Recommend me my first jnat

[Luminaire]

I've finally gotten pretty comfortable sharpening my knives and want to enter the rabbit hole of jnats. Looking for a recommendation for my first to use at the end to polish a wide bevel on blue carbons (1/2) and finishing the edge on most of my knives. Metals include blue 1, 2, super, skd, and maybe sg2 or vg10 if there will be benefit from using on stainless as well.

Current stones are shapton glass 500/1000/2000/4000 and gesshin 400/1000/6000s

Would preferably want to start out with 1 stone and see how I like it. Located in the US, and would prefer to spend around or less than $200 but pretty flexible.

Thanks!

2nd question- When sharpening, I tend to stop at 6k for the carbons, 4k for pm2, and 1-2k for the vg10. Do I just use the natural stone after? Or do I use it instead of the last stone that I would have used?

 

[user 50275]

Just for edges:
Huge advocate to thin behind the shoulder to a zero grind and then just use a fine stone for final micro edge.
Once thinned sharpening on only the finisher removes little metal and makes a lovely edge.
Only 2 stones needed. A courser or mid grit synth and a fine jnat.

Currently I really enjoy a super hard and fine finisher without slurry. Makes a very sticky edge. Can also do that with a softer stone like uchi under running water.

Polishing is a whole different ballgame.

So my recommendation. A nice suita

 

[user 16756]

@ethompson has several you might ask him about. the Aiiwa here is an extra 100 BUT I think that would be a really great first stone. JMO

https://tennentoishi.com/collection...=&filter.v.price.lte=&sort_by=price-ascending
where you stop on synths for edges depends on the natural stone in question. personally I only go up to 1k on synths then a midgrit then a finisher.

 

[labor of love]

Given your budget I think the Oouchis at JKI are pretty solid.

 

[M1k3]

Given your budget I think the Oouchis at JKI are pretty solid.

I'm no Jnat expert or anything. But I'd suggest this also. Decent polisher and great edges, from my experience with 1 example.

 

[labor of love]

For sure I’m no Jnat expert either which is part of the reason I recommend it. Felt like a pretty easy stone to figure out and use and get good results with as a noob. But I’ll always defer to people with greater knowledge on this topic.

 

[user 16756]

I think oouchis are fine stones, certainly good for edges, but even from the JKI options I'd probably rather have the Hideriyama

 

[labor of love]

I think oouchis are fine stones, certainly good for edges, but even from the JKI options I'd probably rather have the Hideriyama

Why do you prefer Hideriyama? Haven’t tried one yet.

 

[user 16756]

Why do you prefer Hideriyama? Haven’t tried one yet.

I just think it makes a nicer finish. Depends on the individual stone ofc but if I were putting my credit care in on JKI it'd be for that, not the Oouchi.

 

[KenjiF]

I have the hideriyama and it’s a solid stone. Mine is pretty soft, self slurry and pretty fast. Finer than my Mauro suita by a little bit. JKI recommended it for edges not polishing but I use for both.

 

[KenjiF]

@ethompson has a ‘colourful suita’ and @jedy617 has a Hakka Tomae in the BST that would probably fit the bill.

The difference with a natural stone edge is it’s not a consistent grit. The peaks and valleys at the apex are smaller and larger. This will mean that there are some larger ones that will give your edge bite and finer ones that will give it more ‘sharpness’. There is a good argument that this will also extend the life of the edge but tend to touch up before my edges reach the end of usability so I can’t tell from personal experience. I would focus on stones to end with because of this.

For polishing, natural stones will also contain particles that are harder than the cladding but softer than the steel so you can use that to get interesting effects.

For a kitchen knife edge I’d recommend a softer stone. They tend to be not as fine as the harder stones and easier to use. A suita is a good choice because they tend to be pretty fast. I just got an aizu from atelier tennen Toshi that is a ‘mid grit’ Jnat stone that is pretty amazing for a 4-6k edge. For edges there are plenty of natural stones that aren’t jnats as well to explore. Couticles and Belgium blue whetstone are a good fit.

I was in a similar position earlier in the year (I wanted to focus on polishing as well) and I ended up getting as many koppa and small stones as I could to find out what I liked and now am purchasing based on those.

Have fun!

 

[nakiriknaifuwaifu]

where's that dood @ethompson he knows many a rock good

 

[Luminaire]

So my earlier post is waiting for approval (probably because I'm a new member and I included links) but I'm going to increase budget to ~400. My current thoughts are:
Hideriyama from JKI
the colorful suita from ethompson
One of the shoubu shiro suita or okudo suita from tennen toishi (not sure if too hard)
the aiiwatani from tennen toishi (not fine enough? not sure)
A maruoyama tenkasumi koppa from someone else on kkf
Something from watanabe (messaged him asking for a recommendation but haven't heard anything yet)

I think I'm mostly going to use it for the edge and polishing will take a backseat (for now lol, I can see why this is dangerous to get started). I tend to prefer edges that are more on the refined side with a "just right" (6k glass on the blues has been my sweet spot) amount of bite so I just want to make sure that my options are going to be fine enough.

Are all of these good options? Should I consider or remove anything else with the higher budget?

 

[user 50275]

So my earlier post is waiting for approval (probably because I'm a new member and I included links) but I'm going to increase budget to ~400. My current thoughts are:
Hideriyama from JKI
the colorful suita from ethompson
One of the shoubu shiro suita or okudo suita from tennen toishi (not sure if too hard)
the aiiwatani from tennen toishi (not fine enough? not sure)
A maruoyama tenkasumi koppa from someone else on kkf
Something from watanabe (messaged him asking for a recommendation but haven't heard anything yet)

I think I'm mostly going to use it for the edge and polishing will take a backseat (for now lol, I can see why this is dangerous to get started). I tend to prefer edges that are more on the refined side with a "just right" (6k glass on the blues has been my sweet spot) amount of bite so I just want to make sure that my options are going to be fine enough.

Are all of these good options? Should I consider or remove anything else with the higher budget?

Suitas from wat:

https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/suita.htm#
I'd say #26 if you are happy with the size is a bargain. 27000 yen with shipping and wat usually ships as gift. Bought 2 stones from him and both are marvelous.

#4 is also super interesting.

 

[user 16756]

So my earlier post is waiting for approval (probably because I'm a new member and I included links) but I'm going to increase budget to ~400. My current thoughts are:
Hideriyama from JKI
the colorful suita from ethompson
One of the shoubu shiro suita or okudo suita from tennen toishi (not sure if too hard)
the aiiwatani from tennen toishi (not fine enough? not sure)
A maruoyama tenkasumi koppa from someone else on kkf
Something from watanabe (messaged him asking for a recommendation but haven't heard anything yet)

I think I'm mostly going to use it for the edge and polishing will take a backseat (for now lol, I can see why this is dangerous to get started). I tend to prefer edges that are more on the refined side with a "just right" (6k glass on the blues has been my sweet spot) amount of bite so I just want to make sure that my options are going to be fine enough.

Are all of these good options? Should I consider or remove anything else with the higher budget?

tennen toishi and our own ethompson are one and the same individual.

the thing about natural stones is they can be so specific to the specimen you're looking at that nothing beats talking to the owner of the stone.

also keep in mind the numbering system is subjective and varies from person to person. we all consider the mid point to be somewhere, for some of us it's harder than others. personally for me 3 is the border between stones that make mud and stones that don't really. plus edges are not really the same as synths so what works for me may be too fine or too coarse for you. I personally almost never stop on anything as coarse as an Aizu, Aoto or 3K synth. I mostly use white steels and usually they get finished on my harder Ohiras or Okudo suitas, and I use edge trailing strokes which pushes them even finer. This works great for me and the food I cook and the fact that at home I'm never far away from my stones and strops. LOADS of folks around here will plow through mirrepoix off a 1K synth, something I wouldnt personally ever do. But it works for them, and my thing works for me for the very same task.

Unfortunately more than any other part of knife collecting when it comes to natural stones you just have to be willing to roll the dice, try some stuff out, figure out what YOU like, and hopefully share what you learn with the next person getting into it.

 

[Luminaire]

Thanks, ya I'm starting to get the impression that there are no objectively bad options and everything comes down to personal preference.
Watanabe recommended a uchigumori (can't link but it's on page 6, #27) but I do like the look of 26 on the suita page. Looks like there's almost no way I'm going to end up with only 1 haha.

 

[user 50275]

Thanks, ya I'm starting to get the impression that there are no objectively bad options and everything comes down to personal preference.
Watanabe recommended a uchigumori (can't link but it's on page 6, #27) but I do like the look of 26 on the suita page. Looks like there's almost no way I'm going to end up with only 1 haha.

Softer Uchi under running water will mimik a harder suita.
Personally I'm a fan of hard and fine stones for edges and I can echo what tcmx3 said.
I sadly used the chosera 1k for years in my progression for my primary bevel.

-Removes too much metal.
-Makes thinning often necessarity.
-Full progression takes ages. (Going 1k 3k 6k.. )

Thin the shoulders behind the edge until there is no more primary bevel
(here the 1k can do some work).

Grab hard finisher for micro edge/bevel, however you may call it.

And then I would go quality over size. Some weird 130x80 stone is usually so much cheaper than your full size 200x70.

Grab the smallest you are comfortable with, for your largest knife.

PS
Have fun with the journey. Naturals are just so damn beautiful .
And seal the stones! My aizu corner just randomly cracked off.

 

[KenjiF]

Uchi is more of a polishing stone IMO. Doesn’t mean it’s not good for edges but you are paying a premium for what it will do for a bevel. I have a few of Shinichis stones from Wat and they have been great and as described. Where in the US are you? If by chance you’re in LA and want to try some stones out you’re welcome to.

 

[Cliff]

I'd consider getting a Belgian Blue for edges and deburring. They're not too expensive. Polishing is a whole different thing. Definitely look at JKI or @ethompson for that.

 

[Luminaire]

Uchi is more of a polishing stone IMO. Doesn’t mean it’s not good for edges but you are paying a premium for what it will do for a bevel. I have a few of Shinichis stones from Wat and they have been great and as described. Where in the US are you? If by chance you’re in LA and want to try some stones out you’re welcome to.

Thanks so much for the offer, I'm in SD but come up to LA semi-often, I can send you a message next time I'm planning on heading up and see if we can work something out.
Much appreciated

Probably going to buy at least a stone before that though so that can give me ideas for afterwards haha

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

My personal 3 favorite stones for finishing knives are:

1) Ohira Suita
Most Suitas are going to do well with knives. Just make sure you get a good quality one of good shape and hopefully no cracks. Downside, these can get pricey.

2) Dan’s Washita
Equivalent to about 3K synthetic and sorta slow. Adds A LOT of bite. Priced really well the last time I looked at them.

3) Dan’s Hard Ark (note, not True Hard, Trans, or Black)
Equivalent to about a 6K synthetic. More refined edge than the Washita and very similar to the Ohira, just takes a bit longer to get there. Superb edge for a sashimi knife / yanagiba. Priced very well too.

 

[jedy617]

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/jedy-sells-a-nice-stone-dropping-price.65806/
Shameless plug only because this was my first stone and it's a very beginner friendly one.

 

[milangravier]

Hey,
My little advise : Why not a fine mid grit jnat ?
Uchi, hideriyama and other awasedo are great and smooth stones but they would be a tad too fine for edges for some kitchen users (if you like very smooth and fine edges around 5/6k you would like it)
In the other hand a mid grit like Aizu, Takima, Ikarashi, mikawa, some very fine natsuya, and some other unknown can give you fast stones, great toothy edges and for polishing they are useful : as easy as an awasedo with forced slurry but capable of a burnished effect (means lighter color and more details on the iron for a san mai). They are often bigger and cheaper than awasedo.
Where ? Tennentoishi or @ao.renge or @toishigram maybe!