Can 70/30 bevel Japanese knives be honed/re-aligned/sharpened quickly without wet stones?

[alfonz1986]

I have a Misono 440 Gyuto 210mm (70/30 bevel) - a beautiful knife to cut with when sharp...

It's my first proper knife, so I bought Suehiro Cerax wet stones #1000 / #3000 and followed the instructional Korin video how to sharpen a 70/30 knife. After about 30 mins of sharpening on #1000 and then #3000, the knife is able to slice 0.2mm of skin off the edge of a wet tomato... GREAT

After around 1 - 2 weeks of home use (cooking only dinner really, cutting meat and vegetables) I would say it loses its sharpness somewhat and I can maybe cut the tomato in the centre, but not the skin off the edge as previously. After a month or two without using the wet stone, the knife can barely cut a wet tomato...

FIRST QUESTION: Is the only way to make this 70/30 knife sharp (or re-aligned) again using a wet stone (somewhat slow and laborious)? I believe the knife is still sharp and the blade needs perhaps only realigned...

SECOND QUESTION: When you see a classic pro chef like Gordon Ramsay get ready to cook they "hone" their knife using a honing rod and it takes seconds. I assume he's probably using a german knife with 50/50 bevel, as I understand a 70/30 bevel can't be honed from reading online? However, I've seen multiple other professional chefs commenting online at places like JCK that "the Misono 440 is the best knife I've ever used in the restaurant - so sharp, etc". Is it really the case that these pro chefs each night before service in the restaurant get out their wet stones and spend 30 mins sharpening their Misono knives before prepping? Whereas Gordon Ramsay can align the blade on his german knife in 30 seconds with his honing rod? If the answer is yes, this is a major design flaw in the 70/30 bevel it seems.

I work fairly long hours and have a family, so as much as I enjoy carefully sharpening the knife on the wet stones every once in a while, it's not something I will have time to do every week or two....

Finally, someone may comment that perhaps I used the wrong sharpening angle on the wet stone and and the knife is consequently becoming dull artificially quickly due to an angle too low or too high. I initially thought the same, so have tried using initially a very low angle of sharpening (perhaps 10deg?) and more recently a higher sharpening angle at perhaps 20-25deg. I didn't see a particular improvement in how long the knife stays sharp with either angle. But in any case, the question remains the same - are wet stones the only option with 70/30 to get it nice and sharp again?

I await to hear from the masters.

Many thanks,

Alec

 

[Infrared]

Hello,

Usually, you want to sharpen on your lower grit first, then move on to your finer stone. In this case, start off with the cerax 1000 and then move to the 3000. Sharpening this way should be faster and lead to a sharper knife.

Two weeks of use without a touchup seems about right.

You can hone with a ceramic rod. You can also do a a touchup on your stone (wet or dry). It should take less than a minute in either case. Just follow the original angles and you will be fine. Your Misono should stay sharp for several months with this routine.

 

[alfonz1986]

Hello,

Usually, you want to sharpen on your lower grit first, then move on to your finer stone. In this case, start off with the cerax 1000 and then move to the 3000. Sharpening this way should be faster and lead to a sharper knife.

Two weeks of use without a touchup seems about right.

You can hone with a ceramic rod. You can also do a a touchup on your stone (wet or dry). It should take less than a minute in either case. Just follow the original angles and you will be fine. Your Misono should stay sharp for several months with this routine.

Thanks. It was a typo (now corrected), of course it was the coarser 1000 first and then 3000 to finish didn't know you could use a ceramic honing rod.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

You can absolutely hone a knife quickly on a whetstone using light pressure.

 

[Benuser]

A few remarks. Factory edges often are weak, and the Misono ones are overly convexed. There's certainly no reason to increase sharpening angles: it won't help with the edge retention, on the contrary.
Most recent Misonos I've seen could use some serious thinning behind the edge. It will improve both performance and edge retention, as less force is required to go through dense food and the contact with the board won't be that hard. To make thinning realistic and remove the new edge you have put on it I would use a coarse stone, say a Shapton Glass 320.
The idea of asymmetry is to enhance food release by having the edge off-centered to the left. You want the right bevel to be in line with the right face and form a continuous arc.
The convex right bevel will usually end at 10-12°. On the left side, you may for the time being just deburr at some 15-18°. As you have put a very different edge on it, check your progress with a permanent marker and a loupe to see where steel got abraded — and, more important, where not. You may want a completely clean bevel before flipping sides and working on the other one.
You may use a very smooth or polished steel rod if you do so very gently and respect the asymmetric configuration and the resulting different sharpening angles on both sides. The rods I have in mind are the Dickoron Micro and Polish. Maintaining with a few edge leading strokes on your finest stone as if you were deburring is another serious option to consider. By touching up on a stone you may postpone a full sharpening for a lot of time.
About time: something is going quite wrong if you need half an hour to restore an edge after two weeks of home use. Touching up requires two minutes.
To give an idea of the Misono geometry here a very thick yo-deba from their carbon series. I hope you see what I mean by aiming for a right bevel in line with the right face (left on the picture), and an off-centered edge:

 

[alfonz1986]

A few remarks. Factory edges often are weak, and the Misono ones are overly convexed. There's certainly no reason to increase sharpening angles: it won't help with the edge retention, on the contrary.
Most recent Misonos I've seen could use some serious thinning behind the edge. It will improve both performance and edge retention, as less force is required to go through dense food and the contact with the board won't be that hard. To make thinning realistic and remove the new edge you have put on it I would use a coarse stone, say a Shapton Glass 320.
The idea of asymmetry is to enhance food release by having the edge off-centered to the left. You want the right bevel to be in line with the right face and form a continuous arc.
The convex right bevel will usually end at 10-12°. On the left side, you may for the time being just deburr at some 15-18°. As you have put a very different edge on it, check your progress with a permanent marker and a loupe to see where steel got abraded — and, more important, where not. You may want a completely clean bevel before flipping sides and working on the other one.
You may use a very smooth or polished steel rod if you do so very gently and respect the asymmetric configuration and the resulting different sharpening angles on both sides. The rods I have in mind are the Dickoron Micro and Polish. Maintaining with a few edge leading strokes on your finest stone as if you were deburring is another serious option to consider. By touching up on a stone you may postpone a full sharpening for a lot of time.
About time: something is going quite wrong if you need half an hour to restore an edge after two weeks of home use. Touching up requires two minutes.
To give an idea of the Misono geometry here a very thick yo-deba from their carbon series. I hope you see what I mean by aiming for a right bevel in line with the right face (left on the picture), and an off-centered edge:
View attachment 211575

Thanks for the reply!

Perhap's I've slightly altered the edges on the blade with a higher sharpening angle, but the ratio of difference in bevel length remains near identical (i.e. longer bevel on right side and short bevel on left). I will try next time with the marker pen to see where I'm removing steel on the stone and potentially look at lowering the sharpening angle again.

The 30mins I was referring to was the full process of resharpening - i.e. soak the stone for a couple of mins, sharpen with #1000 until burr present on right side, flip and same on left side, then repeat on #3000, cleaning, testing, etc. I would do this process after not sharpening or touching up the blade after a couple of months when it seemed very dull. With regular shorter touchups perhaps even on a dry wet stone #3000, this could be the solution I'm looking for to retain the edge.

The last time I sharpened it about a week ago I put it straight on the #3000 and was able to get a burr (and remove it) on both sides within about 15mins. Then it was pretty damn sharp after, back to cutting skin off edge of tomatoes again

I have used the knife on occasion to finely chop pistachios, where it contacts the wooden board with some force repeatedly. Perhaps chopping foods like this have accelerated the dulling of the blade.

-Alec