Best steel for a kitchen knife blade?

[Chef Doom]

I recommend that you be a little less argumentative around here. Congrats on your success.

People who are loud and aggressive loose credibility.

Hoss

You call it loud and agressive, I call it spicing things up a little

 

[inferno]

Just wanted to add my empirical experience with AEBL from Robin Dalman and Devin Thomas. I own multiple Gyuto's from both and I've never seen a chip on either one, their a pleasure to sharpen and have decent edge retention.

Pennman ask yourself this, if one of the greatest metallurgist and knife pioneers of our generation "Devin Thomas" can choose any steel to work with, why would he choose AEBL if its an inferior metal for knives? Not only that, his PHD son, self professed Steel Geek thinks is good for kitchen knives, doesn't that also make you question your assumptions?

I've been seriously into knives for a long time and have nearly every flavor (or have tried them) and AEBL has never stained, chipped or lost the edge prematurely.

Lastly, either English is not your primary language or you might want to have someone edit your remarks cause they just rub us the wrong way.

Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing. I dont really like the powdered "super steels" that much, I dont think they bring anything extra to table compared to whats already out there, not that much at least. For example, most people love R2, I think its nothing special. Its good but nothing really special imo.

And even if "god himself" told me that R2 is the absolutely bestest steel in the entire universe I wouldn't give a F about that. Because for me it isn't.

People choose steel for all kinds of different reasons. This is why there are several different steels to choose from in this world.
There is no better or worse, there is just different steels with different heat treatments which results in different properties. All steels are compromises. And if this is surprise to people here maybe you should read a book or 2 about this subject. You simply choose what compromises you want to deal with.


a bit OT:
At work i have about 6-7 Mora type knives in rotation. Some are stainless 12c27 and some are carbon 1095/100C. They all get sufficiently sharp, they all chip out pretty much the same, and realistically they all lose sharpness at about the same pace, BUT the 100C ones sharpen up after my abuse about 10 times faster. The performance is about as equal as it can get for my particular use, the time spent sharpening them is not. Basically the SS is not worth the time invested. Since its not actually better at anything.
(However I don't do much actual cutting with my knives at work though. Mostly I scrape rust/dirt/grease/oil/other crap from hardened steel machines and similar. And pry stuff open.)

I feel the same about kitchen knife steel. If the steel is not doing anything noticeably "better" than some lower grade that's on a cheaper knife, then whats the point?? I don't buy my knives only for performance though (i can sharpen them every day if i want to). I buy them because they look nice! And then it doesn't really matter.

For me there is no "best steel ever used". But blue 2 is a good compromise I think.

 

[Chef Doom]

That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.

You dare talk bad about Hitachi Shirogami Steel?

BURN THIS HERETIC AT THE STAKE TO CLEANSE HIS TATTERED SOUL!

 

[Chef Doom]

Until someone with a PhD in metallurgy posts in this thread about AEB-L I'm not ready to make any conclusions. Bonus points if his father and brother are some of the most in demand knife makers.

If you are not going to come to random conclusions then do not comment. Just stay silent with a bag of cancer butter popcorn.

 

[pennman]

What are these monstrosities? [emoji44]

Here is another one for your enjoyment!

 

[Chef Doom]

Touche good sir, touche.

 

[Chef Doom]

if one of the greatest metallurgist and knife pioneers of our generation "Devin Thomas" can choose any steel to work with, why would he choose AEBL if its an inferior metal for knives?

Whoa whoa whoa, hold up now. I know you are star struck, but lets not make wild statements and crazy unsubstantiated claims. If you are going to make these claims, I'm going to need some proof.

 

[Dan P.]

Stephen, (@pennman) I have to ask; Do you offer a sharpening service for your knives? And, if so, do you use the same set of sharpening stones for the culinary knives as for the corpse knives? Honest question.

 

[inferno]

its all just meat isn't it??

 

[pennman]

Stephen, (@pennman) I have to ask; Do you offer a sharpening service for your knives? And, if so, do you use the same set of sharpening stones for the culinary knives as for the corpse knives? Honest question.

Yes I do. I have two different sets of stones and strops. But I have similar stones in each set. I’m well aware of cross contamination.

 

[pennman]

its all just meat isn't it??

...and fat and ligament and tendon and organs and cartilage and brains

 

[Dan P.]

Yes I do. I have two different sets of stones and strops. But I have similar stones in each set. I’m well aware of cross contamination.

Which set do you use for the circumcision knives?

 

[pennman]

Which set do you use for the circumcision knives?

I haven’t sharpened them for anyone else.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing. I dont really like the powdered "super steels" that much, I dont think they bring anything extra to table compared to whats already out there, not that much at least. For example, most people love R2, I think its nothing special. Its good but nothing really special imo.

And even if "god himself" told me that R2 is the absolutely bestest steel in the entire universe I wouldn't give a F about that. Because for me it isn't.

People choose steel for all kinds of different reasons. This is why there are several different steels to choose from in this world.
There is no better or worse, there is just different steels with different heat treatments which results in different properties. All steels are compromises. And if this is surprise to people here maybe you should read a book or 2 about this subject. You simply choose what compromises you want to deal with.

I feel the same about kitchen knife steel. If the steel is not doing anything noticeably "better" than some lower grade that's on a cheaper knife, then whats the point?? I don't buy my knives only for performance though (i can sharpen them every day if i want to). I buy them because they look nice! And then it doesn't really matter.

For me there is no "best steel ever used". But blue 2 is a good compromise I think.

Thanks inferno but I didn't say that AEBL was the BEST knife steel, just providing my input as an actual user of it. You admittedly say you buy them based on how they look? I think that says enough. We have a whole thread on knives that are designed around aesthetic, its called "The ugly knife thread" enjoy.

 

[inferno]

Thanks inferno but I didn't say that AEBL was the BEST knife steel, just providing my input as an actual user of it. You admittedly say you buy them based on how they look? I think that says enough. We have a whole thread on knives that are designed around aesthetic, its called "The ugly knife thread" enjoy.

Maybe you should step down from your ivory tower?
I think you are reading too much into it. I mean why buy ugly blades when i can buy nice looking ones. and I have like 15 stones at home. so I can get them all to the same sharpness and I can do that every day if i want to. Sure i like performance. But I can make them all perform similar. its a non issue for me really.

I currently have 4 forged r2 blades, 1 aus8, 1 aus 8 cryoed, 3 blue 2, 1 blue super, 2 aus6, 1 vg10, 1 1.4116/x50crmov15 or whatever the f its called.

I did a test here at home with a mac cryoed aus 8 and a kurosaki r2. took these to 8k on a shapton melon super. cut some cardboard boxes up and the difference between these steel in edge holding is like 10-15% in reality. this was a torture test. since i ran them to the ground pretty much. i wanted to really see HOW they dulled.

So one of the crappiest regarded steels the dreaded aus 8 performs similar to one of the very top ones, r2/sg2. go figure. I was 0,000% surprised though. I actually thought it would end like it did. and it did. since I have done similar tests before. They just dull in a different way, thats all. you like microchips or rounding off to fix?

So no I dont buy blades on looks alone but hey when its all the same crap more or less, i get the sexy ones.

 

[milkbaby]

There's a simple way to settle this difference of opinion. All Stephan (pennman) needs to do is send one of the AEB-L knives that are the basis of his conclusions about the steel to an unbiased and open-minded member of the Forum who will examine it before and after hard use and see if Stephan's conclusions are warranted.

I think a passaround would be great. It's always fun to try different knives.

I do feel that perhaps Stephen's experiences are being poopoo'd by the forumites a bit. Perhaps the type of edge geometry that he likes isn't compatible with the heat treatment that Peter's produces on AEB-L.

Obviously we have one of the world's foremost experts on AEB-L used as cutlery steel in the form of Hoss/Devin here. I'm sure he could answer in detail why heat treatment for cutlery is not as simple as following manufacturer's protocol. How the steel is processed and treated can affect it's performance (wear resistance, edge stability, etc). For example, one of Larrin's articles was about retained austenite, which probably the majority of knifemakers would say they don't want because it lowers the overall max hardness ignoring that it may offer another benefit in the form of greater toughness (please correct me if I'm misremembering the article).

This is not to say Peter's HT is substandard, but perhaps it's an HT suited best for the majority of knives they receive to be treated, could be EDC and hunters that have different geometry than kitchen cutlery? I'm just guessing, have no real idea.

 

[inferno]

or you could just as well just polish and etch the blade and put it under a microscope or send it out to larrin or science of sharp and they SEM it and then we'll know whats up.

But it could be that this person just dont like the steel?? so what??

there are like 7 billion people on this planet and all of them have their own opinion on everything. and guess what, its their own opinion of things that is the most important in their lives. not other peoples opinions.

Regarding aeb-l/13c26 i think the makers give you all the info you need and also what the tradeoffs are when HTing this steel pretty well in their data sheets. at least sandvik did in the past.

 

[milkbaby]

Regarding aeb-l/13c26 i think the makers give you all the info you need and also what the tradeoffs are when HTing this steel pretty well in their data sheets. at least sandvik did in the past.

I agree with your points except this one. There is batch to batch variation in steels, a very detail oriented maker will test their heat treat on each new batch and dial it in because they are not guaranteed to give the same results. That's also why some makers will stock up on a bunch of the same steel at once so they don't have to do this testing everytime they get a new batch of the same steel.

Look at 52100, the "standard" manufacturer HT is not optimized for cutlery, this has been seen by other makers.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Some poeple just dont like aeb-l, its simple as that. Just because other people like something doesn't mean everybody has to like the same thing

I think the discurrion is not about making people like aeb-l, but about the reasons why it is supposedly crap, like, for instance, lack of toughness. It makes me wonder that maybe there is something done differently in pennman's process (ht, geometry etc) that would make the blade chippier.

 

[inferno]

I agree with your points except this one. There is batch to batch variation in steels, a very detail oriented maker will test their heat treat on each new batch and dial it in because they are not guaranteed to give the same results. That's also why some makers will stock up on a bunch of the same steel at once so they don't have to do this testing everytime they get a new batch of the same steel.

Look at 52100, the "standard" manufacturer HT is not optimized for cutlery, this has been seen by other makers.

there is no batch variation with sandvik or uddeholm and there hasn't been since the 1600's or so.
this is how they make money. you always get the exact same product.
if you look at these guys datasheets it says like 0,63% and that means 0,63% not 0,5-0,7 its 0,63% each and every time.

 

[inferno]

I think the discurrion is not about making people like aeb-l, but about the reasons why it is supposedly crap, like, for instance, lack of toughness. It makes me wonder that maybe there is something done differently in pennman's process (ht, geometry etc) that would make the blade chippier.

I dont think its crap but I also dont think its all that good either, its surpassed by aus8 for example. one of the cheapest japanese steels.

when i got internet connextion in like 2002 or 3 or so i quickly learned that everything that people write on the net is not completely factual. some is exagerated (i dont know how to spell this word obviously) and some is held back. and somewhere inbetween is the truth.

nothing you read on tha mighty intarwebz is completely true.

surprise surprise! you read it first here!

 

[inferno]

milkbaby what I meant to say is that they sell a "product" and not a standard, 52100 is standard, and eveyone can make it, its between "this and that" percentage. aeb-l and 13c26 are very specific products. there is no variation in these. should be close to 0 at least. I'm swedish and If I couldn't weigh sh1t and then put it in a smelter and then calculate the resulting % then I would probably have to kill myself. this is not rocket science.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I dont think its crap but I also dont think its all that good either, its surpassed by aus8 for example. one of the cheapest japanese steels.

when i got internet connextion in like 2002 or 3 or so i quickly learned that everything that people write on the net is not completely factual. some is exagerated (i dont know how to spell this word obviously) and some is held back. and somewhere inbetween is the truth.

nothing you read on tha mighty intarwebz is completely true.

surprise surprise! you read it first here!

You are entitled to dislike or even to think it's crap, but when you say it's crap at least partly because it lacks toughness, that explanation will be disputed.

Not sure why you talk about the fact that not everything people write on the net is not completely factual (which i agree). As said before, i've been using a couple of aeb-l gyutos for some years and never had a chippng problem with any of those. What's the net got to do with this?

 

[DevinT]

there is no batch variation with sandvik or uddeholm and there hasn't been since the 1600's or so.
this is how they make money. you always get the exact same product.
if you look at these guys datasheets it says like 0,63% and that means 0,63% not 0,5-0,7 its 0,63% each and every time.

The carbon content of aebl ranges from .65-.70 and will affect the hardening. I have seen this from 30 years of chem certs on the material I’ve purchased. Not all steel labeled aebl is made by uddeholm. I’ve seen knock-offs that were not as good.

Custom heat treating in a small shop is better than large batch heat treating when you know what you are doing. The steel heats up faster, cools down faster, goes into the cryo faster, cheaper to do things like pre-queching, stress relieving, adapting to different batches etc. Also, doing your own test coupons will teach you a lot about heat treating and steel behavior.

Hoss

 

[inferno]

You are entitled to dislike or even to think it's crap, but when you say it's crap at least partly because it lacks toughness, that explanation will be disputed.
Not sure why you talk about the fact that not everything people write on the net is not completely factual (which i agree). As said before, i've been using a couple of aeb-l gyutos for some years and never had a chippng problem with any of those. What's the net got to do with this?

I think you are misenterpreting me. I have no axe to grind with aeb-l I think its good solid steel, much better than the specs reveal just by looking at the numbers. but its just not for me. what can i say. if i wanted a steel that dull inm the mode of "rounding off" i would get aus8 instead. it has grainrefiner V in low amounts, it has toughener Ni 0,5%, a bit of Mo for cabides (and secondary hardening if any). and its low enough C to make it really tough. whats not to like here?

this is a step up from 13c26/aeb-l if you ask me. a whole step. from aus8 to r2 its maybe a half step. they just dull in a different way. but they still dull about the same.

i am in no way employed or payed by mac knives. I just think this way.
i also think this: just because steel x has a hrc of Y doesn't mean jack sh1t if you dont know exactly what they did to it.
could be sh1t, could be good, still the same hrc!

 

[inferno]

The carbon content of aebl ranges from .65-.70 and will affect the hardening. I have seen this from 30 years of chem certs on the material I’ve purchased. Not all steel labeled aebl is made by uddeholm. I’ve seen knock-offs that were not as good.

Custom heat treating in a small shop is better than large batch heat treating when you know what you are doing. The steel heats up faster, cools down faster, goes into the cryo faster, cheaper to do things like pre-queching, stress relieving, adapting to different batches etc. Also, doing your own test coupons will teach you a lot about heat treating and steel behavior.

Hoss

from what i understand you can only do 1 or at most 2 at a time to get the ultimate (aim) HT, not 10 or 20pc.
and we all know it takes time to process the blades and they dont really wanna stay in there for another 10-15 minutes when done. and this has been known for at least 50-80 years. I read my last book about steel like 10 years ago and it was from the 60ies. and it was totally current somehow!! go figure.

 

[comet_sharp]

AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.

Aebl is good stuff, so are its Sandvik cousins
If you find it chippy work on your HT,

I have a great deal of respect for you and the information on your website. I learn quite a bit. But in the real world, my daily AEBL knives I use and have provided to professional chefs, AEBL is crap. Doesn’t hold an edge through one autopsy, requires sharpening every 45 -60 min, and will look like a hacksaw blade after one service in a pro kitchen. All cutting was done on poly boards by me and professional chefs. The only AEBL blades that performed well were ones where the chef habitually used a chef steel throughout service and kept the blade sharp continually. Also blades did well in the hands of the extremely casual user. But they liked knives from Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

I won’t use it. I won’t buy knives made with it. I and multiple other excellent knife makers won’t use it. I know Devin Thomas uses it and people like it.

I’m sure you have plenty of graphs, charts, and experimental observations about how I’m wrong, but my experience and observation from my knives and those of my chefs is waaaay Different.

When I switched from AEBL to XHP, my steel costs doubled, but I did not change my prices to my customers. I just didn’t want to put out any more knives in what I felt was mediocre steel.

And nothing about what I have said with regard to AEBL use in knives is my opinion about using AEBL for straight razors, it’s intended market.

Correct. My experience is different than others’ HERE. But it is not unique.

And I certainly do place wear resistance as the most important property of steel for chef knives. That’s why aogami super is better kitchen cutlery steel than white #1. Cruwear better than CPM 154CM. S110V better than ZDP-189.

Eh, thats all opinion. I'll take shiro 1 over AS any day of the week. I'll also take aebl over cpm154 though as it sharpens better and is tougher.
-Trey

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

AEBL is crap for chef knives. Avoid it at all costs. It’s for straight razors. Chippy, poor edge retention, will pit and rust. It’s stain resistant. Not stainless. Go with CPM 154CM or XHP.

What are you talking about? Are you really talking about AEB-L or some other steel?

AEB-L is some of the best steel for kitchen knives. It has some the best toughness among stainless steels, gets razor sharp with relatively little effort, and offers reasonably good edge holding. When properly heat treated, it can obtain hardness 61.5-62RC. I have never had AEB-L chip on me and I HT in the hardness mentioned. In an annealed condition it will rust, but not after you heat treat it.

I am not saying it is the best stainless out there, but by the cost/benefits ratio, it's one of the best. It gets up to 30 days of use between sharpening in a pro kitchen (with after-shift stropping on 1M). Compare it to a white steel.

If not tempered properly, any steel will chip or even break. I have heard from forum members that some makers aim for highest hardness in AEB-L and the blades had chipping edges, but this has nothing to do with the steel, but rather with the heat treatment.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Marko, Pennman doesn’t do any of his own HT. He does produce some very sharp conjecture though. Coming into our house and poo poo everyone’s AEBL. what a beaut

 

[Gregmega]

Aebl is good stuff, so are its Sandvik cousins
If you find it chippy work on your HT,



Eh, thats all opinion. I'll take shiro 1 over AS any day of the week. I'll also take aebl over cpm154 though as it sharpens better and is tougher.
-Trey

B2 & AS is for home cooks.