000 grit range is key for achieving a buttery smooth razor hone.

Does anyone here own both a JNat and an Arkansas? Which do you prefer? I’m also planning to get a coticule later on, as I like that coticules come in good shape at a lower price.

What are your thoughts? I know I can score a good-looking JNat from Yahoo auctions, but the descriptions are often vague, so there’s no guarantee that you’ll get a great finishing stone. On the other hand, with Dan’s Black Arkansas stones, I feel I have a much higher chance of getting a good stone for my money.

Do high-quality JNats provide a better shave? If so, I might continue my hunt on Yahoo Auctions.

Haha, I've already fallen down the rabbit hole of natural stones! This isn't great because I’m always buying new PC parts and other electronics, and I’ve dumped thousands of dollars into them at this point. I can't keep up with technology, something new comes out every month!

It is not necessarily mandatory to lap a Dan's, in fact the chances are pretty good that it will be dead flat if you get one. I have actually seen guys on other forms take a flat ark from Dan's and make it not flat by following bad advice.

All you may need to do is run a hardened steel over it to break loose any high spots (I use the back of a chisel). I don't know what it is about the factory lapping process and arks but loose grit rolls around on them until broke in.

I believe that if a ark is lapped that a scratch pattern running the length of the stone will produce a finer edge than random scratches. YMMV