Stone for thinning

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Mr.Wizard said:
I don't know what you found but it probably is not the No. 7205 FOSS stone. Get the one that is proven if you go this route.
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The 7205 is used in Holland by ice skaters. Prices around €40-50. VAT is 21%. If someone is offering a €15 stone, be aware of VAT, costs of shipping, and the handler's margin.
 
Only verified the last one. €6.75 for shipping to be added.
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@Sas I have no way to know what that stone is like. I don't know what size it is, or if it is dual-grit (two sided) like the modern one. However I suspect that Zandstra would not be keeping the FOSS name if the original was a piece of junk. Personally I would jump on that if I could confirm that it is a 25cm long stone, not some tiny version, with the understanding that it may not be quite as expected. You'll want to pick up some loose silicon carbide in the #50 range to recondition and flatten the stone.
 
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Mr.Wizard said:
@Sas I have no way to know what that stone is like. I don't know what size it is, or if it is dual-grit (two sided) like the modern one. However I suspect that Zandstra would not be keeping the FOSS name if the original was a piece of junk. Personally I would jump on that if I could confirm that it is a 25cm long stone, not some tiny version, with the understanding that it may not be quite as expected. You'll want to pick up some loose silicon carbide in the #50 range to recondition and flatten the stone.
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Yeah pretty sure it’s dual and 25cm :)
 
I've done a bit of thinning... A few years back, I found a very inexpensive chef's knife with what appeared to be very good steel. I thinned the blade to about 0.010-0.015" thick at the shoulders. The results, in terms of performance, were impressive, so I bought about twenty of them (at the time they were less than $15 each) and thinned each of them to give as Christmas gifts to each of the women in my circle of friends and family. I'm a serious knife sharpener, so each recipient was given instructions on care along with lifetime free sharpening. Several reported that it was by far the best kitchen knife they'd ever used. Most never came back for the free sharpening, so I assume they were used and abused.

The thinning was done on my 6X48 belt sander in the horizontal mode, with my finger tips applying pressure just behind the cutting edge. If I sensed any increase in temperature, I immediately went to a water bath to cool the edge. The key was to start at a coarse grit - about 180 grit and proceed up to 400 grit in steps of 220, 320 and 400, turning the angle with each grit change to watch for scratch removal. Trying to take off too much steel with a fine grit produces too much heat.

Thinning with a stone seems to me to be an exercise in boredom. High-end Japanese knives sharpened on whetstones takes hours and hours and hours - and that's just for sharpening. Thinning might take days. I think you might get a better return for your time by stoning for a wide (large radius) convex at a high polish. This produces an edge performance approximating thin shoulders.
 
tcmeyer said:
I've done a bit of thinning... A few years back, I found a very inexpensive chef's knife with what appeared to be very good steel. I thinned the blade to about 0.010-0.015" thick at the shoulders. The results, in terms of performance, were impressive, so I bought about twenty of them (at the time they were less than $15 each) and thinned each of them to give as Christmas gifts to each of the women in my circle of friends and family. I'm a serious knife sharpener, so each recipient was given instructions on care along with lifetime free sharpening. Several reported that it was by far the best kitchen knife they'd ever used. Most never came back for the free sharpening, so I assume they were used and abused.

The thinning was done on my 6X48 belt sander in the horizontal mode, with my finger tips applying pressure just behind the cutting edge. If I sensed any increase in temperature, I immediately went to a water bath to cool the edge. The key was to start at a coarse grit - about 180 grit and proceed up to 400 grit in steps of 220, 320 and 400, turning the angle with each grit change to watch for scratch removal. Trying to take off too much steel with a fine grit produces too much heat.

Thinning with a stone seems to me to be an exercise in boredom. High-end Japanese knives sharpened on whetstones takes hours and hours and hours - and that's just for sharpening. Thinning might take days. I think you might get a better return for your time by stoning for a wide (large radius) convex at a high polish. This produces an edge performance approximating thin shoulders.
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Sharpening should not take hours and thinning will only take a long time if it has long been neglected or you want to re-profile.

Most of us can sharpen dull to done in probably 10 or 15 minutes. Having to re-establish an edge, work out chips, etc. can take longer.
 
Thanks for noticing. I've probably visited here eight or ten times over the years - only when an email from KKF suggested there was something of interest to me. And I generally post only when I think I have something positive to offer. I've been mainly resident on the Wicked Edge forum where I had been pretty active (2000+ posts over 13 years) until this last year.

Maybe the definition of "thinning" here is different from what it means to me. I'm thinking it's the equivalent of hundreds of sharpenings in terms of the amount of steel to be removed.
 
@tcmeyer Ah, I thought I recognized the handle but I wasn't sure you were the same person.

Some people thin as part of every sharpening; I believe Murray Carter suggested this in one of his videos. Some here also like spending a lot of time on the stones, considering it "Zen" rather than boredom.
 
Mr.Wizard said:
@tcmeyer Ah, I thought I recognized the handle but I wasn't sure you were the same person.

Some people thin as part of every sharpening; I believe Murray Carter suggested this in one of his videos. Some here also like spending a lot of time on the stones, considering it "Zen" rather than boredom.
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"Thin every time you sharpen" is like "check the lug nuts 50 miles after a tire change."

You know you *should* do it..... xD
 
I believe that in the case of a Scandia grind, you are thinning every time you sharpen.

I'm too old for Zen. Not enough time left.
 
I wanted to share my journey in fixing my yakut knife. The flat side had about 2mm of bevel created, which is not what you want. The flat side should stay flat similar to a Japanese single bevel.

I can’t imagine the pain it would be trying to flatten the back side using stones. Between keeping the stone flat, refreshing clogged stone and relative slow abrasion - arghhh.

Using 60grit ceramic sandpaper glued to the flat Atoma plate worked as expected. It was not a bliss either but I was able to do it in about an hour time split between multiple days. I had to change the sandpaper 3 times during this process which adds up to about a length of a single 24’’ belt.
 
@tarnschaf
tarnschaf said:
Hey i was reading along and wondered if anyone can give me some information if i could thin on this.
https://www.amazon.de/Großer-Rutscher-Abrichtstein-200x100x30mm-FEPA/dp/B01CGW68EG
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Extremely coarse stones such as this are probably not a good idea. There is a point of diminishing returns where coarser does not mean faster, it just means deeper scratches that are harder to remove. Further a dressing stone is probably of a very hard bond if it is similar to ones I've seen, which means that it isn't optimal for use on steel and will require a lot of refreshing to make it work.
 
tarnschaf said:
Hey i was reading along and wondered if anyone can give me some information if i could thin on this.
https://www.amazon.de/Großer-Rutscher-Abrichtstein-200x100x30mm-FEPA/dp/B01CGW68EG
I have no access to a belt sander.
Steel:
4cr13
Friodur
x50CrMov15

Thanks
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Nothing wrong with Zische. But FEPA-30 is twice coarser than I find in my gritchard. Meant for maintaining very coarse stones. The steel types you have mentioned are seriously abrasion resistant. With these I would look for the SG220, combined with Shapton's puck, https://www.knivesandtools.de/de/pt/-shapton-lapping-disc-dressing-stone-0505.htm if you're serious about doing it by hand.
Still, stay away from the very edge. A marker and a loupe will guide you.

I find thinning those highly abrasion resistant soft stainless no fun at all. With carbons, it will take a few hours to have all done, including restoring an acceptable finish, resharpen and restoring the patina. With those steels, count in days.

Therefore, another option were to find a serious sharpener with a cooled powered equipment. As you live in Germany, Mr Jürgen Schanz Schleiftechnik
Karlsfeldstrasse 13
76297 Stutensee
is very serious and doesn't charge too much. Once thinned, you may maintain your knives with simple maintenance thinning every time you sharpen, in order to keep them thin right behind the edge — say, 0.2mm for a general purpose knife with board contact.
 
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Redwax said:
Would you be able to show some links that indicate this? The odd references that I have seen say it is 1.4116 that they use.

Thanks.
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Yes, true. Had their Japanese FC61 in mind. Do they call their German series Friodur as well? Then you're certainly right, and its 4116.
 
Benuser said:
Yes, true. Had their Japanese FC61 in mind. Do they call their German series Friodur as well? Then you're certainly right, and its 4116.
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Honestly, I'm not sure but the impression I had was that Friodur is the name they give for the special cryo process in their heat treatment, so I would speculate it could refer to all of their steels. I would also speculate it isn't all that special but that's another story.
 
Redwax said:
Honestly, I'm not sure but the impression I had was that Friodur is the name they give for the special cryo process in their heat treatment, so I would speculate it could refer to all of their steels. I would also speculate it isn't all that special but that's another story.
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You're absolutely right. They use the cryo Friodur for all kinds of knives, including the usual 4116 stuff. With all kinds of unique properties, as we know.
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Thanks for the replys. I also have a store who sells 120 and 220 zische stones close.
https://www.juergens-shop.com/de/
He also offers service and i would not need to send the knife.
I bought a very cheap cleaver on ali and thought i could thin it out to perfrom better ^^ it is not delivered so far i just wanted to check my options.
It seems it might be the best options to ask someone with the right tools.
Thanks for your help.
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4000...47ca5324a98925789e19ff38011&afSmartRedirect=y
 
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