which Jnats for max contrast??

[inferno]

I'm considering getting 1 or 2 jnats for doing bevels with.
I would like the darkest jigane and the brightest hagane possible.

Which stones would get me very good contrast? I know there are probably quite many of that will, but lets say 1 coarse-ish one and one fine one. I'm looking for a sure fire way of doing this.
I have seen some quite impressive pics on here so i guess you guys know how to do this.

I have a few 1k synths that give so-so contrast, the king hyper 1k for instance. but the surface is just too coarse, i would like that but with a much finer surface.

is it recommended to start with coarser one that creates good contrast and then step up to a finer one that does not remove it or can i use whatever as long as the finishing stone creates good contrast??

I guess i would like to know which mines/stratas/hardnesses that are mostly used for this, or those that are known to do it exceptionally well.

aframes/jns/watanabe are the primary shops i'm looking at now.

the cheaper the better obviously.

 

[RDalman]

In what angle/ light? It's a impossible question imo. You kindof have to play around a little with it to see what you like/if you like the process. And then it's far from all up to the stone, maybe even most is dependant on your technique and progression.
Maybe try getting something midgrit, and something ~suita. For budget, smaller stones like koppa and mount them on wood base.

 

[RDalman]

You can make kasumi with both hard and soft stones. Soft will be more forgiving but also take away some potential for better precision. I prefer on the hard side stones because I feel like this. Easy to wreck edge geo using soft stones.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Finger Stones.

 

[inferno]

In what angle/ light? It's a impossible question imo. You kindof have to play around a little with it to see what you like/if you like the process. And then it's far from all up to the stone, maybe even most is dependant on your technique and progression.
Maybe try getting something midgrit, and something ~suita. For budget, smaller stones like koppa and mount them on wood base.

any specific midgrits that are good for this? i see aotos/ikarashis/aizus/natsuyas seem popular. would these be a good starting point?

I have read up a bit lately and found out that uchigumoris seems to enhance this contrast well. but obviously these stones are always expensive.

 

[inferno]

what do you guys use for good kasumi contrast?? what has worked for you?

 

[RDalman]

what do you guys use for good kasumi contrast?? what has worked for you?

Super flat and even bevel, the coarse work is 96%, then I just go through hard synths and finish on hard suita for the contrast myself. Raise some slurry for the final mudwrestle if necessary.

 

[RDalman]

The uchi I have is softer and coarser than I like but do contrast sure. Maybe ~4k

 

[inferno]

i see. do you use any nagura for the slurry or just a diamond plate?

would you recommend a hard uchi over a soft for general use?

i just tried to bring out some contrast with a few 1k's i have here. jns and chosera/ naniwa pro 800. only the 800 made some contrast. I could get the finish even and all but its a bit underwhelming to be honest. its just dull and matte all over. on white/iron. gonna try out the king hyper next.

 

[RDalman]

i see. do you use any nagura for the slurry or just a diamond plate?

would you recommend a hard uchi over a soft for general use?

i just tried to bring out some contrast with a few 1k's i have here. jns and chosera/ naniwa pro 800. only the 800 made some contrast. I could get the finish even and all but its a bit underwhelming to be honest. its just dull and matte all over. on white/iron. gonna try out the king hyper next.

Diamond or nagura don't make huge difference imo. I don't even go for contrast on the synths, just on the finisher, fine natural. Very different with a decent polish finish on a fine natural.

 

[inferno]

i see. thanks for taking time to explain.

i did some experiments here with my synths.

king hyper 1k. a bit darker jigane than the nanipro800 BUT it was full of these silver streaks/scratches, and the longer i used it the worse it got, completely unusable imo. and its a quite well used stone so no top crust on it.
coticule nagura slurry (thick) on jns1k. erased all contrast.
coticule nagura slurry, thick (belgian blue side) on a glass 4k. restored about half of the contrast from the king (and no streaks). and it made the hagane very polished so thats cool.

but yeah it has become clear i need at least 1 good jnat for this. gonna have to read up on this obviously.

 

[M1k3]

I have no idea but what about the Oouchi and Hideriyama from JKI? Just curious as they aren't terribly expensive and from a good vendor.

 

[nutmeg]

A soft finisher with relative coarse grain size should give you good results f you‘re looking for contrast in color.
Maybe 2-3K like a very soft suita or uchigumori. I guess finer than 3k, the contrast decreases.
Btw uchigumori gives a whiter ha for the same „grit“ and „hardness“.
My eyes see Ikarashi< Aizu< Aoto are from 1 to 2,5k. I would prefer synth for this.

 

[geoff_nocon]

Best contrast in my experience is using both synth and a good soft hazuya. Bring the core up to mirror on a synth then darken the cladding using the uchi. A good hazuya for kasumi polishing shouldnt alter the finish on the hardened steel.

 

[inferno]

I have no idea but what about the Oouchi and Hideriyama from JKI? Just curious as they aren't terribly expensive and from a good vendor.

everything from the US will be (too) expensive for me. The SEK-USD rate used to be 1/7 or so and now its 1/10 since our country is, well, lets just say, severely mismanaged. on all levels.

 

[inferno]

thanks guys. i see there are more than 1 way to skin a cat.

on the jns site they have some koppas. https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/for-knives/?sort=priceasc
aiiwatani koppa and aiiwatani nashiji kiita, well the cheaper ones.

do you think these would be good for this? would any of the more expensive stones from that very page be quite promisng for this? if so which ones?

i'm quite tempted to just do as robin says and get a hardish suita though. i have read good things about suitas.

 

[RDalman]

yes the koppas from jns should be great also. Björn a friend smith got a aiiwatani koppa like that that's really nice.

 

[Barry's Knives]

Uchigomori stones are the most famous, and arguably easiest stones to achieve this contrast. Softer stones are easier to use, harder stones will leave a more refined finish. As has been mentioned already, fingerstones are certainly a secret weapon here. You can use synths up to a polishing stone and then let uchi fingerstones do the rest. In terms of wanting that contrast and doing it on a budget, start with finger stones which wont cost you more than 100 dollars maximum, then you can invest in awesedo stones if you want to. I got decent uchigomori fingerstones off ebay for 30 bucks. Havent looked back.

 

[inferno]

cool, then i probably try that first! thank you very much.

edit: this was a reply to robins post above..

 

[Barry's Knives]

thanks guys. i see there are more than 1 way to skin a cat.

on the jns site they have some koppas. https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/for-knives/?sort=priceasc
aiiwatani koppa and aiiwatani nashiji kiita, well the cheaper ones.

do you think these would be good for this? would any of the more expensive stones from that very page be quite promisng for this? if so which ones?

i'm quite tempted to just do as robin says and get a hardish suita though. i have read good things about suitas.

Koppas are a good way to go, but it would be a far better learning curve to go with a softer one, especially with aiiwatani which can be extremely fine.

 

[inferno]

Ok anything in specific from the jns site you think would be better suited for me?

not gonna buy a 2000€$ stone though.

i have quite a lot of experience in sharpening and finishing knives. i have flattened the bevels on all knives i have ever owned. i have about 30 stones or so. i guess i'm fairly experienced with even ultra hard stones such as shaptons (this is how i finish knives now). i think i'm fairly adaptive.


barry can you tell me a bit more about aiiwatanis in general? what are they good for and bad for?

 

[Barry's Knives]

Ok anything in specific from the jns site you think would be better suited for me?

not gonna buy a 2000€$ stone though.

i have quite a lot of experience in sharpening and finishing knives. i have flattened the bevels on all knives i have ever owned. i have about 30 stones or so. i guess i'm fairly experienced with even ultra hard stones such as shaptons (this is how i finish knives now). i think i'm fairly adaptive.


barry can you tell me a bit more about aiiwatanis in general? what are they good for and bad for?

Aiiwatani would work, it's just they can be quite hard, making it trickier to get an even finish if you havent used naturals before. For that reason I would suggest the level 3 koppa from jns rather than the level 4. For best contrast from everything on the site, my money would be in the ohira level 3.

 

[nutmeg]

Yes if you‘re looking for good results and with only one Jnat, take a soft one. Otherwise and depending on what you are getting, a too hard stone could make your blade look scratchy and with little contrast.
And if you‘re lucky with the softer stone you won‘t need finger stones in a first time.

 

[Barry's Knives]

I've just seen nutmeg has posted a bunch of pretty nice looking uchigomori on BST... maybe he can chime in if theres any there he could recommend?

 

[nutmeg]

I've just seen nutmeg has posted a bunch of pretty nice looking uchigomori on BST... maybe he can chime in if theres any there he could recommend?

If Inferno means brightest hagane, then 3) or alternatives. Very challenging to get brighter without being scratchy.
3)etc. give a totally matte surface so you don't have any reflections on the blade, only shadows. The light is trapped. You can get rainbow colors with the good light and angle of view.
Like on a 2,5k synth but scratch free.

A finer finish is easily doable with 2)etc. as single Jnat.
Contrast would be almost equal: slightly less on color, slightly more on texture. I find it is more esthetic on clad but I couldn't read something with semi-mirror core in Inferno's OP so 2) may not match with his project.

Jizuya are too fine and the Narutaki is too coarse for a single Jnat IMO.

 

[inferno]

i'm currently considering a karasu stone for like 1 grand from jns. lol. i really feel i need to have it. the rabbit hole is also a black hole with good gravity it seems.

not gonna get it though. for some weird reason a 500bux stone seems completely normal all the sudden. even though i dont really know enough about them. thats like 8-10 premium synths worth.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

I convinced myself to get a 1k+ JNS stone back in April. Probably overpaid but I got something incredible that has really developed my skills and perspective.

I’m still learning from this stone, this past week I broke it out and for the first time finished some Gyuto edges (instead of solely kiraha polishing). I am floored by the results I got. Toothy, super extra crisp apexes that are (to me) impossible with any combination of synths I’ve ever tried.

so jump in that rabbit hole. Both feet first!

 

[valgard]

i'm currently considering a karasu stone for like 1 grand from jns. lol. i really feel i need to have it. the rabbit hole is also a black hole with good gravity it seems.

not gonna get it though. for some weird reason a 500bux stone seems completely normal all the sudden. even though i dont really know enough about them. thats like 8-10 premium synths worth.

yep, that's exactly how it works. Sadly I'm waaaay past that point and 1k+ stones populate my current collection

 

[tgfencer]

yep, that's exactly how it works. Sadly I'm waaaay past that point and 1k+ stones populate my current collection

Haha, likewise. I sometimes worry that if I died suddenly, my poor wife would sell them for a pittance or use them to line a path in the yard. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe I should put into my will that I want all my jnats made into an awesome tombstone/whetstone smorgasbord and ask that there always be a spray bottle full of water resting on my grave. At the very least it would force my damn hypothetical children to visit me if they wanted to use my knives.

But to back to the point OP, I think everyone would agree that you should try grabbing a few different $100-300 rocks on the way down the hole, rather than going face first for that glory stone at the very bottom.

You can do all the research you want, but at some point, much like knives, it’s ‘a gotta try them all to figure out what works for you’ kind of game to jnat polishes/edges.

 

[kayman67]

I convinced myself to get a 1k+ JNS stone back in April. Probably overpaid but I got something incredible that has really developed my skills and perspective.

I’m still learning from this stone, this past week I broke it out and for the first time finished some Gyuto edges (instead of solely kiraha polishing). I am floored by the results I got. Toothy, super extra crisp apexes that are (to me) impossible with any combination of synths I’ve ever tried.

so jump in that rabbit hole. Both feet first!

This is why I've started to finish on a natural. Gives that something that was missing. But getting that natural is not as easy as it is for me write about it.