Kramer vs. Kramer vs. Kramer

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Because if they can manage to figure out that massive conundrum, why can't they put their heads to the more important issue?

Why have they solved so many cutlery production problems with brilliant solutions, but skipped the most important one?

You must remember, at one point, no knives were made by machines. They were handmade by necessity. So when they started making machines to replace the men, they had to replicate or re-invent what it takes to create the product people want. So "how can we get a machine to shape a bolster cheaper and more reliably than a person?" is a question that got addressed. Look at how Damasteel is made--it's mind blowing that anyone figured that out, and just to have pretty knives. Well, where's the grind? Why is it that people are out-machining robots?
 
Well, I feel like I've been pretty clear, and haven't done much other than raise legitimate issues I see every day, and still have yet to get an answer for.

However, it has been brought to my attention that people are a lot more emotionally invested in this thing, and I might be upsetting some of you somehow. Also it seems I am not being understood in the least.

I realize this is my deficiency and not anyone else's. I'm not capable of gauging this kind of thing, and don't have much of an outlet for my thoughts as a result.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
 
BurkeCutlery said:
Well, I feel like I've been pretty clear, and haven't done much other than raise legitimate issues I see every day, and still have yet to get an answer for.

However, it has been brought to my attention that people are a lot more emotionally invested in this thing, and I might be upsetting some of you somehow. Also it seems I am not being understood in the least.

I realize this is my deficiency and not anyone else's. I'm not capable of gauging this kind of thing, and don't have much of an outlet for my thoughts as a result.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Let us recap....

One of your early posts was that the only reason you could see people picking up a KZ was that the choil was shiny. How were owners of KZ suppose to respond to that?

Then you declared that you would rather have a knife by Takeda and Hiromoto instead of a KZ. Takeda while being an excellent knife, has all sorts of issues. Hiromoto AS is a thicker knife, that isn't known for being a great cutter.

Next you tried the values argument, that there were better deals then the KZ. Curiously you never mentioned one.

The issue of the knife being made with robots, was brought up. Somehow it was okay for the Addict series, but not the KZ. The post made by Zwilling seems to imply that they don't use robots in the production.

Then the over/under grind of issue of the ZK. Not much of an argument, since all knives, even ones from high end makers suffer from this issue.

The issue then became, why can't machines grind as well as humans? What does that have to do with KZ?

Jay
 
Eamon, I'm not offended. Like someone one this forum said "If one is looking for offense, they will find it" or something like that. If someone is offended, they don't know you or where your coming from.

I gota ask, the kitchen that you shoot your videos is, is that your home or your parents? Just a very nice house and you look like you just graduated HS. Meaning very youthful :biggrin:
 
Just spent some time oiling knife handles--customs, handmade, and factory made. Including a ZK.

I'd have to say after looking them over--and this is ENTIRELY subjective--that the knives that have been the biggest disappointments/least value for the $ are hand made. And the knives that make my heart go pitter pat are also handmade. But my off the shelf knives that I like quite a bit--and the ZK falls into this category--are good, dependable, bang for the buck knives (especially if you catch them on a big sale--something you probably won't encounter with handmade knives.) They might not always be my first choice, but they aren't anything I'll be getting rid of any time soon.

As far as "why can't the factory equipment grind like a person"--it probably can. And more consistently. But you need someone who knows what they're doing to design the process, and you need to be willing to pay for setup costs and quality control, taking into consideration your target market. Probably most things you buy can be made "better"--but it may not be worth it to the manufacturer to do more than "good enough". Where you and I draw the line for "good enough" may be different.
 
Just took a look. Damascus fans should be happy.

Jay
 
Sounds like they had too many people returning their knives for getting rusty and having the handles fare badly from sitting around in puddles unwashed--not to mention an occasional trip to the dishwasher-- so time to make them stainless with micarta handles. Wonder how that SG2 is going to fare in electric knife sharpeners?

Went to the SLT page for look at the stainless knives, and am shocked :bigeek: by how much the price on my ZK has increased. At the current prices, it's a lot less bang for the buck.
 
After 15% discount that puts the 210mm at $340. A comparable sg2 or PM damascus blade with mosaic pins from the likes of Takeshi, Tanaka, Itou, etc...would run no less than $450. Maybe not such a rip off after all.
 
This has been an interesting thread for me. I was just getting into Japanese knives about the time that the Shun Kramers came out and I bought the set with 5 knives. I've never been sorry about that purchase. The chef's knife and santoku both have convex profiles so no wedging. I love the paring knife and utility knife and the bread knife is the best I've used. The chef's knife and santoku were a little chippy at first but not so much after a couple sharpenings. A few years later I was able to buy a real Kramer 9" 52100 chef's knife. I have quite a few high end Japanese gyutos and the Kramer beats them all (for me). One great attribute of the Kramer is the distal taper on both the blade and handle. Magnificent. When the 52100 Zwilling Kramers came out I got a 10" chef's knife. I had none of the problems mentioned earlier in this thread. Fit and finish were flawless, the grind was perfectly symmetric, and I had no scale shrinkage (although I did saturate the hell out of the handle with camellia oil), and it has a very good distal taper on both the blade and handle. All these knives take and hold a very good edge. Now I see that SLT has the ZK in SG2. I really like the looks of that 10" chef's knife. Having some experience with SG2 in the Shun Kramers, I like it a lot. If the ZK SG2 is as thin as the 52100 ZK then I'm gonna get one. Looks like I'm going to have to make a trip to my nearest SLT which is about 40 miles away.
 
Am I the only one of this forum that has the WS Meiji in SG2? Its the absolute bomb. reminds me of Butch Harner. The steel is unchippable, last longer than my Kono HD's, blows away any color of Hitachi. They are discontinued now. I paid $179. Bottom row center.

IMG_2121.jpg
 
I pulled out my ZK a couple times today rather than one of my other knives. First time was for pork ribs--cutting through the cryovac, peeling the membrane off, general cleanup stuff. I can use the ZK without worrying about messing it up cutting plastic or hitting a bone. It sharpens easily if gets dull when using it for things I shouldn't, and if it really gets damaged, I can order another one just like it and get immediately. It's my Star Trek red shirt knife.

It's also my favorite knife for making rolls. I just like the way it goes through the dough without sticking, and it's really easy to clean up afterwards.
 
The Shun Kramers don't mimic the Kramer taper as accurately as the Zwilling; although, I've only seen the westerns, and not the Meiji. If I wasn't lefty those Meijis may have been more enticing to me, as well.

I hate to admit I am mildly intrigued by the new ZKramers in SG2...
 
Mucho Bocho said:
Am I the only one of this forum that has the WS Meiji in SG2? Its the absolute bomb. reminds me of Butch Harner. The steel is unchippable, last longer than my Kono HD's, blows away any color of Hitachi. They are discontinued now. I paid $179. Bottom row center.

IMG_2121.jpg
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I got one too. Its my wife favorite. It takes a wicked edge easily. It feels good on the stones and I have noticed that I can go months without a touch up and it is still shaving sharp (I do most of the cooking though).
 
Hey, kinda reviving an old thread here but wondering if anyone had some advice/techniques on avoiding handle shrinkage on these knives.

Currently you can get the Kramer 52100 8in Chefs for <$200 with SLT discount code and im considering picking one up for fun. My only concern is the handle shrinking, gaps and or rough edges or spacing that would occur would bug the heck out of me.....

Im a F&F perfectionist...what can i sau (shrugs)
 
SolidSnake03 said:
Hey, kinda reviving an old thread here but wondering if anyone had some advice/techniques on avoiding handle shrinkage on these knives.
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$200 plus the cost of a stabilized wood handle upgrade locally (another ~150-200) and you will satisfy your needs.
 
I just sanded down the handles on my Kramers, took all but 30 minutes. Then just rubbed in some mineral oil and they're good to go! The shrinkage isn't terrible, just need to smooth out the rivets some. Heck, once you sand it down and oil it, the handle looks ten times better!
Plus $200 for this knife is an awesome deal. You'd kind of be silly not to get it.
 
China,
I really dont want to replace the Kramer handle unless i can do so with a stabilized one that has the same shape. I have pretty large hands and the Kramer shape fits me quite well. Mostly was hoping to just preserve what was already there.

Good suggestion on the sanding and mineral oil. Was wondering if maybe a mineral oil soak right when i get it might help?
 
Mineral oil might do it, but they are natural wood, so fluctuations in ambient humidity will be a constant battle. I'd do as Marc does, and sand down the edges of the steel, and at least they won't be noticeable when the wood is at its smallest, and the scales will fit fine once plumped up with humidity/oil.

Also, his new stainless line has handles that won't shrink. Just sayin'. :)
 
Thanks for the advice Lefty!

Valid point on the Stainless line but that one isn't on sale at all at SLT meaning that for an 8' the Carbon 52100 is essentially the same price (something like $20 diff). I think for the same price the 52100 one might be the better knife?
 
Meh. Both have really good steels, HT, F and F, grinds...it just comes down to whether or not you like stainless or carbon. The stainless is "essentially AEB-L", and we all know how much people love that stuff.
 
I figured the stainless was AEB-L but having no experience with 52100 couldn't really comment on either compared to the other. I figured that the brass pieces as well as the handle were the explanation for the carbon being more than the stainless? Is there any other discernable differences? The geo looks the same as well as the handles but spine thickness as well as distal taper could differ here depending on material?

Just trying to gain a better understanding of if it is worth it to go carbon (Kramer 52100) vs. the Kramer Essential in this case where price between the two is equal....


Thanks
 
I banged out my prep today with a display 52100 zkramer I got few months back from sur la table for $175.I loved every minute of it. I wish they had a 10in instead of a 8in. AEBL is for housewives and little girls (just kidding :)) On a serious note, the essential is the same profile, but the knife is ground a lot thinner. The 52100 has a super thin tip, but it is a sexy beefy work horse. hope this helps

Erik
 
I've had the 10" for a couple years now and it by far has the most mileage of all my knives. I bought a 10" Essential just a couple months ago to check it out. It's thinner then the carbon, yet the carbon still has that crazy thin distal taper.
 
Awesome! Really am quite excited to hear all that. While i have your ears so to speak, which do you find to be the better all around general use kitchen knife? The Essential or the 52100?

As in, if you only had to keep one which would it be? And why?

Also, i do like to pull cut on softer stuff, do you find the profile problematic for this? I push cut and chop a good bit too, just wondering how she pulls bases on that geo....

Thanks!
 
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