Advice on next Jnat stone.

[Markcg]

Hi all,

So it happened, I’m falling down the JNat rabbit hole. I’ve picked up the below stones from Maksim, and am trying to learn as much as I can about what characteristics to look for in a stone. I currently have a mix of steel and forging type knives (clad and honyaki) and mostly gyuto and yanagiba (sakimaru and fugubiki). If an experienced user were to imagine they only had the below 2 stones, what would their 3rd and 4th stone be? I think I’m looking for something to bring out the contrast of finishes, rather than pure tooth or sharpness. I have a buffer for mirror polish, so maybe something softer.

I live in Japan so could visit wholesalers but also don’t mind getting from reputable online sellers abroad. I know it’s a very open ended question, which probably betrays how new I am to all this, so any tidbits of advice, however small and caveat filled would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shoubudani-lv-2-5-a2275/https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/oohira-lv-4-a2113/

 

[childermass]

I would suggest to make the jump to medium grit stones to complement the two finishers. A nice Natsuya might do a lot for you and it will bring out lots of details in your cladding material.

 

[Matt Zilliox]

Something like aizu or natsuya for laying down the initial base.. then that shobu you have to blend bevels,, erase scratches,, etc.. Then a 3.5 to 4 uchi or marouyama suita to build on the kasumi. Then your fine finisher to bring out mirror and details.

 

[Alder26]

Matt said it, but I'll second it. Uchigomori if you want finer, prettier finishes. Natsuya/aizu for fantastic mid grit Kasumi or base for the next stone, they also produce particularly nasty edges for general use.

 

[LostHighway]

This is slightly off topic but in Japan, with decent Japanese language skills or a translator, will Morihei sell directly to retail consumers or do you have to go through other shops? Other Japan domestic stone vendors of note?

 

[Markcg]

Thanks for the input everyone! The progression from softer to harder stones makes sense to me as synthetics are all I’ve previously sharpened on. I’m assuming I would “finish” on a stone depending on what finish I’m going for after doing most of the actual sharpening on a natasuya / numata? Is an uchi bench stone something worth pursuing, or is it not worth the effort and cost?

This is slightly off topic but in Japan, with decent Japanese language skills or a translator, will Morihei sell directly to retail consumers or do you have to go through other shops? Other Japan domestic stone vendors of note?

I haven’t been yet, but their place in Tokyo looks like it’s retail, and has “please come by and the owner will help you with advice” kind of statements. I’m planning to go once Tokyo’s COVID restrictions are lifted. It’s less than a 30 min drive away from me, so am really looking forward to it!

 

[user 16756]

Thanks for the input everyone! The progression from softer to harder stones makes sense to me as synthetics are all I’ve previously sharpened on. I’m assuming I would “finish” on a stone depending on what finish I’m going for after doing most of the actual sharpening on a natasuya / numata? Is an uchi bench stone something worth pursuing, or is it not worth the effort and cost?

I haven’t been yet, but their place in Tokyo looks like it’s retail, and has “please come by and the owner will help you with advice” kind of statements. I’m planning to go once Tokyo’s COVID restrictions are lifted. It’s less than a 30 min drive away from me, so am really looking forward to it!

my uchi is a bench stone. they are quite expensive, and tbh the finish off of mine is not any better than my Maruoyama Aosuita. while the maru stone was pricier, it is also a LOT bigger so $/oz it's a much better deal IMO, and it works well for edges as well. I also had to dig some lines out of it I couldnt see because it came unlapped.

it's not that I regret that purchase, but I am glad I got it a bit later, because I was able to get some suitas first, and I think the finish off of those is good enough that unless youre ready to really build a full on progression with no gaps at all that those are maybe the way to go initially.

if you dont have to have a monster maru with a bunch of renge, Ive seen some decent looking shior suitas for 300 USD and less from miura knives.

 

[Matt Zilliox]

I love uchi benchstones. I find them magic. My marou shiro suita is close, I have a tenjyou suita thats nearly there, but I have 3 uchis that are so good, contrast and nuance machines. If nuance doesn't concern you, uchis are not needed.

All uchis. The middle 3 are contrast machines. All around the price of a marou shiro suita other than the big boy.

 

[Matt Zilliox]

Thats the thing about stones... not all uchis are good. Some suita are horribly reactive, some are scratch monsters. I may love a stone you hate and visa versa. Thats why there's a rabbit hole... you just keep chasing

 

[Markcg]

my uchi is a bench stone. they are quite expensive, and tbh the finish off of mine is not any better than my Maruoyama Aosuita. while the maru stone was pricier, it is also a LOT bigger so $/oz it's a much better deal IMO, and it works well for edges as well. I also had to dig some lines out of it I couldnt see because it came unlapped.

it's not that I regret that purchase, but I am glad I got it a bit later, because I was able to get some suitas first, and I think the finish off of those is good enough that unless youre ready to really build a full on progression with no gaps at all that those are maybe the way to go initially.

if you dont have to have a monster maru with a bunch of renge, Ive seen some decent looking shior suitas for 300 USD and less from miura knives.

Thank you for the insight. I’ll check miura’s website out. Would you say that for starting out, I should look for quantity over quality (within reason)? Try to get more smaller less than perfect stones over collector grades, or should I plan my stone purchases carefully (how I’ve been approaching my knife acquisitions). In hind sight, which would you have done or did do?

 

[Markcg]

Thats the thing about stones... not all uchis are good. Some suita are horribly reactive, some are scratch monsters. I may love a stone you hate and visa versa. Thats why there's a rabbit hole... you just keep chasing

This is what I’m afraid of- that my inexperience with Jnats will lead me down the wrong hole, so to speak If you were in my position, where would you start sniffing around for a uchi bench stone that is tested for contrast and nuance ?

 

[nakiriknaifuwaifu]

This is what I’m afraid of- that my inexperience with Jnats will lead me down the wrong hole, so to speak If you were in my position, where would you start sniffing around for a uchi bench stone that is tested for contrast and nuance ?

The mine of BST (It's where I'd go, at any rate)

 

[user 16756]

I love uchi benchstones. I find them magic. My marou shiro suita is close, I have a tenjyou suita thats nearly there, but I have 3 uchis that are so good, contrast and nuance machines. If nuance doesn't concern you, uchis are not needed.

All uchis. The middle 3 are contrast machines. All around the price of a marou shiro suita other than the big boy.
View attachment 109790

my uchi looks a LOT like the one you have in the middle there. I do like it, fwiw.

Thank you for the insight. I’ll check miura’s website out. Would you say that for starting out, I should look for quantity over quality (within reason)? Try to get more smaller less than perfect stones over collector grades, or should I plan my stone purchases carefully (how I’ve been approaching my knife acquisitions). In hind sight, which would you have done or did do?

uh I mean to be honest I dont have some of the end-game stones some other folks have. I have some >500 USD stones but only barely. I am glad I spent the most on my Maru because it's my favorite, and it's big and so it will last a long time.

every stone Ive personally bought has had some merit to it, I think the key is to not go in with the idea that a stone is going to do something specific unless you have someone you can trust test it for you.

if I were starting over Id buy every stone I have again. I have about 10 jnats atm and like all of them but my real stars are both suitas, one from Maruoyama and one from Ohira

 

[Markcg]

if I were starting over Id buy every stone I have again. I have about 10 jnats atm and like all of them but my real stars are both suitas, one from Maruoyama and one from Ohira

Thank you for this- I do like to learn while doing, and the more opaque aspects of eventual stone quality are fueling my enthusiasm- not a risk averse individual. With that said, I think I might be looking for a Natsuya and Suita first and keep my eyes open for a solid uchi (if one is to be had).

 

[DHunter86]

Thank you for the insight. I’ll check miura’s website out. Would you say that for starting out, I should look for quantity over quality (within reason)? Try to get more smaller less than perfect stones over collector grades, or should I plan my stone purchases carefully (how I’ve been approaching my knife acquisitions). In hind sight, which would you have done or did do?

If I had to start over, I'd carefully curate what I buy, given that I had access to try out the stones before purchase. As you're in Japan, it'd be much easier to drop by a wholesaler, and try a bunch of different stones before making the purchase. While the rest of us have to contend with only having pictures and maybe that odd video, you'd have the opportunity to do what is recommended for a JNat purchase - try before you buy! It's the most traditional way of buying a JNat, in Japan at least, as no two stones are alike.

 

[naader]

Thanks for the input everyone! The progression from softer to harder stones makes sense to me as synthetics are all I’ve previously sharpened on. I’m assuming I would “finish” on a stone depending on what finish I’m going for after doing most of the actual sharpening on a natasuya / numata? Is an uchi bench stone something worth pursuing, or is it not worth the effort and cost?

I haven’t been yet, but their place in Tokyo looks like it’s retail, and has “please come by and the owner will help you with advice” kind of statements. I’m planning to go once Tokyo’s COVID restrictions are lifted. It’s less than a 30 min drive away from me, so am really looking forward to it!

Uchigumori are mostly wasted on clad knives. They are not particularly fine and leave more of a kasumi finish with little detail in iron. They shine best on soft steels like tamahagane, though they are still good on harder hitachi steels, depending on the stone.

 

[naader]

Thank you for the insight. I’ll check miura’s website out. Would you say that for starting out, I should look for quantity over quality (within reason)? Try to get more smaller less than perfect stones over collector grades, or should I plan my stone purchases carefully (how I’ve been approaching my knife acquisitions). In hind sight, which would you have done or did do?

If you buy ****, you will be burning your cash.. buy quality stones from people you trust. A 300 buck Maruo shiro from miura is likely gona **** you in the long run and have you dump another 500 on a better one. May as well just save yourself the trouble and get an 800 buck stone that will blow you away and last a lifetime.

 

[Markcg]

Uchigumori are mostly wasted on clad knives. They are not particularly fine and leave more of a kasumi finish with little detail in iron. They shine best on soft steels like tamahagane, though they are still good on harder hitachi steels, depending on the stone.

Good to know, thank you! It'll be a while till I'm comfortable enough with polishing (if ever) to touch my Kato Tamahagane with anything but cloth, but my everyday knife is a Miz Aogami2 Honyaki that I like keeping beautiful.

If you buy ****, you will be burning your cash.. buy quality stones from people you trust. A 300 buck Maruo shiro from miura is likely gona **** you in the long run and have you dump another 500 on a better one. May as well just save yourself the trouble and get an 800 buck stone that will blow you away and last a lifetime.

I like how you think, sir!

 

[naader]

The question on your original post is a little misguided I think. Asking what your next stones should be is such a vague question; there are hundreds of useful types of stones out there. All we know is you have a soft and a medium hard finisher/prefinisher based on subjective standards.
Strong contrast often comes at the cost of detail, and your lvl 2.5 shobu should do a killer job of it. Contrast is often the realm of softer stones that darken cladding iron.
People are recommending natsuya and aizu because they're really good prepolishers and the stones you already have should already do a good job for what you're asking.
Also, mirror from compound is vastly different to mirroring with stones. A burnished, low contrast stone finish will often bring out an incredible amount of detail in iron cladding, where mirroring with compounds will show nothing.

Think carefully about exactly what you're looking for and maybe I can give you a pointer.

 

[naader]

Good to know, thank you! It'll be a while till I'm comfortable enough with polishing (if ever) to touch my Kato Tamahagane with anything but cloth, but my everyday knife is a Miz Aogami2 Honyaki that I like keeping beautiful.



I like how you think, sir!

I would loooove to see the kato!

 

[Markcg]

The question on your original post is a little misguided I think. Asking what your next stones should be is such a vague question; there are hundreds of useful types of stones out there. All we know is you have a soft and a hard finisher/prefinished based on subjective standards.
Strong contrast often comes at the cost of detail, and your lvl 2.5 shobu should do a killer job of it. Contrast is often the realm of softer stones that darken cladding iron.
People are recommending natsuya and aizu because they're really good prepolishers and the stones you already have should already do a good job for what you're asking.
Also, mirror from compound is vastly different to mirroring with stones. A burnished, low contrast stone finish will often bring out an incredible amount of detail in iron cladding, where mirroring with compounds will show nothing.

Think carefully about exactly what you're looking for and maybe I can give you a pointer.

Thank you, and yes, I know just enough to know how much more there is to learn regarding this! Once I play a bit more with the stones I have, I will take you up on the pointer offer.

I would loooove to see the kato!

It's somewhere over Germany according to DHL tracking =) Will post when I can!

 

[naader]

It's somewhere over Germany according to DHL tracking =) Will post when I can!

Cant wait to see it!

 

[user 16756]

Im not sure that I agree with the premise that one of those maruo shiros is a waste @naader , especially given that the OP can potentially physically drop in the shop and take a look. Im also not really arguing that the OP should cheap out, only that there are nice stones for not massive money, including the shobu he bought from Maxim (as it happens I think I have a similar one and while I dont love it for finishing the edge off it is incredible). I do have some nicer, bigger pricier stones too but while I like them better I have found enjoyment in some cheaper ones, too.

I think also we may have slightly different tastes re finishes, because personally I find contrast and uniformity appealing in a finish on a clad knife.

fwiw Ive seen your insta (and follow it) and I think you do really know what you're talking about, admittedly more than I do frankly, but some of the things youre discussing as if theyre negatives are, to my taste at least, positives, wrt finishes.

(also if you'd like to point me in the direction of one of those stones you like for bringing out the detail in iron cladding, I wouldnt say no to some advice)

 

[user 16756]

ok, I also have to disclose that Im in a position where if I bought a stone for 250, 300 bucks and absolutely hated it and then no one bought it, I wouldnt really lose any sleep over it, so my risk tolerance may also not match the OPs (or it might).

if Im honest the main reason I havent splurged on any 4 figure USD stones at this point is that the channels I would want to buy one through (ie a vendor with above and beyond customer service or one of the folks around here whose opinion I can trust) have been a bit dry lately.

 

[naader]

Im not sure that I agree with the premise that one of those maruo shiros is a waste @naader , especially given that the OP can potentially physically drop in the shop and take a look. Im also not really arguing that the OP should cheap out, only that there are nice stones for not massive money, including the shobu he bought from Maxim (as it happens I think I have a similar one and while I dont love it for finishing the edge off it is incredible). I do have some nicer, bigger pricier stones too but while I like them better I have found enjoyment in some cheaper ones, too.

I think also we may have slightly different tastes re finishes, because personally I find contrast and uniformity appealing in a finish on a clad knife.

fwiw Ive seen your insta (and follow it) and I think you do really know what you're talking about, admittedly more than I do frankly, but some of the things youre discussing as if theyre negatives are, to my taste at least, positives, wrt finishes.

(also if you'd like to point me in the direction of one of those stones you like for bringing out the detail in iron cladding, I wouldnt say no to some advice)

I've seen the stones miura sells for 300, they're covered in scary lines. I would recommend he go directly to tsuchihashi for a maruo, for 300 bucks, you can get a much better stone right at the source. I didn't mean to tear down less costly stones, there are definitely gems to be found, but I would never gamble on something like that. If he can go directly to tsuchihashi, with 300 bucks, he will 100% walk out with an amazing stone.

When it comes to the larger, more expensive stuff, I almost always buy from friends or specific tool shops I have good relationships with in japan. Not worth the risk otherwise.
People like otto and carlos are generally safe bets if you want something crazy. I'd throw my own name in there but those guys are my seniors in the game so they come first.