End Grain Cutting board - Knife feels like it's binding

[mikejungle]

Hey Y'all. Still a bit new, so "hi".

I made an end grain cutting board recently (with some leftover ash), and I'm pretty proud of how it came out. Not perfect, but not bad for a first attempt with 1/2 of a workshop.

Anyway, when using it, it feels like the knife's edge binds in the wood grain. So if there's any side to side motion (e.g. mincing stuff), I can really feel it.
My question is: is this common when using end grain cutting boards? I've only used edge grain, previously.

I only sanded to 220, because I didn't think it was necessary.
And I still don't think the level of surface will alleviate the issue, but I'm going to try a finer finish or some scraping.

Any input or feedback would be great!

 

[daveb]

Mike, Pls read "Pls read" thread.

 

[mikejungle]

Mike, Pls read "Pls read" thread.

Ah, I did. But I forgot about the link rule. I'm good if I just remove the link, yeah?

 

[Heckel7302]

@OwlWoodworks

 

[Rangen]

Anyway, when using it, it feels like the knife's edge binds in the wood grain. So if there's any side to side motion (e.g. mincing stuff), I can really feel it.
My question is: is this common when using end grain cutting boards? I've only used edge grain, previously.

No, not common. I use a maple end grain cutting board for almost everything, and it doesn't happen. But I don't move the blade from side to side while in contact with the board.

So it seems likely to be either your technique, or your choice of wood.

 

[mikejungle]

Yeah, I know that ash has a visually more open grain structure, and baseball bats made of ash splinters very differently as compared to maple bats, so that may be a contributing factor...
I also know it isn't really a popular choice for an end grain cutting board, but like I mentioned, it was the best application I could think of for this time.

At any rate, I've definitely learned some lessons while making it, so I don't count it as wasted time!

However, I'd still be curious to see if anyone else has any other insight, or if there's something I could do now to lessen the issue.

 

[OwlWoodworks]

Hey Mike, interesting predicament indeed. There is certainly a difference in feel when using edge grain and end grain boards. It's a deep rabbit hole that I won't get into here, but I will say it is normal for a knife to bite into an end grain board SLIGHTLY more. Not like how you're describing though. My first thought would of course be that it is a softer wood, but ash floats around 1300 on the janka hardness scale which is just south of maple. And maple is considered a very hard and durable wood for cutting boards. Many people actually prefer much softer woods like walnut at 1010 or cherry which is usually around 950. And the differences between these is still not comparable to what your describing. So it is certainly abnormal to be having these issues and have it be a result of the wood. I certainly don't think finish or finishing method is the culprit here either. If it is a new board, finish is only going to affect how the board is affected by moisture, not the mechanical feeling of the knife.

All this to say I don't have a cutting board related question for you, but I would suspect it is the type of cutting you are doing. Push cutting and rock chopping in one direction should feel excellent on a cutting board. However a kind of rotating mincing motion with the edge of the knife on the board (and because it is end grain, ever so slightly in the board) would produce the experience you seem to be having. In addition, this isn't great for your knife edge, so I would recommend not applying any lateral pressure to the knife while cutting. Up, down, forward and back only and end grain should be your best friend. Hopefully that helps or at least helps you narrow down what the issue could be!

 

[Dan-]

^Said it much better

So you are walking the blade sideways while pressing down? Technique issue.

 

[stringer]

I would recommend not applying any lateral pressure to the knife while cutting.

+1 Knife edges hate torque. That's what you are feeling. It digs in a little more than your old board and then you are twisting. It's a bad combo for the knife edge but your board is probably great.

 

[mikejungle]

I definitely notice it more when I'm keeping the edge on the board to mince, and I make the lateral movements around a pivot point on the front edge.
I also do notice it when I was making angled vertical cuts to an onion, but not as much when I was making straight vertical cuts to get them small cubes.
But I do agree with everyone that it may just be my technique. I never felt these effects when using the edge grain cutting boards, so maybe my movements need to be improved.

So @OwlWoodworks, you don't think the grain structure of ash may be accentuating the feeling I'm getting? Maybe it's too theoretical a question (again, since ash seems pretty unpopular for end grain cutting boards).
At the bottom of my cut, it just feels like my nakiri is in a very tiny vise across the length of the blade.

Thanks everyone for your replies!
I'm still going to see if sanding it finer or scraping it with a kanna blade will change anything, and will try to report back for anyone interested.

 

[Nemo]

What sort of knife are we talking about?

Sounds like you are walk-chopping, so I guess a German style knife?

I can imagine this motion digging in to end grain. It's also particularly hard on the edges of good knives.

 

[Delat]

I get this with freshly sharpened knives, especially when cutting with some force. Using a lighter touch and push cutting so the flatter part of the blade hits the board for a larger contact area will help. Rock chopping gives you the worst of both worlds - heavier pressure on a small part of the edge.

If it bothers you a lot and you have a project knife to experiment with, you could try sharpening at a higher angle to see if that helps.

 

[OwlWoodworks]

I definitely notice it more when I'm keeping the edge on the board to mince, and I make the lateral movements around a pivot point on the front edge.
I also do notice it when I was making angled vertical cuts to an onion, but not as much when I was making straight vertical cuts to get them small cubes.
But I do agree with everyone that it may just be my technique. I never felt these effects when using the edge grain cutting boards, so maybe my movements need to be improved.

So @OwlWoodworks, you don't think the grain structure of ash may be accentuating the feeling I'm getting? Maybe it's too theoretical a question (again, since ash seems pretty unpopular for end grain cutting boards).
At the bottom of my cut, it just feels like my nakiri is in a very tiny vise across the length of the blade.

Thanks everyone for your replies!
I'm still going to see if sanding it finer or scraping it with a kanna blade will change anything, and will try to report back for anyone interested.

I am confident it’s not the ash. Like you mentioned prior, ash is very rarely used because it is an open ring porous wood. Meaning the pores are arranged in rings, and those pores are very open. This will only affect cleaning though. Those open pores make it harder to keep the board clean as they can harbour bacteria. However, it won’t have any affect on your knife, that I can promise you.

 

[mikejungle]

@Nemo, please enlighten my ignorant ass: is walk or rock chopping not ok with a thinner, low angle knife? It's a Wakui V2 Nakiri
But I felt this even with a mono-steel gyuto (albeit still thinner than other European knives I've seen)

I don't pick up the nakiri to mince, mostly just dice, but if I'm already cooking, and I need to mince, I haven't been busting out the gyuto or CCK Cleaver instead.

@Delat, I still haven't tried much with higher angle knives, but I might whip out a few debas just to check the feel. Thanks for the suggestion!

@OwlWoodworks thanks for confirming it's not the ash! I read about how its porosity might accentuate bacteria, but I chose to ignore it for this self-made project, haha.
Thanks again for your input.

 

[Delat]

@Nemo, please enlighten my ignorant ass: is walk or rock chopping not ok with a thinner, low angle knife? It's a Wakui V2 Nakiri
But I felt this even with a mono-steel gyuto (albeit still thinner than other European knives I've seen)

Oh yeah, Wakui. My Wakui nakiri sticks in the board more than any of my other knives.

It’s annoying but damn that Wakui cuts so well that all is forgiven.

 

[Nemo]

@Nemo, please enlighten my ignorant ass: is walk or rock chopping not ok with a thinner, low angle knife? It's a Wakui V2 Nakiri
But I felt this even with a mono-steel gyuto (albeit still thinner than other European knives I've seen)

I don't pick up the nakiri to mince, mostly just dice, but if I'm already cooking, and I need to mince, I haven't been busting out the gyuto or CCK Cleaver instead.

Japanese and similar knives are made from hard, brittle steel. They also have higher edge stability, so are sharpenined to more acute angles AND they are thinner behind the edge. Both of these mean that there is less steel supporting the edge, which increases edge fragility.

They are most vulnerable to edge damage from lateral (sideways) forces. These are encountered when you rotate the edge on the board, especially when you force the edge down into the board at the same time. I.e.: walk chopping. IME, rock chopping is usually ok as long as the edge isn't forced into the board while the knife is rotated.

Besides, the thin edges of Japanese style knives respond better to other cutting techniques.

 

[mikejungle]

for anyone interested, I used 3 different debas to mince some rehydrated dried shrimp (rock mince? chop?), as well as portioning filets of fish for porridge today.
No perceptible digging into the board at all, and I haven't yet amended the board in any way.

@Nemo I hear you. Even my gyuto is noticeably thinner and lighter than my previous Tojiro DP, even though it's a full 20 mm longer!

If there are any notable updates, I'll post again.
But if no one's interested, feel free to tell me to stfu.

 

[Rangen]

for anyone interested, I used 3 different debas to mince some rehydrated dried shrimp (rock mince? chop?), as well as portioning filets of fish for porridge today.
No perceptible digging into the board at all, and I haven't yet amended the board in any way.

@Nemo I hear you. Even my gyuto is noticeably thinner and lighter than my previous Tojiro DP, even though it's a full 20 mm longer!

If there are any notable updates, I'll post again.
But if no one's interested, feel free to tell me to stfu.

This is interesting and you should report your further discoveries. Definitely do not shut up.

 

[Desert Rat]

I would look at diffuse porous wood for an end grain board myself. Just to much difference between the early and late wood in the ring porous woods. If there is much early wood in the lumber used I could see it being really sticky.