Kramer vs. Kramer vs. Kramer

[Andrew H]

Considering they are made in Japan, there are a lot of $400 Japanese knives I'd rather have over a ZKramer any day. Suisin IH, Takeda, Martell reworked Hiro AS, Gengetsu, to name a few.

I have no idea what you are paying for with the ZK. A shiny choil maybe?

Many would argue that 52100 is a better steel than AS or white, for one.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Well, you need to take into account who made this post. Definitely not someone that seems to like Henckels and even with a professional reason to dislike them.

bull$hit.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

I believe he was referring to Eamon and while I'm not sure Eamon hates on them just because they are made by Henckels, he does rant about them fairly often.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Considering they are made in Japan, there are a lot of $400 Japanese knives I'd rather have over a ZKramer any day. Suisin IH, Takeda, Martell reworked Hiro AS, Gengetsu, to name a few.

I have no idea what you are paying for with the ZK. A shiny choil maybe?

Well, the name for one. And the choil doesn't stay shiny since it's carbon, but the spine and choil are both polished and quite comfy.

While the ZKramer is in the price range of those other knives, and a direct competitor in our world, the ZK's competition are Shuns, Wustofs, Globals and other knives you can buy by walking into W&S and SLT. In that light, they don't look as bad as comparing them to a Gengetsu.

IMO DT ITK out performs the ZK hands down.

I would say my ZK is a slightly better cutter than my older (and thicker) ITK, but my newer (and way thinner) DT Spicy White and any of the newer ones I have used are MUCH better cutters.

 

[Eamon Burke]

Seriously? Who thinks that AS will just fail them and 52100 will save the day? The difference between these steels when properly heat treated is so damn minute.

Its not worth a poor grind and inverted handle.

 

[Eamon Burke]

Fwiw, I would have loved to see a good knife in slt.

There is so much room for knives in the modern world that there is no competition. The best thing for everyone is everyone's success.

I truly believe there is a higher performance in hand made knives, and the Japanese will do that for the same money.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Seriously? Who thinks that AS will just fail them and 52100 will save the day? The difference between these steels when properly heat treated is so damn minute.

Its not worth a poor grind and inverted handle.

Haha, yet, we still argue over the minute differences of these steels.

None I have seen had a poor grind and while the handle noses down slightly at the end, when on the board it still is angled up. Not like those bowie-turned-chef knives you see.

 

[Eamon Burke]

True, it is good that we literally split hairs...but we should be careful of declaring steels "better" when we all know how subjective it is. Many, as in perhaps a majority of people in the country the ZK is made in, consider AS to be the best blade steel in the world, and it is a pretty badass steel. 52100 is good too. My personal favorite is W2. We all have our style. But I have seen some really impressive cutters, made to be maintained, and great QC for $400. I have a ZK right now actually from a customer. It's no Farberware but it's also not God's Gift to Cutlery. I just don't think the steel, or the grind quality is worth $400. It's comparable to the ******** Series, which is greater variety, made Stateside, and half the price. So where's the other $150? I mean, most customers at SLT have no idea who Bob Kramer is until they are told.

I don't have on Henckels as much as I do on Wusthof--the real kings of overpriced garbage knives. Henckels seems interested in meeting demand first and foremost. Wusthof seems interested in making a buck first and foremost.

 

[JohnnyChance]

So where's the other $150?

SLT itself. You can't give out 40% employee discounts if your employees are going to make you broke. They still make money at that price. They run higher profit margins than online places because they have to and they can get away with it.

 

[Andrew H]

True, it is good that we literally split hairs...but we should be careful of declaring steels "better" when we all know how subjective it is. Many, as in perhaps a majority of people in the country the ZK is made in, consider AS to be the best blade steel in the world, and it is a pretty badass steel. 52100 is good too. My personal favorite is W2. We all have our style. But I have seen some really impressive cutters, made to be maintained, and great QC for $400. I have a ZK right now actually from a customer. It's no Farberware but it's also not God's Gift to Cutlery. I just don't think the steel, or the grind quality is worth $400. It's comparable to the ******** Series, which is greater variety, made Stateside, and half the price. So where's the other $150? I mean, most customers at SLT have no idea who Bob Kramer is until they are told.

I don't have on Henckels as much as I do on Wusthof--the real kings of overpriced garbage knives. Henckels seems interested in meeting demand first and foremost. Wusthof seems interested in making a buck first and foremost.

I did put this in before my statement: "Many people would argue." Marko has multiple times and I believe Larrin has talked about it also. I don't think it's worth $400, especially when compared to Gengetsu or a custom which could be close to that price, but I do think that it's a better value at $400 than a Shun Ken Onion at $250.

 

[jaybett]

....I have seen some really impressive cutters, made to be maintained, and great QC for $400.

Please name them. I'd be willing to bet though, that there would be disagreement with your choices.

I have a ZK right now actually from a customer. It's no Farberware but it's also not God's Gift to Cutlery. I just don't think the steel, or the grind quality is worth $400. It's comparable to the ******** Series, which is greater variety, made Stateside, and half the price. So where's the other $150? I mean, most customers at SLT have no idea who Bob Kramer is until they are told.

Anybody who shops at SLT is probably fairly serious about cooking. More then likely they have read or at least seen the blurb in Cook's Illustrated about Kramer knives. SLT took a chance that there would be enough people willing to pay for expensive kitchen knives. From what I've read, they have had success with the Kramer Zwilling line. If SLT has proven anything is that there is a place in the market for high end kitchen knives, which should be good news for us all.

I've always had a problem with the so called values argument. It is easy to throw out the line that a knife is not worth it price. It is much harder to say why a knife is worth its price.

I've purchased knives that were the favorites of the forum. When I got them, I couldn't see what the fuss was all about. Other knives, that are no longer popular on the forums, have worked out better then expected.

I appreciate the Kramer Zwilling more for what it is not. It is not another 240mm gyuto.

I don't have on Henckels as much as I do on Wusthof--the real kings of overpriced garbage knives. Henckels seems interested in meeting demand first and foremost. Wusthof seems interested in making a buck first and foremost.

And you base this statement on? What knife are you going to recommend to the people who don't want to deal with the hassles of owning a Japanese knife?

Jay

 

[bieniek]

I've purchased knives that were the favorites of the forum. When I got them, I couldn't see what the fuss was all about. Other knives, that are no longer popular on the forums, have worked out better then expected.

+1

 

[Eamon Burke]

And you base this statement on? What knife are you going to recommend to the people who don't want to deal with the hassles of owning a Japanese knife?

Day in, day out experience. I'm about to go to a Farmer's Market and have it proved to me all over again.

There are no hassles of owning a good knife. There are other reasons not to leave a knife filthy, drop it on the floor, bang it around in a drawer, or treat it like a mallet, none of which are "my knife is a delicate flower". A wusthof will not survive any of that either. They will rust as fast if left with half a lemon on them overnight, and when the tip hits the floor, it'll bend, which means it may not be broken now, but it sure might when you straighten it! I consider having to sharpen a knife 3x as much to be a hassle.

 

[NO ChoP!]

I still disagree with statements made about poor grind and fit and finish. Besides the exposed rivets, I haven't heard a single complaint from an owner of either topics...

Again, the grind on mine is literally flawless. The taper is gorgeous. The fit and finish is stunning. Just saying....

 

[NO ChoP!]

And coming from a guy who can hand peel a case of potatoes faster with a parer than most can with a peeler; the zkramer parer is the most comfortable and well constructed parer made, hands down. The Hattori KF may be a distant second.....

 

[karloevaristo]

i really don't understand the shape...

 

[Eamon Burke]

Funny coincidence. I got one to sharpen today, and got to fix a hole the guy finally admitted he almost returned the knife for.

#justsayin

 

[brainsausage]

Well, you need to take into account who made this post. Definitely not someone that seems to like Henckels and even with a professional reason to dislike them.

That's more than a little insulting. It's straight up B.S.

 

[tk59]

I've seen a few of the Zwilling Kramers and used one. They aren't my cup of tea but fit and finish is decent. Sharpenability is good. Edge retention is not terrible but probably the worst among 52100 blades I have used and they cut surprisingly well for the type of grind.

For what it's worth, I can see why knifefan made his comment toward Eamon and I think he has every right to point that out.

 

[brainsausage]

Looking back on it now- I may have misconstrued his 'professional' remark. And btw- I have no horse in this race. I've never handled a Kramer. The profile I've seen in pics of most of his knives turns me off, so I've mostly disregarded all the hub bub. But it seems to be popping up again lately. I don't really get why his custom stuff is as pricey as it is. I would gladly take one of the guys knives who hang around here over his based purely on geometry/aesthetics. I'm not sure if it's worth it in general just to have a persons name on your knife, when it doesn't perform/look any better than a knife half or a third of the price. Maybe I'm just speaking from a practical point of view, as I use all of my knives in a pro kitchen, but I still acknowledge and appreciate a nice Damascus style finish, rare wood handle, and pristine F/F. I just think you can get the same for a lot less. In regards to his factory stuff- again, I haven't touched them, but it still seems a little pricy considering the mass production aspect.

 

[Knifefan]

SLT itself. You can't give out 40% employee discounts if your employees are going to make you broke. They still make money at that price. They run higher profit margins than online places because they have to and they can get away with it.

When talking about value, you have to take into account 2 things:

1. how the knife is being distributed: sold through SLT / WS with all the related markups or direct imports sold through low margin online retailers. If directly imported *** knives sold online are considerably cheaper, you can say that you good a good deal, but not that a knife that is more expensive just because it goes through regular distribution is a poor value.

2. the design / features / specs of a knife. The ZK has a tapered tang, fully tapered blade, mirror polished choil, spine and tang, brass bolster, wooden handle, mosaic pin etc. With just a bit of engineering / production knowledge, you should know how expensive it must be to produce.

Can you get knives with similar or even better performance at cheaper prices than the ZK, like the AS? Yes. Can you get a knife with similar specs cheaper through any other brick and mortar retailer? No. So why then is the ZK a poor value and 'too expensive'?

 

[bieniek]

Excellent post Knifefan, very well written.

 

[marc4pt0]

Anybody else buy one of his Meiji SG2 Knives? Love to hear your feedback. Admittedly, it is a little wonky looking, but does that butch harner heel and nice hight.[/QUOTE]


I actually have the 8" chef, and Bread knife from the Meiji Line. Got them both for a song 'n dance off ebay. IMO both are great cutters, Love the larger belly on the chef knife, but even more so the handles are amongst my favorite I've ever worked with. They're not bad knives at all, but that said, I'm glad I didn't pay full price for these WS spin offs.

As for the ZKramers, I currently have the 8" Chefs anf the 9" slicer. The slicer is my go to knife at work. It is the perfect thinness and has just the right amount of flex in blade that makes it a great multi-tasker for me. Also, the fact that Zwilling actually went through and actually Rounded the spine and bolster on this line says a lot on their commitment on quality. But, on both of the ZK knives, the handle woods have shrunken a bit. They just didn't come "smooth" around the edges or pins, which for the price you'd think they'd be perfect.

Of course, the ZK 52100 take a great edge and hold it through some serious prep/line cooking. And finally, they make for a great canvass to force patina on. Wish I could post some pics to show.

And as a side note, the latest knife that was auctioned on Kramer's website ended up selling for $31,100. That's correct. auction ended friday I believe. My staf and I had a kick w/ this one..

 

[Eamon Burke]

I'm flattered some of you guys think I am in competition with Zwilling Henckels. Really, I'm touched. :O




The thing is, I have as much personally invested in this as anyone here--in fact, much less, considered I don't own one. So what's up with everyone getting a burr in their butt about it? I mean, it's not up for debate, I've seen about a dozen at this point, and they all had over/under ground spots about he width of a dime on them at some point or another, touching the edge. They needed fixing.

The steel was good. Sharpens nice. And yes, there are other features of the knife. But when I make a list of what makes a knife, the grind quality is far and away #1. Second is heat treat. Third is profile. Polished choils, wood handles, and availability at Sur La Table are all pretty damn close to the bottom.

I just don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife. A human being can be employed to effectively make that knife, and adjusting to create a quality grind is free for people and horrendously expensive for knife robots. The reason factories don't do that is because they don't want to invest in the people--robots don't take breaks or change jobs--it's got nothing to do with the quality of the product.


I mean, these are the same price as Marko's knives.

 

[jaybett]

I'm flattered some of you guys think I am in competition with Zwilling Henckels. Really, I'm touched. :O




The thing is, I have as much personally invested in this as anyone here--in fact, much less, considered I don't own one. So what's up with everyone getting a burr in their butt about it? I mean, it's not up for debate, I've seen about a dozen at this point, and they all had over/under ground spots about he width of a dime on them at some point or another, touching the edge. They needed fixing.

The steel was good. Sharpens nice. And yes, there are other features of the knife. But when I make a list of what makes a knife, the grind quality is far and away #1. Second is heat treat. Third is profile. Polished choils, wood handles, and availability at Sur La Table are all pretty damn close to the bottom.

I just don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife. A human being can be employed to effectively make that knife, and adjusting to create a quality grind is free for people and horrendously expensive for knife robots. The reason factories don't do that is because they don't want to invest in the people--robots don't take breaks or change jobs--it's got nothing to do with the quality of the product.


I mean, these are the same price as Marko's knives.

The problem is you keep changing your argument.

When it is pointed out, that you have made some strong statements against Henkels, your reply is there not that bad, the maker that is really poor is Wustoff.

Your issue with the Zwilling Kramer is that the ones you have seen contain over/under ground spots. Nobody doubts what you have seen, but other forum members have including myself, have not seen those issues on their knives. A plausible explanation would be a bad batch got out of the factory, instead of a problem endemic to the whole line.

One of the keys, when I make a purchase is what will the company do after a purchase is made? Who has a more generous return policy then SLT? The forum member who worked directly with Zwilling shared how they went out of there way to make the situation right.

You don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife, but you have no problem buying something from the Addict line?

When asked how is the knife over valued you have been unable so far to provide specifics.

Jay

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

When talking about value, you have to take into account 2 things:

1. how the knife is being distributed: sold through SLT / WS with all the related markups or direct imports sold through low margin online retailers. If directly imported *** knives sold online are considerably cheaper, you can say that you good a good deal, but not that a knife that is more expensive just because it goes through regular distribution is a poor value.

2. the design / features / specs of a knife. The ZK has a tapered tang, fully tapered blade, mirror polished choil, spine and tang, brass bolster, wooden handle, mosaic pin etc. With just a bit of engineering / production knowledge, you should know how expensive it must be to produce.

Can you get knives with similar or even better performance at cheaper prices than the ZK, like the AS? Yes. Can you get a knife with similar specs cheaper through any other brick and mortar retailer? No. So why then is the ZK a poor value and 'too expensive'?

My western will feature similar bolsters to ZK, so I am getting familiar with the construction and here are my thoughts on it. This is an easier bolster construction than a welded bolsters featured on many Japanese production knives. I would guess all components for ZK are laser cut and CNC milled so fit is perfect and no guess-work involved, just assembly. You slide in a bolster till it locks into a notch, put a pin through and peen it. The scales are held by two corby bolts and a mozaic pin. Handle is shaped by hand (at least in the final stages), but it's a pretty simple shape (unlike a Coca Cola shape), so a skilled worker won't spend much time on it. So to say that this handle is much more complex and require more production that say Hattory FH is an exaggeration.

Let me comment on grind and finish too. Grind is partially flat (I guess more than 1/3 from spine down) and then convex to the edge. A relatively simple grind to do, on a automated grinder with a final steps done by hand. Knife is ground to 0.015 or so on the edge.

Finish is a vertical scratches belt finish, probably in the area of 200 grit, similar to Masamoto. Because the knife is very tall, the grind transition toward convex doesn't always result in a plunge line, though I seen one sloppily done (on one side and not the other).

Heat treatment on that knife (heard directly from users) is adequate, but nothing special. It will hold a decent edge for 2 weeks in a pro kitchen with stropping.

None of the above point to a production that would be different than that of Lamson.

As to whether it is worth money or not, you arrive at your own conclusion, but the brand name has something do do with it.

My personal opinion (based on my personal preferences, make a note of that!) - this knife could be made better with some changes.

M

 

[JohnnyChance]

Your issue with the Zwilling Kramer is that the ones you have seen contain over/under ground spots. Nobody doubts what you have seen, but other forum members have including myself, have not seen those issues on their knives. A plausible explanation would be a bad batch got out of the factory, instead of a problem endemic to the whole line.

You don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife, but you have no problem buying something from the Addict line?

I'm a god damn American and I support American robots

I'd question it. NOBODY else has seen any grind issues but every single one eamon has seen has them? I mean I've heard tale of his legendary eyesight, but c'mon.

 

[marc4pt0]

I'd also like to add that when I purchased the 8" ZK chef knife, the SLT by me had it mispriced at $299, so that plus the pro discount program they offer is what made my decision to get it. Still no regrets on the purchase, and I really like the feel of it. As for over/under grind, neither one of mine show any signs.

To Marko, i'm looking forward to seeing your Western style knives!

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I'm a god damn American and I support American robots

...

Isn't ZK German-owned and Japanese-made (presumably using German grinding robots - they are known for them: Kuka, Berger among others, even Lamson uses them, or Japanese robots)?

Most of 52100 steel comes from Germany these days, so a good chance it is made of a German steel.

There is a reason why it is called Zwilling Kramer, not Kramer production knives (designed in US, but made overseas).

 

[GlassEye]

I'd question it. NOBODY else has seen any grind issues but every single one eamon has seen has them? I mean I've heard tale of his legendary eyesight, but c'mon.

I am quite certain I have heard of enough grind issues, to have thought it was an occurrence more common than it should be. Eamon was never involved where I have seen these issues reported.

 

[JohnnyChance]

I am quite certain I have heard of enough grind issues, to have thought it was an occurrence more common than it should be. Eamon was never involved where I have seen these issues reported.

I had not seen any grind issues with the ZKs reported before.