Beginner queries - do I just have insufficient equipment or am I doing something wrong?

[nightslayer]

Unsure about the forum ethics, but went through the first two pages and didn't know how far back I should scroll to try find someone with similar problems to me; if this should be ported elsewhere or merged with another thread or something please let me know!

So the only maintenance equipment I have are a Sabatier grooved steel (which I started out with before getting into this whole knife enthusiast mess) and more recently, a 1k Suehiro CERAX and 6k Arashiyama. I have mostly stopped honing with the grooved steel because I have read that they chew up blades, but I have also read that steels might be okay if you go on them lightly with spine-leading (edge trailing?) strokes so I occasionally do that to touch up a knife after use.

I've sharpened quite a few knives on the 1k and finished a lesser few on the 5k. The process is roughly the same - gauge a rough angle (e.g. 11 for the Shun paring, 17 for the Henckels four-star chef, 20 for a thick Sabatier slicer I was playing around with), grind perpendicular to the stone till I feel a burr (roughly maybe 20 times to start with?) then travel down the rest of the blade doing the same. Flip the blade, do the other side till I feel the burr again, then flip the blade, halve the number of strokes and go again, and stop when I get to 5 strokes per side. If I'm going on to the 6k then I repeat the process, but on the 6k I can hardly feel a burr when it's formed so I kinda just go by faith. At any rate, when I decide to stop I 'deburr' by using light knifeweight-only edge-leading strokes down the entire length of the blade at about 25-30 degrees about three times per side.

The issue I have is - how sharp should I expect my knives to be when I'm done with that process? I read all over the place about hair-whittling and push-cutting paper but I can only ever seem to get that sharpness after I've done the 6k and the bevels are mirror-shiny, and only ever at select parts of my blade (often times nearer the heel) rather than the entire blade, and that sharpness does not seem to stay for long. And from what I read from the forums people seem to have no issues with getting shaving edges with 1k stones (I have also seen that red brick sharpening video)..

So my question is - am I going horribly wrong with my process? Key areas I think may be issues would be using too acute angles (since I'm not really gauging with an angle guide so much as going by rough feel) which don't help edge retention, and deburring - since I don't actually use cork or felt or anything of the sort, as well as lack of anything to strop with. Any advice would certainly be appreciated!

 

[LoneWolfGang]

When I deburr, I stay true to the edge bevel.

Your equipment is well-suited for hard Japanese steel. Those two stones are all you will ever need for the Shun paring knife. You should be able to shave and drop through paper on the 1k edge. If you cannot, your edge is not ready for the 6k.

Something 400-600 would be more effective on the Henkels and the Sabatier. You should be able to shave and drop through paper on the 400 edge.

If the Henkels is near factory condition, you should be able to hold it down with the 1k for awhile.

The steel is great for soft steels, hazardous for hard steels. Use it on the Henkels and Sabatier, but not the Shun.

You need a flattening set-up too.

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

... get that sharpness... at select parts of my blade (often times nearer the heel) rather than the entire blade....

This suggests to me you are getting it right some of the time. Therefore you probably need to work on your consistency and (perhaps) angle control as you work around the belly of the blade. Jon @JKI has videos on sharpening and, for me at least, makes the adjustment of angle as you work towards the tip very understandable. (I still need to master it though.) There are several little tricks he mentions, e.g. the "Sharpie trick", that will help you visualize what you're actually doing to the edge.

All that said, a lower grit stone for the softer, often tougher, Euro-knife style steel would probably help. Plus, if you aren't already, making sure you keep your stones reasonably flat will make a difference. (Diamond flattening plates are preferred here, but no reason you can't use drywall screen on a flat surface, e.g. a spare tile, to get the job done for less money.)

 

[nightslayer]

Thanks for the quick replies! Won't staying true to the edge bevels not do a thing to the burr though? And yes I assumed I should be able to get edges like those, but is there anything I should be doing differently besides raising a burr along the entire edge at the right angle?

And dang, I was hoping that I could just use a single set of stones for all knives.. what is the disadvantage of using those stones on European steel? I have actually sold off the Shun (given as a present) to fund a purchase actually worth the money, so for the moment all I have is European steel (though I am looking into carbon gyutos for said purchase). The Henckels was sadly terribly beat up when I found it lying disused and unused in a drawer, so nowhere near factory condition at the moment. How would that make a difference though?

I do have a flattener, but I watched YouTube vids suggesting that flattening the stone wasn't absolutely essential, and sharpening with a dished stone to prove that point and henceforth stopped using it..

With regards to consistency, I figured that what the sharpie trick does is lets you tell if you're acrually sharpening the edge when you grind, and so if I could feel a burr that essentially tells me the same thing?

 

[Nemo]

Firstly, I can't claim any special sharpeninf expertise but I have gone through the process of starting to learn freehand sharpening over the last year or so and I can well remember the tips which really helped my edges improve.

I'd be very happy for anyone who is an experienced sharpener to make suggestions to improve my technique.

You can definitely get Japanese knives to shave at 1K. I can usually get Wusties to at least catch hairs at 400.

I would suggest that you ditch the grooved steel and get a smooth one to use on your Henkles and Sab. Keep it away from your Japanese knives. If you must use it on them, use VERY light strokes (edge trailing might be better). Much better would be to make (or buy) a strop. I made one from balsa loaded with 1 mciron diamond. CrOx should work too. Super cheap and easy to do. When you steel or strop, I think it's best to replicate the sharpening angle. On a balsa/diamond strop, you get some aural and tactile feedback when the edge is in contact with the stropping surface.

Once you have created an even burr with heavy pressure on the 1K, you can work on refining the burr on the 1k. I rinse my stone first and usually do a light deburring (many don't deburr at this stage). Then maybe 5-10 strokes but with lighter pressure on each side, then again with even lighter pressure (just above the weight of the blade). Each reduction in pressure will reduce the size of the burr. When I started gradually reducing pressure to reduce the burr, my edges improved a huge amount. I think this is because if you deburr small burr, the resulting edge will be keener than if you deburr a big burr.

I deburr by rinsing the stone, then weakening the burr by drawing the edge laterally and a little forward AT the sharpening angle (like you are "cutting the water" off the stone) with VERY light pressure (maybe even less than the weight of the blade) several times each side. As a guide, 2-3 for carbon steels, 3-4 for PM steels, 4-5 for Japanese stainless and 5-6 for Western stainless usually works well for me. Confirm that the burr is flipping after each stroke. Then I draw the edge very gently through a cork a few times and confirm that the burr is gone. Some people use felt or softwood. Many people who are much better sharpeners than me advocate weakening the burr with stropping strokes instead. This could possibly cause less damage to the edge than edge leading strokes. If you deburr at a higher angle than the edge, I suspect you could possibly damage the edge, especially if weakening the burr with edge leading strokes.

Once you have confirmed a burr on your coarsest stone, you don't need to raise a big burr thereafter. I just use light pressure with my finer stones and then deburr on the finer stone. I usually do strop on diamond loaded balsa after this.

The 5 areas that I would consider looking at with your knife maintenance regimen are:
1) Don't use the grooved steel. Use a strop for Japanese knives.
2) Use a reducing pressure progression on your coarsest stone to reduce the size of the burr.
3) Weaken the burr at the sharpening angle, not at a higher angle.
4) Remove the burr in cork, felt or softwood. It is possible to remove the burr just by progressively weakening it and some very good sharpeners do do this, but you still want to confirm that the burr is gone if you do this. Failure to remove the burr could account for your short lived edges.
5) It is possible that your angles are too acute for some knives. 11 degrees may be a bit acute for Shun's HT of VG10 for example.

I take Western stainless to 400 then deburr on 1000. Most of my Japanese steels get a 1K/3K or 1K/8K edge, depending on the knife. Or my mood. 1K/6K really should work fine for most Japanese knives.

 

[Nemo]

Thanks for the quick replies! Won't staying true to the edge bevels not do a thing to the burr though? And yes I assumed I should be able to get edges like those, but is there anything I should be doing differently besides raising a burr along the entire edge at the right angle?

And dang, I was hoping that I could just use a single set of stones for all knives.. what is the disadvantage of using those stones on European steel? I have actually sold off the Shun (given as a present) to fund a purchase actually worth the money, so for the moment all I have is European steel (though I am looking into carbon gyutos for said purchase). The Henckels was sadly terribly beat up when I found it lying disused and unused in a drawer, so nowhere near factory condition at the moment. How would that make a difference though?

I do have a flattener, but I watched YouTube vids suggesting that flattening the stone wasn't absolutely essential, and sharpening with a dished stone to prove that point and henceforth stopped using it..

With regards to consistency, I figured that what the sharpie trick does is lets you tell if you're acrually sharpening the edge when you grind, and so if I could feel a burr that essentially tells me the same thing?

Deburring at the edge angle weakens the burr just fine and you can feel the burr flip to the other side.

Euro steel is generally coarser grained, so won't hold a high polish. It therefore benefits from having a toothy edge.

As a new sharpener, you will probably get better results from a flat stone.

If you create a bigger burr than you need, you'll need to refine it or end up with an ordinary edge. The sharpie trick can help avoid this getting a really big burr just to confirm you are hitting the edge.

 

[Drosophil]

and only ever at select parts of my blade (often times nearer the heel) rather than the entire blade

Don't count strokes. Or rather, do count strokes if you think they help, but use them as a rough guide to avoid getting carried away rather than a magical number. Check the burr and make sure it's even and use the sharpie trick to help you hit the edge. If you feel that the burr is smaller in some places or if you feel any "bald spots", do a few more strokes with pressure on those areas.

 

[XooMG]

I sometimes remove the burr by picking up the leg of some old trousers, holding it taut by stepping on them, and stropping a few times haphazardly before cutting into some balsa. Beat up your edge a bit more in deburring and see what happens.

 

[Marek07]

I sometimes remove the burr by picking up the leg of some old trousers, holding it taut by stepping on them, and stropping a few times haphazardly before cutting into some balsa. Beat up your edge a bit more in deburring and see what happens.

Been trying something like this since seeing @Badgertooth doing a similar thing with old t-shirts. Seems to work IMO.

 

[galvaude]

I'm in no way an expert, but I remember being in the same place as you. You are going through a normal stage that most beginners have to go. You need a high volume of practise. Get a "practise" knife. Mine was a Global G2, at first I thought I would waste but it is still going strong after a lot of practise.

Stay on the 1k until the edge is near perfect, forget the 6k, it won't do anything if your 1k edge is not absolutely sharp from heel to tip.
Don't be shy of using the magic marker trick and re-appying marker often. It is slow and all but it just work.
Test your edges on paper towel, not print paper or newspaper.

Deburr on coarse fabric like jeans, I have seen the takamura brothers talk about that on youtube and it work way better than cork or felt block.

 

[Yet-Another-Dave]

Thanks for the quick replies! Won't staying true to the edge bevels not do a thing to the burr though? And yes I assumed I should be able to get edges like those, but is there anything I should be doing differently besides raising a burr along the entire edge at the right angle?

I'm not sure I understand, but this sounds like you're raising the spine and therefore dubbing your nice new edge as you chase the bevel.

And dang, I was hoping that I could just use a single set of stones for all knives.. what is the disadvantage of using those stones on European steel? I have actually sold off the Shun (given as a present) to fund a purchase actually worth the money, so for the moment all I have is European steel (though I am looking into carbon gyutos for said purchase). The Henckels was sadly terribly beat up when I found it lying disused and unused in a drawer, so nowhere near factory condition at the moment. How would that make a difference though?

Coarser stones remove metal more quickly and work better with some steels (steel type & heat treatment, etc.) With badly out of shape knives a coarse stone will get you back close with much less work. With the softer (less hard) Euro-style steels they also seem to work better with the metal.

I do have a flattener, but I watched YouTube vids suggesting that flattening the stone wasn't absolutely essential, and sharpening with a dished stone to prove that point and henceforth stopped using it..

You need to be more selective in which videos you watch. Sure there are a lot of things outstanding technique can compensate for, e.g. I've seen the video where Murray Carter sharpens a knife on a cinder block to prove it is skill and not the stone that matters. However he has mad skills you, and I, don't have, so why make your life difficult?

With regards to consistency, I figured that what the sharpie trick does is lets you tell if you're acrually sharpening the edge when you grind, and so if I could feel a burr that essentially tells me the same thing?

The Sharpie trick helps you visualize how you're contacting the bevel. The burr just tells you you got to the edge. You may be above the edge, effectively thinning the knife and taking a extra long time to raise a burr, or right on top of the edge, effectively a clumsy micro-bevel creating a burr almost immediately (and likely a duller edge than you intended.)

 

[StonedEdge]

I'd say for starters stop counting strokes RIGHT NOW! Go by feel. Start teaching yourself to "read" your edge using the tips of your fingers, you will quickly pick up on where/how your burrs are forming

Secondly, start trying to create the smallest initial burr possible, you don't need to have a huge honking burr. This goes back to my point above.

Thirdly, experiment with pressure. By the end stages of your sharpening process you should barely be using any pressure at all.

Another important aspect is to get a very good understanding of the shape of your bevel/knife and what it physically feels like to maintain whatever angle you chose throughout the entire length of the blade (for example, a lot of people find the rounded transition between belly and tip of a Gyuto or petty to be difficult to maintain angle initially, you will need to change the angle of your hand/wrist)

Deburr between stones using a self-sealing material like cork, balsa wood or even felt. Leaving any remnants of a burr will give you a dull spot on your bevel or simply make you r knife get dull very fast.

Lastly, if you're not satisfied with the end result, make mental notes of some of the things you may want to do differently and start the process all over again. You'll be shaving sharp in no time.

OH YEAH... AND FLATTEN YOUR STONES REGULARLY!!!!

 

[galvaude]

OP, just want to clear something which might me understated. When peolple say to deburr on cork, felt or fabric etc. You do so only when you can't feel a burr anymore with your fingers, otherwise you will just mess the apex and wonder why these deburring techniques don't work. You have a abrade the burr down to a tiny tiny metal residu first before think of "deburring". I have found gently abrading the burr down better than fatiguing it's connection by flipping it countless of times only to find yourselft with a fragile edge.

 

[nightslayer]

Thanks all for the replies - have definitely filled in a lot of the holes in my basic theory knowledge and will have a go at it again soon! Tried it again yesterday with varying pressure but that didn't seem to do it entirely. But at the same time I think I have a problem with feeling anything other than a "large honking burr" - sometimes I'm not sure if it's a burr I'm feeling or just the edge/placebo!

 

[nightslayer]

Still feel slightly uncertain - now occasionally get inconsistencies in my burr formation and don't know if it's simply because the stone isn't flattened.. have gone and tried again using more pressure initially and decreasing till I am barely pressing with my left hand (I'm a righty), and now I have an edge that looks like this -

Oddly I flattened the edge of the knife by grinding the edge perpendicularly against a coarse grained stone to start off with (this is a cheap carbon steel I'm using for the practice) and discovered that as I sharpen the shape of the edge itself goes wonky - I wonder what causes that? I'm suspecting the steel because it went wonky post-sharpening the first time around at the exact same spot, and I presumed it was a manufacturing fault on the edge to begin with.

Now my question is - what sort of sharpness should I be looking for? I can now shave hair if I put the blade at an obtuse enough angle, but push cutting paper still eludes me. These tests seem a bit banal though, but all my knives will go through onions so I don't know how else to differentiate..

 

[crlums]

Still feel slightly uncertain - now occasionally get inconsistencies in my burr formation and don't know if it's simply because the stone isn't flattened.. have gone and tried again using more pressure initially and decreasing till I am barely pressing with my left hand (I'm a righty), and now I have an edge that looks like this -

Oddly I flattened the edge of the knife by grinding the edge perpendicularly against a coarse grained stone to start off with (this is a cheap carbon steel I'm using for the practice) and discovered that as I sharpen the shape of the edge itself goes wonky - I wonder what causes that? I'm suspecting the steel because it went wonky post-sharpening the first time around at the exact same spot, and I presumed it was a manufacturing fault on the edge to begin with.

Now my question is - what sort of sharpness should I be looking for? I can now shave hair if I put the blade at an obtuse enough angle, but push cutting paper still eludes me. These tests seem a bit banal though, but all my knives will go through onions so I don't know how else to differentiate..

Thanks for starting this thread. I started getting into this about 6 months ago and have had many of the same issues as you. Reading everyone's responses to you questions has been really helpful. I have a miyabi artisan 8" chef as my main knife, and I found several very very dull henckel four stars that I've practiced on. I've had exactly the same issue with being able to get the knives sharp, but not quite to the shaving/push cutting paper level. I've also had a similar issues of getting better results near the heel than near the tip, and having a section of the blade wear down unevenly. I dont think I have enough experience offer much beyond what the more experienced members have offered, but for what its worth - when I went slow and watched carefully it seemed like a concavity in my stone may be causing the raised edge portion at the side of the stone to cause uneven sharpening. I ordered a stone flattener to see if that helps.

 

[GeneH]

OP, just want to clear something which might me understated. When peolple say to deburr on cork, felt or fabric etc. You do so only when you can't feel a burr anymore with your fingers, otherwise you will just mess the apex and wonder why these deburring techniques don't work...

I always wondered how deburring by ripping it off with cork could possibly work so never did. Now I know. Heh. <lightbulb>

 

[Colorado_cutter]

I think you're well on your way- a cheap carbon cleaver is a great practice knife. As others have said, get some way to flatten your stone- I use drywall screen on a piece of lucite plastic. Just draw a grid of X marks on the stone with a pencil and lightly grind, changing grip and orientation from time to time, until the X marks are gone. Also as others have said, the sharpie trick is your friend- just put a thin mark at the edge and make sure you're hitting it all along the edge as you sharpen. I'd suggest sticking with the cleaver and the 1k stone only at this point. I find it helpful to make little wooden wedges of the desire angle (for me 15 degrees). You can place them on the stone with the knife on top (edge on stone, side of blade on wedge) to get an idea of what your desire angle looks like with the knife on the stone. Then pull the wedge out and sharpen at that angle. Chase the burr, lighter and lighter strokes, deburr on cork. Other ways work, too, of course, but the problem right now isn't what you're using, it is how.

At this point, I wouldn't worry that the edge of your cleaver has some inconsistencies. Chalk it up to manufacturing tolerances and just sharpen normally on your 1k stone.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some days, sharpening just doesn't seem to work. Maybe you don't remove the burr fully, or maybe you're not paying enough attention, or maybe something else, but whatever you do, firm or light pressure, the blade doesn't seem to get sharp. That's a good time to put up the stone. The next time you sharpen, the stars may align and you get a wicked good edge. I've been sharpening on stones for about five years, and I still have "off" days.

How do you know when you've gotten it sharp? I like this video for some hints:
[video=youtube;xRPrswhMdAc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRPrswhMdAc[/video]

I keep an Economist magazine around for edge testing- thin, slick glossy paper. Sharp will push-cut (no slicing motion) at any point on the edge. Really sharp will allow you to roll the paper into a tube and slice ellipses off of the tube. Practically, though, a ripe tomato is a good test, too.

 

[Benuser]

After all these excellent answers, just a few remarks.
If your Sab is stainless, treat it as any German stainless. JIS 400 and deburring on the green side of a ScotchBrite sponge. No polishing, it won't hold.
If it's a carbon one, go for 6k.
A grooved steel creates a burr, more exactly a wire-edge. That's why the result won't hold either.