Kramer vs. Kramer vs. Kramer

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I'm flattered some of you guys think I am in competition with Zwilling Henckels. Really, I'm touched. :O




The thing is, I have as much personally invested in this as anyone here--in fact, much less, considered I don't own one. So what's up with everyone getting a burr in their butt about it? I mean, it's not up for debate, I've seen about a dozen at this point, and they all had over/under ground spots about he width of a dime on them at some point or another, touching the edge. They needed fixing.

The steel was good. Sharpens nice. And yes, there are other features of the knife. But when I make a list of what makes a knife, the grind quality is far and away #1. Second is heat treat. Third is profile. Polished choils, wood handles, and availability at Sur La Table are all pretty damn close to the bottom.

I just don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife. A human being can be employed to effectively make that knife, and adjusting to create a quality grind is free for people and horrendously expensive for knife robots. The reason factories don't do that is because they don't want to invest in the people--robots don't take breaks or change jobs--it's got nothing to do with the quality of the product.


I mean, these are the same price as Marko's knives.

I don't see where anyone alluded to you being competition for Henckels.

Yes, for you personally a ZK is not a fit. Other people have different expectations and requirements in a knife. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Hell if I sharpened for a living I would much rather see one of these coming through my door than a wustof or the like.
 
Isn't ZK German-owned and Japanese-made (presumably using German grinding robots - they are known for them: Kuka, Berger among others, even Lamson uses them, or Japanese robots)?

AFAIK Zwilling bought an entire knife production plant in Japan some years ago. What would be the point of doing this if they change the whole production to their German routine?
 
AFAIK Zwilling bought an entire knife production plant in Japan some years ago. What would be the point of doing this if they change the whole production to their German routine?

There is a difference in German and Japanese knife production methods, the latter being more labor intensive in finishing stages.

Japanese production results in thinner at the edge blades and/or a little more hand-made feel. To train workers to grind thin at the edge by hand, after decades of fully automated German production line, is not a small task - easier buy Japanese company, add some newer equipment like laser cutting and CNC, and got yourself best of the two worlds, with a little hype (made in Japan by descendants of sword makers) as a bonus. I am sure other factors (exchange rate, access to Japanese market for Henckels brand, etc. played a role as well).

Makes perfect sense to me.

M

PS: I think the point I am trying to make here, let's take emotions out of it and judge a knife on its merit or shortcomings. If the praise or criticism are well earned, there is little else to argue about.

It would help if people could back up some of their arguments or claims with some more concrete facts or evidence, otherwise it is all opinions.
 
About all I've seen/know about robot made/finished blades comes from the few videos that pop up here now and then, and Discovery channel...In your opinion are the ZK blades robot made or finished? and if they are how does a robot end up with over/under grinds, especially if they are in different locations on the blade?

Somewhat related, is an over/undergrind different from an inconsistent bevel? Is it a matter of degree?

..... I've seen about a dozen at this point, and they all had over/under ground spots about he width of a dime on them at some point ....

I just don't want to pay $400 for a factory-robot made knife.
 
....In your opinion are the ZK blades robot made or finished? and if they are how does a robot end up with over/under grinds, especially if they are in different locations on the blade?

...

The final grind and finish is likely done by hand.
 
I was kidding, just about the "professional reason" to dislike Henckels. Henckels makes knives because that is what people buy--if people stop buying knives altogether in lieu of food processors, they'd start making those. My issue with Wusthof is their misinformation tactics that they employ at cooking schools, retail outlets, etc. And their knives are really bad. I see no difference between a $80 Wusthof and its $15 knock off in practice. I have no reason to be biased about this stuff, I, as of yet, have not made entire knives for sale.

Regarding the actual issue at hand, here's what I'm talking about. This is a ZK I got from someone who is not on these forums(just a guy wanting a sheath), I have not touched this knife with the stones, yet. This is the heel on one side:
2012-07-29%252013.55.57.jpg

And this is the other, clearly mismatched.
2012-07-29%252013.56.50.jpg

And you can also see from the reflection of the straight window panes on the blade that the grind is low in one spot. That proceeds all the way to the edge, and is not matched on the other side.

Here's an Addict, which I have taken to the stones, for just a second, before I noticed the issue with the heel, at which point I set it down to deal with later.
2012-07-29%252013.57.41.jpg

The heel on the other side:
2012-07-29%252013.58.10.jpg


The grinds are also oriented on both to match the centerline of the blade, because it is easier to get the machines to make knives in straight passes, and having a machine that can follow the profile of a knife when grinding would be outlandishly expensive, or else require many more passes on the machine to create(and every pass adds a significant amount of money to the price of the knife). I have spoken directly to the Lamson folks about this, and I did not get a clear answer as to why the machines have so much trouble creating consistent grinds, other than that the machines are not meant to grind at tolerances that low, and start to act wonky. They were designed, after all, during the era when the Wusthof and Henckels and Chicago Cutlery and Ginsu were filling everyone's homes with useless disposable plates of steel. It is just the way the machines are made. I cannot say about the ZKs, but Lamson does not finish grinding by hand.

The point I was making is, these are not handmade knives. A human does not require more compensation every time they take an extra step at work, or for bending their elbow. It is ok to use a not-handmade knife. I use them often. But I don't see why people would want to pay handmade prices and get factory performance. And by performance, I don't just mean cutting or HT, but also maintenance, and the ability to be used up over your life and continue working while doing so. One of the reasons I like my handmade knives is because they are a breeze to sharpen--I spend just a few minutes and the knife is in tip top shape again, and I don't have to worry about enlarging a hole, making sure to out-size an overgrind on a dead flat stone, or compensating for inverted thickness behind the tip, all things that you deal from factory knives with lower QC.

A good example of a company that is kicking ass at making factory knives with excellent QC is Suisin. I have not seen any untouched Suisin knife that I can recall with any performance related defects, and the prices are all comparable to these other ones. Changing the profile, shape, etc is just a matter of style, that could be done without changing QC, design, or process. It seems that rather than make a knife at $400 with a simpler handle and less marketing hype, they would rather make a sexy knife and sacrifice in the department of being a reliably awesome cutting implement. The comparison to the Addict was because the Addict is a similarly made knife, but less makeup, and less than half the price. That is their purpose, to get a knife is crazy blade steels with attributes of a nice knife for a price that is within reach for regular people. If they wanted to, they could fix the grind issues by taking their time and making more passes...but then the knife would be...well, maybe $400. Which brings us back to the ZK.

As far as the return policy, I have a direct analogy to that in the world of folders. I bought a really great folder a while back that was made by Buck, had a great flipper design, nice profile, solid lockup, pretty scales in premium materials, and high performance heat treat of a powder metal steel. The Buck Vantage Pro. The problem is, most of them have issues with grazing the liners when they close, which can really damage a folder in use. So you might have to return a few, or look at a bunch, which is what I did--out of 8 that Outdoor World had, 6 had a serious problem. It was also under $70, which is remarkable for what you are getting, because, just like when you do finishing work on a Japanese knife to sand a spine or round off a handle, they are passing on a job to YOU--but instead of finishing, it's quality control.

I guess you are paying $250 extra because Sur La Table is fun and the bubbly handle floats your boat. I just think it could be a lot better in the area of being a cutting tool, given the price.
:2cents:
 
Assuming the bevels were cut perfectly (which they probably aren't), I'd much rather have the first blade than the second. Whether it's $250 better or not, I can't say. The Zwilling Kramer I have here has minor variations in the grind all along the length of the blade but the bevels are not very wavy at all.
 
...The point I was making is, these are not handmade knives...But I don't see why people would want to pay handmade prices and get factory performance. And by performance, I don't just mean cutting or HT, but also maintenance, and the ability to be used up over your life and continue working while doing so. One of the reasons I like my handmade knives is because they are a breeze to sharpen--I spend just a few minutes and the knife is in tip top shape again, and I don't have to worry about enlarging a hole, making sure to out-size an overgrind on a dead flat stone, or compensating for inverted thickness behind the tip, all things that you deal from factory knives with lower QC.area of being a cutting tool, given the price...
This is crap. Handmade does not equal performance, superior QC, etc. Furthermore, ease of sharpening is 100% dependent on HT and steel, not hand-anything. I can't think of a machine made knife that took me more than a couple min to sharpen unless it had been abused.
 
I was kidding, just about the "professional reason" to dislike Henckels. Henckels makes knives because that is what people buy--if people stop buying knives altogether in lieu of food processors, they'd start making those. My issue with Wusthof is their misinformation tactics that they employ at cooking schools, retail outlets, etc. And their knives are really bad. I see no difference between a $80 Wusthof and its $15 knock off in practice. I have no reason to be biased about this stuff, I, as of yet, have not made entire knives for sale.

Regarding the actual issue at hand, here's what I'm talking about. This is a ZK I got from someone who is not on these forums(just a guy wanting a sheath), I have not touched this knife with the stones, yet. This is the heel on one side:
2012-07-29%252013.55.57.jpg

And this is the other, clearly mismatched.
2012-07-29%252013.56.50.jpg

And you can also see from the reflection of the straight window panes on the blade that the grind is low in one spot. That proceeds all the way to the edge, and is not matched on the other side.

Here's an Addict, which I have taken to the stones, for just a second, before I noticed the issue with the heel, at which point I set it down to deal with later.
2012-07-29%252013.57.41.jpg

The heel on the other side:
2012-07-29%252013.58.10.jpg


The grinds are also oriented on both to match the centerline of the blade, because it is easier to get the machines to make knives in straight passes, and having a machine that can follow the profile of a knife when grinding would be outlandishly expensive, or else require many more passes on the machine to create(and every pass adds a significant amount of money to the price of the knife). I have spoken directly to the Lamson folks about this, and I did not get a clear answer as to why the machines have so much trouble creating consistent grinds, other than that the machines are not meant to grind at tolerances that low, and start to act wonky. They were designed, after all, during the era when the Wusthof and Henckels and Chicago Cutlery and Ginsu were filling everyone's homes with useless disposable plates of steel. It is just the way the machines are made. I cannot say about the ZKs, but Lamson does not finish grinding by hand.

The point I was making is, these are not handmade knives. A human does not require more compensation every time they take an extra step at work, or for bending their elbow. It is ok to use a not-handmade knife. I use them often. But I don't see why people would want to pay handmade prices and get factory performance. And by performance, I don't just mean cutting or HT, but also maintenance, and the ability to be used up over your life and continue working while doing so. One of the reasons I like my handmade knives is because they are a breeze to sharpen--I spend just a few minutes and the knife is in tip top shape again, and I don't have to worry about enlarging a hole, making sure to out-size an overgrind on a dead flat stone, or compensating for inverted thickness behind the tip, all things that you deal from factory knives with lower QC.

A good example of a company that is kicking ass at making factory knives with excellent QC is Suisin. I have not seen any untouched Suisin knife that I can recall with any performance related defects, and the prices are all comparable to these other ones. Changing the profile, shape, etc is just a matter of style, that could be done without changing QC, design, or process. It seems that rather than make a knife at $400 with a simpler handle and less marketing hype, they would rather make a sexy knife and sacrifice in the department of being a reliably awesome cutting implement. The comparison to the Addict was because the Addict is a similarly made knife, but less makeup, and less than half the price. That is their purpose, to get a knife is crazy blade steels with attributes of a nice knife for a price that is within reach for regular people. If they wanted to, they could fix the grind issues by taking their time and making more passes...but then the knife would be...well, maybe $400. Which brings us back to the ZK.

As far as the return policy, I have a direct analogy to that in the world of folders. I bought a really great folder a while back that was made by Buck, had a great flipper design, nice profile, solid lockup, pretty scales in premium materials, and high performance heat treat of a powder metal steel. The Buck Vantage Pro. The problem is, most of them have issues with grazing the liners when they close, which can really damage a folder in use. So you might have to return a few, or look at a bunch, which is what I did--out of 8 that Outdoor World had, 6 had a serious problem. It was also under $70, which is remarkable for what you are getting, because, just like when you do finishing work on a Japanese knife to sand a spine or round off a handle, they are passing on a job to YOU--but instead of finishing, it's quality control.

I guess you are paying $250 extra because Sur La Table is fun and the bubbly handle floats your boat. I just think it could be a lot better in the area of being a cutting tool, given the price.
:2cents:

you know its funny but i've seen a lot of factory made blades lately with horrible high and low spots (more lately than ever before). I've seen shun (of almost all types), miyabi, the factory kramers being discussed here, sakai takayuki, tojiro, etc with all kinds of high and low spots (and some with bad overgrinds... like the tojiro dp i sharpened yesterday). I'm not at all surprised by your findings.
 
I don't know I think I am starting to not like the Kool aid that is coming from him. The knife on this auction (to me) was meh. Loved the colors on the handle. Only 1 shot of the knife so you couldn't see the end cap pattern which was damascus. I could also be becoming jaded with other knives.

knifeleftLGt.jpg

I like mattrud's knife still, but for me this one was over about 29k$
 
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This is crap. Handmade does not equal performance, superior QC, etc. Furthermore, ease of sharpening is 100% dependent on HT and steel, not hand-anything. I can't think of a machine made knife that took me more than a couple min to sharpen unless it had been abused.

Is ease of sharpening 100% based on that? There is no connection between quality of grind and ease of sharpening? I find this hard to believe tk. Eamon's point is that a machine can never finally do what a craftsman can with his hands and lots of time. Thus the prices these knives cost does not equate with the quality of the finished product. I think the Kramer zwillings are a waste of money even though I have never ever handled one based solely on the fact that for just a little more money (or in some cases the same amount) you can buy a knife made by a quantifiable known entity who makes kitchen knives based upon imperial research to improve cutting performance without the specter of marketing sub par products for lots of money elsewhere in their stock portfolio.
 
Is ease of sharpening 100% based on that? There is no connection between quality of grind and ease of sharpening? I find this hard to believe tk. Eamon's point is that a machine can never finally do what a craftsman can with his hands and lots of time. Thus the prices these knives cost does not equate with the quality of the finished product. I think the Kramer zwillings are a waste of money even though I have never ever handled one based solely on the fact that for just a little more money (or in some cases the same amount) you can buy a knife made by a quantifiable known entity who makes kitchen knives based upon imperial research to improve cutting performance without the specter of marketing sub par products for lots of money elsewhere in their stock portfolio.
There is absolutely no connection between grind and wear resistance and tendency to hold on to a wire edge, aka ease of sharpening. Those are intrinisic properties of the metal itself. Are the best knives handmade? Depending on your definition, I would say, generally yes. Are the worst knives machine made? That is also tough to say. I've seen plenty of hand made knives that are unfit for kitchen use.
 
I see the statement as meaning that a knife with grind issues is more difficult to sharpen because one would need to deal with the overgrind, hole, whatever it is, requiring more work in sharpening. The farther into the blade you get over time, the problems may become more of an issue, possibly affecting the longevity of the tool. This is how I interpreted his statement.
 
I see the statement as meaning that a knife with grind issues is more difficult to sharpen because one would need to deal with the overgrind, hole, whatever it is, requiring more work in sharpening. The farther into the blade you get over time, the problems may become more of an issue, possibly affecting the longevity of the tool. This is how I interpreted his statement.

Right. A knife without grind issues is easier to sharpen. But not all handmade knives are free of grind errors. To say all handmade knives are easier to sharpen implies they are all perfectly ground, which just isn't the case.
 
This is crap. Handmade does not equal performance, superior QC, etc. Furthermore, ease of sharpening is 100% dependent on HT and steel, not hand-anything. I can't think of a machine made knife that took me more than a couple min to sharpen unless it had been abused.

Knife%2520Quality%2520Venn.jpg
 
OMG, love the Venn diagram. It's all clear to me now. Thanks Eamon.
 
My western will feature similar bolsters to ZK, so I am getting familiar with the construction and here are my thoughts on it. This is an easier bolster construction than a welded bolsters featured on many Japanese production knives. I would guess all components for ZK are laser cut and CNC milled so fit is perfect and no guess-work involved, just assembly. You slide in a bolster till it locks into a notch, put a pin through and peen it. The scales are held by two corby bolts and a mozaic pin. Handle is shaped by hand (at least in the final stages), but it's a pretty simple shape (unlike a Coca Cola shape), so a skilled worker won't spend much time on it. So to say that this handle is much more complex and require more production that say Hattory FH is an exaggeration.

Let me comment on grind and finish too. Grind is partially flat (I guess more than 1/3 from spine down) and then convex to the edge. A relatively simple grind to do, on a automated grinder with a final steps done by hand. Knife is ground to 0.015 or so on the edge.

Finish is a vertical scratches belt finish, probably in the area of 200 grit, similar to Masamoto. Because the knife is very tall, the grind transition toward convex doesn't always result in a plunge line, though I seen one sloppily done (on one side and not the other).

Heat treatment on that knife (heard directly from users) is adequate, but nothing special. It will hold a decent edge for 2 weeks in a pro kitchen with stropping.

None of the above point to a production that would be different than that of Lamson.

As to whether it is worth money or not, you arrive at your own conclusion, but the brand name has something do do with it.

My personal opinion (based on my personal preferences, make a note of that!) - this knife could be made better with some changes.

M


So far we as ZWILLING have avoided posting on forums, but once knife makers start getting involved in discussions, we feel the urge to step in.

The target of the ZK line was to produce a replica of Bob Kramer's original straight carbon Euro line in a series production setting, with all features and materials to be identical to the original. That included:

- straight distal tapering of blade and tang
- brass bolster and rivets
- mosaic pin

The specs of the line dictated the production environment at our Japanese factory. Most of the machines used for the production of MIYABI couldn't be used. We had to build a new factory for this line. As we knew this would be a niche product with comparatively small production lots, automation made little sense, so that the ZK line is mostly handmade, no robots used.

The construction with an attached brass bolster is FAR more complex and difficult than a welded stainless tang / bolster, and the tapering adds to the complexity. Both the tang and blade have to be ground in order to get the tapering, and grinding (even on machines) never is a process with 100% precision. After grinding, you still need a flat surface for attaching the bolster, in order to avoid gaps. Both bolster and handle have to be glued on to the tang, since there must be absolutely no gaps between bolster, handle and tang.

As for the tang, additional to tapering, the tang of each knife is weight adjusted in order to get the balance to the exact points as specified by Bob Kramer.

Getting the gradual distal taper on the blade was another challenge, also considering that a LOT of metal needed to be removed off a hardened blade (> HRC 60), especially on the Chef's knives where we start with an original material thickness of 4 mm. On the 8" and 10" that meant several passes on grinding machines. Usually a Japanese Gyutoh is not made from 4 mm material and doesn't have a distal taper like the ZK. Definitely NOT just a simple grind...

Another issue is getting the brass bolster into its final shape. You can't use casting processes like with stainless steel. Thus you need to grind / mill the bolster into shape from a block of brass. Both ways are far more difficult / expensive than a cast stainless bolster.

The handle is far from easy to produce. It is fully rounded. This means 1st that you can't use simple flat head rivets. You need solid ones. 2nd you have no flat area along the rivets (unlike many other knives), which requires many additional steps in handle grinding. We agree the handle has a similar level of complexity in grinding than a Hattori FH, but this already is a very complex handle. Most handles on the market are A LOT easier to finish.

Another factor that is very time consuming in production is the rounding and mirror finishing of choil, tang and back of the blade. It's exponentially more expensive than a less rounded finish and considerably more expensive than a rounded satin finish.

We hope that that this post will contribute to creating an understanding (and maybe some appreciation for the fact) that this is not just another mass produced knife.

ZWILLING Japan
 
So far we as ZWILLING have avoided posting on forums, but once knife makers start getting involved in discussions, we feel the urge to step in.

The target of the ZK line was to produce a replica of Bob Kramer's original straight carbon Euro line in a series production setting, with all features and materials to be identical to the original. That included:

- straight distal tapering of blade and tang
- brass bolster and rivets
- mosaic pin

The specs of the line dictated the production environment at our Japanese factory. Most of the machines used for the production of MIYABI couldn't be used. We had to build a new factory for this line. As we knew this would be a niche product with comparatively small production lots, automation made little sense, so that the ZK line is mostly handmade, no robots used.

The construction with an attached brass bolster is FAR more complex and difficult than a welded stainless tang / bolster, and the tapering adds to the complexity. Both the tang and blade have to be ground in order to get the tapering, and grinding (even on machines) never is a process with 100% precision. After grinding, you still need a flat surface for attaching the bolster, in order to avoid gaps. Both bolster and handle have to be glued on to the tang, since there must be absolutely no gaps between bolster, handle and tang.

As for the tang, additional to tapering, the tang of each knife is weight adjusted in order to get the balance to the exact points as specified by Bob Kramer.

Getting the gradual distal taper on the blade was another challenge, also considering that a LOT of metal needed to be removed off a hardened blade (> HRC 60), especially on the Chef's knives where we start with an original material thickness of 4 mm. On the 8" and 10" that meant several passes on grinding machines. Usually a Japanese Gyutoh is not made from 4 mm material and doesn't have a distal taper like the ZK. Definitely NOT just a simple grind...

Another issue is getting the brass bolster into its final shape. You can't use casting processes like with stainless steel. Thus you need to grind / mill the bolster into shape from a block of brass. Both ways are far more difficult / expensive than a cast stainless bolster.

The handle is far from easy to produce. It is fully rounded. This means 1st that you can't use simple flat head rivets. You need solid ones. 2nd you have no flat area along the rivets (unlike many other knives), which requires many additional steps in handle grinding. We agree the handle has a similar level of complexity in grinding than a Hattori FH, but this already is a very complex handle. Most handles on the market are A LOT easier to finish.

Another factor that is very time consuming in production is the rounding and mirror finishing of choil, tang and back of the blade. It's exponentially more expensive than a less rounded finish and considerably more expensive than a rounded satin finish.

We hope that that this post will contribute to creating an understanding (and maybe some appreciation for the fact) that this is not just another mass produced knife.

ZWILLING Japan

Thank you for a detailed explanation. As long as most of heavy stock removal is done by machines, the remaining work done by hand makes sense (4mm to .5mm at the tip is a lot of metal to remove).

M
 
So far we as ZWILLING have avoided posting on forums, but once knife makers start getting involved in discussions, we feel the urge to step in.

The target of the ZK line was to produce a replica of Bob Kramer's original straight carbon Euro line in a series production setting, with all features and materials to be identical to the original. That included:

- straight distal tapering of blade and tang
- brass bolster and rivets
- mosaic pin

The specs of the line dictated the production environment at our Japanese factory. Most of the machines used for the production of MIYABI couldn't be used. We had to build a new factory for this line. As we knew this would be a niche product with comparatively small production lots, automation made little sense, so that the ZK line is mostly handmade, no robots used.

The construction with an attached brass bolster is FAR more complex and difficult than a welded stainless tang / bolster, and the tapering adds to the complexity. Both the tang and blade have to be ground in order to get the tapering, and grinding (even on machines) never is a process with 100% precision. After grinding, you still need a flat surface for attaching the bolster, in order to avoid gaps. Both bolster and handle have to be glued on to the tang, since there must be absolutely no gaps between bolster, handle and tang.

As for the tang, additional to tapering, the tang of each knife is weight adjusted in order to get the balance to the exact points as specified by Bob Kramer.

Getting the gradual distal taper on the blade was another challenge, also considering that a LOT of metal needed to be removed off a hardened blade (> HRC 60), especially on the Chef's knives where we start with an original material thickness of 4 mm. On the 8" and 10" that meant several passes on grinding machines. Usually a Japanese Gyutoh is not made from 4 mm material and doesn't have a distal taper like the ZK. Definitely NOT just a simple grind...

Another issue is getting the brass bolster into its final shape. You can't use casting processes like with stainless steel. Thus you need to grind / mill the bolster into shape from a block of brass. Both ways are far more difficult / expensive than a cast stainless bolster.

The handle is far from easy to produce. It is fully rounded. This means 1st that you can't use simple flat head rivets. You need solid ones. 2nd you have no flat area along the rivets (unlike many other knives), which requires many additional steps in handle grinding. We agree the handle has a similar level of complexity in grinding than a Hattori FH, but this already is a very complex handle. Most handles on the market are A LOT easier to finish.

Another factor that is very time consuming in production is the rounding and mirror finishing of choil, tang and back of the blade. It's exponentially more expensive than a less rounded finish and considerably more expensive than a rounded satin finish.

We hope that that this post will contribute to creating an understanding (and maybe some appreciation for the fact) that this is not just another mass produced knife.

ZWILLING Japan

Thank you for a detailed explanation and clarification of your production processes.

As long as most of heavy stock removal is done by machines, the remaining work done by hand makes sense (4mm to .5mm at the tip is a lot of metal to remove), thought is is still a pretty labor intensive process for a production knife. Kind of strange to see it coming from a company that invested heavily in automation in the past decades.

The reference to a simple grind had more to do with partially flat/partially convex grind, then overall grind (distal taper, tapered tang etc). I guess it is a forum lingo that gives a snapshot on a knife's performance. With exception of few grinds (and some are not applicable for Western knives), most are simple grinds.

If a bulk of operations is done by hand as I understood from your post (grinding, milling, cutting slots in the brass, fitting, peening) and not on CNC, I tip my hat to you, as I have discovered myself, it is quite a bit of work. In this case, my comparing your production to that of Lamson was not justified, and I take it back.

M
 
Ty for your response, I had put these knives on the back of the list. But, now they have moved up quite a bit.

Oh ya and Welcome!!
 
I find it interesting that Zwilling felt compelled to respond to this forum.

I wonder if then the ZK is more manually constructed than previously thought, but is then susceptible to those kind of issues of fit and finish that some Japanese hand-made knives are prone to (cf. Moritaka)? In other words, is the design being executed in a pretty fair but not exceptional manner?
 
That was pretty awesome... It's a rarity, and I welcome the presence.

I think many of the knuts around here put raw performance first. They would put their $400 towards a simple ho handled blade with stellar performance; Watanabe, Yoshikane, Shig, etc...

Now, if you want that kind of performance in the blade, PLUS a fancy handle with brass bolster, exotic wood, mosaic pins, highly polished blade areas, taper, etc... you would pay closer to $1000 or more... (or $30k for a real Kramer)

I think the ZKramer is a poor mans full custom; and that was exactly what it is intended to be.
 
Hey, maybe if we have Zwilling presence we should throw some stuff at them...

...are you ever going to do a Zwilling version of the Meiji Kramer line?

...are you going to ever do anything with ZDP-189 steel again (or other PM steels)? The Twin Cermax was an exceptional value...

...do you have any other projects that are geared towards knife enthusiasts?

...any other projects with known knife makers? (there are a few around these parts; hint, hint)


And, I'll finish with my own project idea. Vintage Henckel and Sabatier have become quite the rage around here. It is the lesser belly and carbon steel that are enticing. Would you consider doing a pure carbon Zwilling, classic profiled, plain and simple, homage to yesteryears, line?
 
chop I don't think Zwilling will do another lines classic (henckel and sab.) style. I could see working with some others here. But with as much work the put into Kramers line a BB would be right up there with his work. So I wouldn't think so. Love the idea's though.
 
And, I'll finish with my own project idea. Vintage Henckel and Sabatier have become quite the rage around here. It is the lesser belly and carbon steel that are enticing. Would you consider doing a pure carbon Zwilling, classic profiled, plain and simple, homage to yesteryears, line?

+1

and thanks for stopping by to add to the discussion
 
On the 8" and 10" that meant several passes on grinding machines. Usually a Japanese Gyutoh is not made from 4 mm material and doesn't have a distal taper like the ZK. Definitely NOT just a simple grind...

Thanks for jumping in here, because I would really like to understand this one point better.

This is a grinding machine:
[video=youtube;QC9g3CObDcs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC9g3CObDcs[/video]
That is what I was referring to as a robot. If there isn't a person holding the knife and checking it, the grind seems to suffer. Why is it that a machine, which does not make mistakes like people do, cannot put a level grind on a knife that is appropriately thin? It just seems crazy to me that a grinding machine would put out a grind that one would expect from an amateur knife maker.

Here is a knife NOT being made by a robot:
[video=youtube;Dym61BvH5rA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dym61BvH5rA&feature=player_embedded[/video]
And yet these knives are way better ground and set in the same price range, with WAY lower distributorship. What gives?
 
We've seen more than a few business entities show up on this forum and most all of them use company server email accounts for obvious reasons. The member "ZWILLING" is using a gmail account, the IP address appears to be located in Germany.

Maybe they will supply a name and contact information to validate their identity?
 
It'd be nice to have someone to talk to that's in the know. They've got to know that more and more people don't just want to hear foreign words and metallurgical BS.

From what little I've managed to see of the nitty gritty on the factory floor for these kinds of production knives, it's an engineering marvel, but this one area seems a consistent disappointment to me. Why can Tojiro make a San-Mai western integral that retails for $80, and yet nobody has a machine that can grind like Pierre Rodrigue?
 
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