I just bought a new knife and I was asked to tip. I was kind of taken aback.

[user 16756]

For what it’s worth I had to deliberately opt out of tipping when setting up my web shop - maybe it wasn’t wasn’t deliberate. Regardless… not something I think is really great or ideal.

As for tipping more broadly I also generally agree. But as someone who operates quick service restaurants and is theoretically in a position to change away from a tipping model - the choice is an illusion. People when asked day they’d rather service, tax, etc. be baked into the shown pride, but every single operator who's tried has failed to do so successfully (excluding the highest level of fine dining). People shop by sticker price and if yours is higher than the next guys people won’t come. Unless there is legislation forcing change it’ll stay the way it is I’m afraid.

Also if you have ownership in a business and take tips (other than something odd like a one man show service or bar) you’re an ******* and doing something that likely is illegal or at the very least is ethically dubious.

agreed. the issue with trying to do away with tipping voluntarily is the same issue that all ruleless systems have.

if one person "cheats" and can get away with it, no one else will win, so then those people will just do it too. folks are trying to get by, not run food establishments as a hobby.

it's such a complex issue in the sense that the motivations behind tipping are all awful, truly bad. even the "I want to reward good service" doesn't even line up with empirical study about how much folks tip and who they tip to (conventionally attractive people, especially younger women, working behind bars seem to LOVE tipping). but yet we cant do away with it easily because {redacted}.

Email correspondence shown here in full, no edits:

My initial email:
A tip? For an online purchase? Seriously? Yes, I know there's an opt-out feature but it's offensive to even be asked.

I was going to buy a $19 item that had $12 shipping and I get asked if I want to give a tip?

Not long ago I wanted to ask a person a knife question but got an answering service saying you're too busy to answer the phone any more and now I don't even see a number and you are asking for tips?

That's unbelievable.

Their response:
Hi Erik,

Thanks for letting us know how this feature has affected you and I am sorry it has caused so much distress. We have the tip feature on the website based on feedback from customers who have asked if there was a way to show their appreciation for our staff and expertise. I understand that getting us on the phone is more difficult and this is for a few reasons; mainly because we are a very busy shop during business hours and most of the time, we are unable to answer the phone at worst or unable to spend the necessary time with phone customers at best.

If you would prefer to speak to someone on the phone, you are welcome to send an email requesting a callback. This allows us to call when we have the opportunity to spend the appropriate amount of time. If you still want to give us a call during open business hours, our number is listed on or google business listing that is found when you google "Bernal Cutlery".

We pride ourselves in being a source and resource and try to be as available as we can. Please reach out if you choose to do business with us in the future and have any questions.

Kyle

absolutely laughable.

look at this language. 100% minimizes their choice, shifts the blame onto you, paints the people who tip as virtuous and by comparison you as not.

there are too many choices to send my money to a place that has this outlook; because honestly that's gross. all in like 50 words. maybe not a huge deal in the grand scheme of the world, but the forum favorite places don't act like this so why put up with it?

idc about them being busy that doesn't bother me so much. sure other places will pick up the phone OK they cant/wont/whatever that's fine.

 

[blokey]

Lol this is so stupid, hope they get rid of it soon

 

[Namaxy]

I like to tip at my discretion, and have become increasingly turned off by the automated tip suggestions. Local, non-chain restaurant, server does a good job, I'm happy to tip. Chain coffee shop, you tap your card and they turn the Apple Pay screen around to you to poke the tip amount. I'm less inclined. An online storefront with a listed price, following up a purchase with an invitation to tip? No!

 

[jedy617]

Agreed If I get some amazing service from something like a retailer, I would possibly consider tipping on a rare occasion, but being promted to is super lame

 

[reisen]

Some big canton restaurants here just require 15% mandatory tip, not an default option that you can deselect. Plus the 13% HST, you are basically paying about 130% of the listed price.

 

[blokey]

Some big canton restaurants here just require 15% mandatory tip, not an default option that you can deselect. Plus the 13% HST, you are basically paying about 130% of the listed price.

It’s Service fee/服务费, pretty common in higher end Chinese restaurants. Some also charge a lot for wine opening fee if you bought your own.

 

[reisen]

It’s Service fee/服务费, pretty common in higher end Chinese restaurants. Some also charge a lot for wine opening fee if you bought your own.

But they are not really high end, as 20 CAD would be enough for one perosn. The service is also kinda rude, just like many restaurants (actually I mean 酒楼) in Hong Kong. I don't mind it though, as long as their foods are good.

 

[Rideon66]

This guy knows what's up.

One of the stores I manage has transitioned to foodservice. As a policy, we don't accept tips (the owners are Japanese, so they don't allow it). I do my best to pay a living wage (especially for my kitchen staff who genuinely are worth every dime), but Boston is one of the highest COL cities in the world.

It's tough. Since transitioning to foodservice, sales have been doing better but we're still not making a profit. The highest expense we have is staff wages by a long shot. Our meals range from the $12-$25. If we charge more, we lose sales. The front of house staff has started demanding tips or otherwise threatening to unionize (which is popular around here). The kicker is that I even offered higher pay instead of tipping because the owners really aren't into tipping, but the staff voted overwhelmingly for tips.

TLDR: businesses that don't accept tips don't make money. Even if you try and pay staff more in exchange, the staff just want tips rather than raises.

This is just a question I am curious about. Are they wanting tips so they don't have to declare it all and pay taxes on it or are they just making more on tip?

Yeah I agree though this is something that needs to go universal everywhere for it to work. It doesn't mean you can't give a small tip for service above and beyond at a real restaurant with sit down service. If we keep going like we are though we will be paying 50% tip on top of our bill.

What is interesting to me is we have a restaurant here we're you just pay what you can. Guess what it is doing awesome cause those that can do and those that can't get a little help and a break. Obviously this wouldn't work everywhere or universal, but shows there are other ways.

 

[toddnmd]

I would tip $.01

 

[blokey]

But they are not really high end, as 20 CAD would be enough for one perosn. The service is also kinda rude, just like many restaurants (actually I mean 酒楼) in Hong Kong. I don't mind it though, as long as their foods are good.

Sounds good, ruder the server better the food in Cantonese restaurants lol

 

[reisen]

Sounds good, ruder the server better the food in Cantonese restaurants lol

TRUE

 

[Ochazuke]

This is just a question I am curious about. Are they wanting tips so they don't have to declare it all and pay taxes on it or are they just making more on tip?

Yeah I agree though this is something that needs to go universal everywhere for it to work. It doesn't mean you can't give a small tip for service above and beyond at a real restaurant with sit down service. If we keep going like we are though we will be paying 50% tip on top of our bill.

What is interesting to me is we have a restaurant here we're you just pay what you can. Guess what it is doing awesome cause those that can do and those that can't get a little help and a break. Obviously this wouldn't work everywhere or universal, but shows there are other ways.

On average, they’ll make more on tips than they do on wages.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I no longer buy from RSK but I think I remember him asking for a tip s well. I may be wrong though

There is an optional tip button on their website, I always wondered if it was a secret button where good karma would get you a free stone chucked in or something. Obviously I'm not a good enough person to test the theory. Definitely seems like it was part of the web design template they used, I never really took it personally but get it being annoying especially on a $3-400 purchase.

Curious about your decision to no longer buy from RSK if you're willing to speak publicly about it. I've had like 7 good experiences and 1 proper bad one.

 

[naptight]

I no longer buy from RSK but I think I remember him asking for a tip s well. I may be wrong though.

yes they do.

 

[westcoastknives]

I called a while back. Maybe a couple months. I got a recorded message that they are too busy to field calls. I can't remember if they said to leave a message but I don't think so, I think it was just an instruction to email. Could be wrong.

Now I don't think they even list a number on the site.

They do take phone calls (I called last month) but admittedly the shop is always packed whenever I go in person. I am not surprised they don’t take a lot of phone calls.

I’ll admit the service online might leave something to be desired but Kyle especially at Bernal is a top notch dude. In person the service they provide even though they are usually swamped is always great and never rushed

 

[sansho]

at a bakery in chicago (lost larson):

lol, a non-removable 15% staff support fee is added to the bill. you can see it by hovering over the 'taxes and fees' at the bottom as i have done in the screenshot. i almost missed it and just assumed it was some city tax bs at first.

on top of that, 15% tip is selected by default. that's 30% tip!

a dark pattern. i'm sure many people don't notice the built in 15% and add tip on top of that.

why not just raise all the prices by 15% if it's mandatory? w tf?
i mean really, a cardamom bun is already $5.25. i'm not going to change my mind at $6. they already have me by the balls. and i can't exactly go to the shop next door for one. they sell unusual pastries.

this is just for picking up baked goods. you can buy them online ahead of time and have them set aside for you because a lot of their stuff otherwise sells out early.

i wonder if that support fee gets added on if you buy a croissant in person.

 

[sansho]

Even if you try and pay staff more in exchange, the staff just want tips rather than raises.

interesting. is it because they can get out of paying income tax on it?

 

[superworrier]

“Based on feedback from customers”

I want to meet this (alleged) person (people?) who begged to be able to tip at an online retail store

 

[sansho]

yep, an obvious lie

 

[M1k3]

I understand the suprise and discomfort being asked to tip an online store! Amazon et al is squeezing $$ out of fokls left and right so try steer clear of them.

yet tipping in general is part of the way the US economy works...so you basically want what the EU has? then also be prepared to pay all the taxes upfront....dollars or Euros, things need to be paid for....you have toll roads, we have freeways mostly yet much of the Eu is seemingly moving in the direction of toll roads.

there is much more behind this difference then meets the eye IMHO.

There's already toll roads here. And "fast lanes", which is a total BS name! They still have to drive the same speed limit. Just have to pay $1-4 (or more during "surge" times) for that privilege.

 

[M1k3]

Email correspondence shown here in full, no edits:

My initial email:
A tip? For an online purchase? Seriously? Yes, I know there's an opt-out feature but it's offensive to even be asked.

I was going to buy a $19 item that had $12 shipping and I get asked if I want to give a tip?

Not long ago I wanted to ask a person a knife question but got an answering service saying you're too busy to answer the phone any more and now I don't even see a number and you are asking for tips?

That's unbelievable.

Their response:
Hi Erik,

Thanks for letting us know how this feature has affected you and I am sorry it has caused so much distress. We have the tip feature on the website based on feedback from customers who have asked if there was a way to show their appreciation for our staff and expertise. I understand that getting us on the phone is more difficult and this is for a few reasons; mainly because we are a very busy shop during business hours and most of the time, we are unable to answer the phone at worst or unable to spend the necessary time with phone customers at best.

If you would prefer to speak to someone on the phone, you are welcome to send an email requesting a callback. This allows us to call when we have the opportunity to spend the appropriate amount of time. If you still want to give us a call during open business hours, our number is listed on or google business listing that is found when you google "Bernal Cutlery".

We pride ourselves in being a source and resource and try to be as available as we can. Please reach out if you choose to do business with us in the future and have any questions.

Kyle

Or... They could keep the tipping thing, but, don't make it automatic in adding an amount?

 

[M1k3]

This is just a question I am curious about. Are they wanting tips so they don't have to declare it all and pay taxes on it or are they just making more on tip?

Yeah I agree though this is something that needs to go universal everywhere for it to work. It doesn't mean you can't give a small tip for service above and beyond at a real restaurant with sit down service. If we keep going like we are though we will be paying 50% tip on top of our bill.

What is interesting to me is we have a restaurant here we're you just pay what you can. Guess what it is doing awesome cause those that can do and those that can't get a little help and a break. Obviously this wouldn't work everywhere or universal, but shows there are other ways.

In my state, tips are taxed. We also don't have a separate tipped minimum wage.

 

[Ochazuke]

interesting. is it because they can get out of paying income tax on it?

All tips are supposed to be treated as taxable income. Tips via credit card are easily traceable, so you’d have to be really dumb not to pay taxes on them. Also, roughly 95% of payments these days are via credit card so I don’t think the illusion of untaxed income is as relevant as it was say 30 years ago.

Cash tips are also supposed to be treated as taxable income but it’s hard to trace if a customer hands the server a five dollar bill and it just goes in the server’s pocket. Still cash tips are not a lot of money either way.

Rather than that aspect though, tips just generally add up to a much larger amount of money than wages. These days (especially in Boston) 20% is considered acceptable. If we do 200 covers at an average of $15 each, with 20% going back as tips, that’s $600 getting divvied up between 3 FOH staff members. Sometimes it’s more. Sometimes it’s less. But in a busy restaurant it’s not uncommon for servers to make more than managers. And they’re virtually guaranteed to make more than BOH (especially in MA where it’s illegal for kitchen workers to receive tips).

 

[blokey]

In my state, tips are taxed. We also don't have a separate tipped minimum wage.

Cal?

 

[Ochazuke]

at a bakery in chicago (lost larson):

View attachment 262153

lol, a non-removable 15% staff support fee is added to the bill. you can see it by hovering over the 'taxes and fees' at the bottom as i have done in the screenshot. i almost missed it and just assumed it was some city tax bs at first.

on top of that, 15% tip is selected by default. that's 30% tip!

a dark pattern. i'm sure many people don't notice the built in 15% and add tip on top of that.

why not just raise all the prices by 15% if it's mandatory? w tf?
i mean really, a cardamom bun is already $5.25. i'm not going to change my mind at $6. they already have me by the balls. and i can't exactly go to the shop next door for one. they sell unusual pastries.

this is just for picking up baked goods. you can buy them online ahead of time and have them set aside for you because a lot of their stuff otherwise sells out early.

i wonder if that support fee gets added on if you buy a croissant in person.

In many states it’s illegal for BOH to receive tips. The only way to legally give your BOH staff a percentage of sales (similar to tipping) is via a mandatory surcharge which is why it’s becoming more and more common. A lot of people assume it’s because restaurants are trying to scalp customers (and I’m sure there are a few that just pocket it), but it’s mostly because owners are trying to level the playing field and chefs see little reason to do all the work and take home 1/2 of what servers make.

You could raise prices by 15%, but it’s not commensurate to a 15% raise. On a Saturday night, I’ve seen servers clear $800 during a shift. I don’t think many places can afford to pay chefs $100/hr. That leads to the question of when tipped income is so variable, how do you decide what a fair rate is if you try to pay a similar amount via wages rather than sales percentage?

 

[mengwong]

Living in a country run by economists, I don't have a problem with a tipping screen on checkout. if I set it to 0%, and others don't, then they've just effectively subsidized my purchase. So why not?

 

[Ochazuke]

Living in a country run by economists, I don't have a problem with a tipping screen on checkout. if I set it to 0%, and others don't, then they've just effectively subsidized my purchase. So why not?

I feel like this is the least good answer to a crappy situation. Tipped employees are genetically paid less than minimum wage. In MA minimum wage is $15, but tipped employees’ minimum wage is $6.75. In MA, it’s required for restaurants to make up the difference if tips don’t bring the employee to an average of $15/hr for their shift, but they that is NOT the case for other states.

Where I grew up in a rural area, many tipped employees were living well below the poverty line. If you live in the US, I sincerely hope your answer was made out of ignorance of this. Otherwise, it’s less “intelligent” and more sociopathic.

 

[blokey]

I feel like Cal’s way of paying actual minimum wage while allowing some tipping is probably the way to go. Tho I have to say I do feel bit unpleasant the minimum tip option in some Cal restaurants are 18%. (Another way like reisen said is mandatory service fee, which is common in a lot of countries)

 

[mengwong]

I’m not talking about the restaurant scenario, I’m talking about the Bernal checkout flow from the original post.

Restaurants are different, definitely

 

[user 16756]

I feel like this is the least good answer to a crappy situation. Tipped employees are genetically paid less than minimum wage. In MA minimum wage is $15, but tipped employees’ minimum wage is $6.75. In MA, it’s required for restaurants to make up the difference if tips don’t bring the employee to an average of $15/hr for their shift, but they that is NOT the case for other states.

Where I grew up in a rural area, many tipped employees were living well below the poverty line. If you live in the US, I sincerely hope your answer was made out of ignorance of this. Otherwise, it’s less “intelligent” and more sociopathic.

is it not safe to assume he lives where his location is set too?

that said, I would love for our state to make a change and not exempt people from min wage. not sure the MA situation but that should also include disabled folks, children, prisoners, etc.