Deciding between two knives - thoughts on R2 vs BS2

[discomute]

Hi everyone, I have a set of Global knives. My favourite knife is a 14cm vegetable GS5 (5.5 inches) but I don't like the handle. I primarily use it for cutting up fruit and vegetables which is most of my kitchen work. It is big enough and solid enough to do my regular (potato, sweet potato, onion, carrots, mushrooms, capsicum) and fine enough when I need to chop finely. It is a milestone birthday coming up and I have asked for a new knife.

Having looked around I wanted a smaller Kiritsuke than the standard 20cm/7.8 inch. I have a 20cm/7.8 inch Global knife and I find it too big for most of my kitchen work - except squash and dicing up my boneless roasts. My preference is to buy from Australia though it is not a necessity. I would also prefer a normal or thicker width as I don't like the idea of razor thin knives.

Initially I found this and loved it:
15.5cm Kiritsuke (6.1 inches)
However after reading about whetstone sharpening (which I will have to learn as I use an electric for my globals) I am concerned that a 62-65 HRC is excessive for a beginner and R2 would be difficult to sharpen for someone who still needs to learn (although the product information says sharpening isn't too bad).

I found an alternative in
170mm Kiritsuke (6.7 inches)
This is even thicker and at 61-62 HRC still very hard. However my understanding is that BS2 is very easy to sharpen. However everything I read says that it will rust a bit... what?!? I cannot find detailed information about care but I absolutely hate rust, I hate eating off bbq plates that have it, and I just couldn't bear to see any rust on my expensive knife!

Any contributions anyone has to the two knives I would appreciate but primarily:
- am I worrying too much about sharpening and brittleness of R2?
- am I worrying too much about rust for BS2 and is there an easy way to avoid it or remove it?

Thanks again


edit: I chop on plastic chopping boards. Any sharpening stone recommendations would be handy too.

 

[blokey]

I think those sources will help you better understand steel choices


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/Blue #2 is not a stainless steel and without care it will rust, and depends on where you live, what you cook style, carbon steel can be either smooth sailing or problematic. Blue#2 at 61 will likely have lot less edge retention than SG2/R2 steel, not because of the hardness but rather it is the nature of low alloy compare to high alloy powder metal. I'm not familiar with pricing in Aus but these 2 seems not the best deal for your money, I would recommend these instead.
SKD is semi-stainless, wipe dry after cutting and there's no problem of any rust, and it is easy to sharpen compare to SG2, Yoshikane is highly regarded in the forum, they make some of the best knife in Japan.
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...nka-170mm-with-hatsukokoro-初心-kanji-engravingTadafusa is a solid option, more on the thick and robust side, they are stainless cladded Blue #2
https://www.chefs-edge.com.au/produ...shiji-bunka-170mm?_pos=8&_sid=04239c56b&_ss=rUnless you abusolutely want a Bunka/ short Kiritsuke I'd get a Sukenari santoku, these are stainless but easy to sharpen, very solid grind, not too fragile and will cut wonderfully.
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-190mm-7-4-inch-d-shaped-magnolia-wood-handle

 

[blokey]

Btw the description on your second link seems like a huge red flag to oversale a knife.

"Kanetsune is located at Seki City, the capital of the Orient (lol what Seki is not even the capital of it's own prefecture) and is known to be the City of Blades. The underground method in Japanese sword-making called “Seki-den” which started some 800 years back has been handed down to this present day. (Not relevant to kitchen knife making, Seki is more known for factory made knives, not that is a bad thing tho) One of Japan’s supreme master craftsmen, Kanetsune Seki was able to conserve this method and employ it in all of his knives. (Kanetsune is a brand not a person)"

 

[superworrier]

Btw the description on your second link seems like a huge red flag to oversale a knife.

"Kanetsune is located at Seki City, the capital of the Orient (lol what Seki is not even the capital of it's own prefecture) and is known to be the City of Blades. The underground method in Japanese sword-making called “Seki-den” which started some 800 years back has been handed down to this present day. (Not relevant to kitchen knife making, Seki is more known for factory made knives, not that is a bad thing tho) One of Japan’s supreme master craftsmen, Kanetsune Seki was able to conserve this method and employ it in all of his knives. (Kanetsune is a brand not a person)"

The brand is named after the person

 

[blokey]

The brand is named after the person

Yeah, like Bob Kramer is a person but what you buy is a sub-brand of Zwilling. (Unless you actually have 5 figures to spend on a single one)

 

[discomute]

Thank you to everyone especially blokey. In live in Darwin where its humid all the time and I'm close to the ocean so I am happy to go stainless. I also had not heard the term "Bunka" which explains why it was difficult to find smaller kiritsuke's.

I absolutely love the look of the Yoshikane I think that is an instant winner.
Any thoughts on the handle? I like the look of the teak, is there any functional reason I should pay more for ebony & spacers?

 

[blokey]

Thank you to everyone especially blokey. In live in Darwin where its humid all the time and I'm close to the ocean so I am happy to go stainless. I also had not heard the term "Bunka" which explains why it was difficult to find smaller kiritsuke's.

I absolutely love the look of the Yoshikane I think that is an instant winner.
Any thoughts on the handle? I like the look of the teak, is there any functional reason I should pay more for ebony & spacers?

Not really any function reasons, more of an aesthetic. For Yoshikane one thing to note is while it is a sturdy knife, the factory edge to quite aggressive, if you can you should add your own edge. (Not sure if Knives and Stone can do this, but you can ask them to add a micro-bevel before shipping) Carbon steel and semi-stainless will discolor overtime, usually blue, brownish or grey, those aren't rust but rather protect the knife from rust so don't worry about them.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-blue-a-patina-thread.299/page-78#post-934897

 

[captaincaed]

It's a very thin knife behind the edge, and it may require more gentle techniques than you're used to. That said, they're an absolute favorite of mine. But be aware it's not a beater, it's an oversized scalpel. Be very careful not to twist it cutting squash. It can snap.

The sukenari might be a better first knife honestly. More forgiving and still a great cutter. But if the Yoshikane calls to you...

For stones, ask the retailer you get the knife from about an inexpensive 3000-4000 grit stone for touch ups. They'll help bring a sharp edge back, won't be too aggressive, and won't take too long to use either.

 

[drrayeye]

You have a set of Globals that suit you well--and you know how to maintain. Why do you want to buy an expensive outlier that requires you to relearn everything?

 

[blokey]

You have a set of Globals that suit you well--and you know how to maintain. SWhy do you want to buy an expensive outlier that requires you to relearn everything?

Maybe people want to try better things? That's the entire topic of this forum.

 

[drrayeye]

"Different" and "better" are not the same--that depends on the user.

 

[discomute]

It's a very thin knife behind the edge, and it may require more gentle techniques than you're used to. That said, they're an absolute favorite of mine. But be aware it's not a beater, it's an oversized scalpel. Be very careful not to twist it cutting squash. It can snap.

The sukenari might be a better first knife honestly. More forgiving and still a great cutter. But if the Yoshikane calls to you...

For stones, ask the retailer you get the knife from about an inexpensive 3000-4000 grit stone for touch ups. They'll help bring a sharp edge back, won't be too aggressive, and won't take too long to use either.

I wouldn't use it for cutting squash, depending on the type of squash I use either my 20cm chefs knife or my heavy duty cleaver that I got for free in a supermarket promotion. Nothing better than something that is huge and free for hacking into giant squashes or bone. Probably the biggest thing I would use for the bunka would be sweet potato.

The sukenari is too big, even 170mm is pushing it. I find the 200mm one difficult to use for 80% of what I do. Maybe its just me, I know for most people that isn't a large knife. But the 140mm is much easier for me. Yes I could probably find another sukenari, but yes the yoshikane bunka calls to me.

Interesting about a 3000-4000 grit stone - I have watched a few videos and I thought I would need two (say a 1000 and a 4000). Do you think given its natural hardness if I regularly sharpen (I usually sharpen each 3 months) I could get away with a single 3000-4000?

You have a set of Globals that suit you well--and you know how to maintain. SWhy do you want to buy an expensive outlier that requires you to relearn everything?

Its a reasonable question. Its my 40th and my family want to get me something fitting that will last. I had a few ideas but for various reasons (I presume you're not interested in) they don't quite work for me right now. One idea I had was a ceramic coated cast iron pot that I always see chefs use on YT. I currently use a stainless steel pot and absolutely love it. (My favourite cooking is low & slow so I use it for tagines, chilli, ragu, etc.)

When I looked into ceramic coated cast iron I realised it did not suit my purposes, and besides, I just love my SS pot I've used for 20 years that is still good as new. It made me want to have a knife (or knives) like that. And like I said, I although the 14cm vegetable global knife my go-to, I do not like the handle on it.

I take your point about the expense, it's not something I'd buy for my self, but I have to ask for something. My family don't want to give me cash.

 

[Delat]

I’m a huge Yoshikane fan and think it’ll be a big step up from your Globals. As @captaincaed said, Yoshis are pretty thin towards the edge. Not the thinnest ever, but they are definitely not midweights. It will definitely give you a “wow” feeling the first time you use it, though. I gave my daughter a Yoshi santoku for Christmas, in fact.

Along the same vein, Yu Kurosaki has a very similar cutting feel to Yoshikane (in my experience), but somehow feels a bit heavier and more solid despite weighing about the same. Kurosaki is concave vs Yoshi convex, if that matters at all. They’re both excellent knives.

Counter-intuitively, thin knives do great in hard produce like squash. They’re thinner, so they don’t have to force the produce apart as much. Just be sure to have good technique - cut straight down, no twisting - and you’ll be fine.

 

[drrayeye]

I wouldn't use it for cutting squash, depending on the type of squash I use either my 20cm chefs knife or my heavy duty cleaver that I got for free in a supermarket promotion. Nothing better than something that is huge and free for hacking into giant squashes or bone. Probably the biggest thing I would use for the bunka would be sweet potato.

The sukenari is too big, even 170mm is pushing it. I find the 200mm one difficult to use for 80% of what I do. Maybe its just me, I know for most people that isn't a large knife. But the 140mm is much easier for me. Yes I could probably find another sukenari, but yes the yoshikane bunka calls to me.

Interesting about a 3000-4000 grit stone - I have watched a few videos and I thought I would need two (say a 1000 and a 4000). Do you think given its natural hardness if I regularly sharpen (I usually sharpen each 3 months) I could get away with a single 3000-4000?



Its a reasonable question. Its my 40th and my family want to get me something fitting that will last. I had a few ideas but for various reasons (I presume you're not interested in) they don't quite work for me right now. One idea I had was a ceramic coated cast iron pot that I always see chefs use on YT. I currently use a stainless steel pot and absolutely love it. (My favourite cooking is low & slow so I use it for tagines, chilli, ragu, etc.)

When I looked into ceramic coated cast iron I realised it did not suit my purposes, and besides, I just love my SS pot I've used for 20 years that is still good as new. It made me want to have a knife (or knives) like that. And like I said, I although the 14cm vegetable global knife my go-to, I do not like the handle on it.

I take your point about the expense, it's not something I'd buy for my self, but I have to ask for something. My family don't want to give me cash.

 

[drrayeye]

An alternative you might consider would be a Chinese vegetable cleaver--maybe a 7". It could provide you an exciting new experience, keeping you out of the nosebleed section for cost.

Almost any Chinese vegetable cleaver would have no difficulty with any dense vegetables.

Maintenance would be no more difficult than with your Globals.

 

[blokey]

Apart from certain Sangdao you can't get on aliexpress or amazaon I don't think there's gonna be many knives can beat Yoshikane on dense vegetables.

 

[drrayeye]

Almost any vegetable cleaver can beat a Yoshikane on price, and you don't see many Yoshikanes chopping away at any density of vegetables in a Chinese restaurant.

 

[blokey]

Neither do I see any chinese cleaver slicing sashimi in sushi restaurant, this is not price to performance thread, if I want max ratio I'd just recommend you get a kiwi. OP want a bunka so I recommend one of the best bunka you can buy.

 

[captaincaed]

The sukenari is too big, even 170mm is pushing it. I find the 200mm one difficult to use for 80% of what I do. Maybe its just me, I know for most people that isn't a large knife. But the 140mm is much easier for me. Yes I could probably find another sukenari, but yes the yoshikane bunka calls to me.

Interesting about a 3000-4000 grit stone - I have watched a few videos and I thought I would need two (say a 1000 and a 4000). Do you think given its natural hardness if I regularly sharpen (I usually sharpen each 3 months) I could get away with a single 3000-4000?

Totally fair, go with what you'll actually love and use, most important part.

That mid/upper grit is good for touch ups every couple weeks to one a month at home. Eventually you'll need a 1k, it's true, or send to to a sharpener when the 4k is taking too long or no longer doing the trick. But a well-set bevel can be touched up for quite a while with a mid grit. If you're interested in doing it all yourself, go for it!

 

[captaincaed]

Another possible option.
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...-2-stainless-clad-santoku-165mm-migaki-finish

 

[blokey]

Another possible option.
https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...-2-stainless-clad-santoku-165mm-migaki-finish

Tanaka is good too, I wish they had the Ginsan version in stock, that would be perfect.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

"Different" and "better" are not the same--that depends on the user.

The globals are certainly better beaters than the Yoshikane lol

OP asked for new options, why stop someone looking to expand their horizons?

 

[drrayeye]

About a year ago, I "expanded my horizons" to Chinese vegetable c;leavers. It's changed everything for me--and I didn't go broke.

 

[myguidingmoonlight]

About a year ago, I "expanded my horizons" to Chinese vegetable c;leavers. It's changed everything for me--and I didn't go broke.

Again, OP wasn't asking about price-to-performance ratios, nor squares, they asked about kiritsukes and steel...

And since we're all adults we can all make our own decisions about the money we spend.

 

[blokey]

Again, OP wasn't asking about price-to-performance ratios, nor squares, they asked about kiritsukes and steel...

And since we're all adults we can all make our own decisions about the money we spend.

Based on his past behavior in other thread I'd rather not feed him anymore, he's just derail thread without offer any genuine insight.
Sorry for derail your thread op, if any mod see this, could you delete all the unrelated arguments so op can just focus on the actual useful advice, please?

 

[Troopah_Knives]

Assuming you want to get one of those two I would go for the R2. I honestly don't think you will find it much more difficult to sharpen than blue 2 because you are learning the skill from scratch anyway. I would highly recommend getting a mid-grit finishing stone of 3-4k and just using it for day-to-day upkeep and practice keeping a consistent angle. It certainly won't hold up to abuse like a global but it could be enjoyable to have something that cuts a bit nicer.

 

[discomute]

Assuming you want to get one of those two I would go for the R2. I honestly don't think you will find it much more difficult to sharpen than blue 2 because you are learning the skill from scratch anyway. I would highly recommend getting a mid-grit finishing stone of 3-4k and just using it for day-to-day upkeep and practice keeping a consistent angle. It certainly won't hold up to abuse like a global but it could be enjoyable to have something that cuts a bit nicer.

Well it's a gift and I think both the R2 and the Yoshi has been communicated to my family so not definitely sure what I will end up with.

Speaking of keeping it at an angle, what do we think about those guides that attach to knives when you're starting to help you understand 15 degrees?

Also, what is the best method of storing, maybe a magnetic knife block?

The globals are certainly better beaters than the Yoshikane lol

OP asked for new options, why stop someone looking to expand their horizons?

Funny I literally have been putting my "free" cleaver and santoku through the dishwasher since I didn't give af. Probably wouldn't for the globals but who knows how I'll feel if my new knife is so much better...

About a year ago, I "expanded my horizons" to Chinese vegetable c;leavers. It's changed everything for me--and I didn't go broke.

Again, OP wasn't asking about price-to-performance ratios, nor squares, they asked about kiritsukes and steel...

And since we're all adults we can all make our own decisions about the money we spend.

Of course not dictating board rules, I don't mind the out-of-the-box suggestions. I had previously considered Chinese cleavers but aren't going that route because I don't think it will suit me in the kitchen, and part of the inexpensiveness makes it unsuitable to ask for my parents & siblings to go in on for a present.

I think between the bunka the globals and my cleaver I will have everything covered..but who knows if my bunka ends up being terrible I might look at a cleaver, if it ends up exceeding expectations I might get a 240/270 gyuto or something.

 

[Se1ryu]

Thread '(Aus) PRICE DROP!! BEST PRICE BNIB Yu Kurosaki SG2 Bunka & Saji Damascus Petty' WTS - (Aus) PRICE DROP!! BEST PRICE BNIB Yu Kurosaki SG2 Bunka & Saji Damascus Petty

 

[drrayeye]

Well it's a gift and I think both the R2 and the Yoshi has been communicated to my family so not definitely sure what I will end up with.

Speaking of keeping it at an angle, what do we think about those guides that attach to knives when you're starting to help you understand 15 degrees?

Also, what is the best method of storing, maybe a magnetic knife block?


Funny I literally have been putting my "free" cleaver and santoku through the dishwasher since I didn't give af. Probably wouldn't for the globals but who knows how I'll feel if my new knife is so much better...



Of course not dictating board rules, I don't mind the out-of-the-box suggestions. I had previously considered Chinese cleavers but aren't going that route because I don't think it will suit me in the kitchen, and part of the inexpensiveness makes it unsuitable to ask for my parents & siblings to go in on for a present.

I think between the bunka the globals and my cleaver I will have everything covered..but who knows if my bunka ends up being terrible I might look at a cleaver, if it ends up exceeding expectations I might get a 240/270 gyuto or something.

Between Chinese Cleavers and Japanese Nakiris, there is quite a range of knives to consider--including some at the most outrageous prices. I have a small, light Nakiri (175 gm) that was given to me in Japan about 30 years ago, a pretty big 4"X8" Chinese vegetable cleaver (370 gm.), and a VG10 cladded 7" somewhere in between (250 gm.). I use them all--for different tasks.

 

[discomute]

Hi guys my knife arrived but I'm not allowed to use it until my birthday. I need to get a stone, is this okay?

https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/...hinko-1000-5000-medium-size-combo-water-stone
Also I was confused about the grit about the diamond plates, is this okay?

https://www.knivesandstones.com.au/collections/stones/products/atoma-diamond-plate-600-grit