First sharpening advice

[Forty Ounce]

This is one of my tutorials, it's short and sweet.



I would highly recommend watching every video in the JKI knife sharpening playlist, repeat this every month or so until you're doing well.

https://youtube.com/c/JKnifeImports

 

[scrappy]

I hoped I would be posting back by now with a report of my first sharpening, but unfortunately, I spent the whole of last weekend in close contact with someone with COVID. Unsurprisingly, I am now unwelcome in the family kitchen, so I will be sitting things out till I get the all clear.

This is one of my tutorials, it's short and sweet.



I would highly recommend watching every video in the JKI knife sharpening playlist, repeat this every month or so until you're doing well.

https://youtube.com/c/JKnifeImports

Thank you so much for the video. I shall watch it this evening. I’ll also check out JKI. It seems to be a well-regarded resource on here

 

[cotedupy]

I hoped I would be posting back by now with a report of my first sharpening, but unfortunately, I spent the whole of last weekend in close contact with someone with COVID. Unsurprisingly, I am now unwelcome in the family kitchen, so I will be sitting things out till I get the all clear.


Thank you so much for the video. I shall watch it this evening. I’ll also check out JKI. It seems to be a well-regarded resource on here

Hopefully you (and they) are all alright, though it has at least given me time to finally make a vid for you! Like everyone, I hate talking on camera, and have probably completely mangled Chinese pronunciation, but here's how to get a caidao to cleanly drop through kitchen towel with a few mins on a King 800. It's all pretty simple tbh, you don't need to overthink it too much.

@JASinIL2006

 

[scrappy]

Hopefully you (and they) are all alright, though it has at least given me time to finally make a vid for you! Like everyone, I hate talking on camera, and have probably completely mangled Chinese pronunciation, but here's how to get a caidao to cleanly drop through kitchen towel with a few mins on a King 800. It's all pretty simple tbh, you don't need to overthink it too much.


View attachment 170781







@JASinIL2006

You absolute legend! I now know exactly how my CCK 1303 should be sharpened. You make it look so easy. Even though I won’t sharpen with the same style, you have given me the confidence to think “I got this!”. Thanks a million

 

[JASinIL2006]

Thanks for making the sharpening video, @cotedupy ! That is very helpful!

 

[cotedupy]

You absolute legend! I now know exactly how my CCK 1303 should be sharpened. You make it look so easy. Even though I won’t sharpen with the same style, you have given me the confidence to think “I got this!”. Thanks a million

No worries! Just note that if you have trouble raising a burr - it will be because the sharpening angle is more acute than the factory edge, and you're abrading / easing the 'shoulders', rather than sharpening the egde. I tend to do this when I get one, as I like a slightly more acute sharpening angle, but if you just want to sharpen it quickly and easily, then just raise the angle slightly and you'll have no problem.

Caidao have slightly more simple grinds than posh Japanese knives; they're thicker just behind the edge, so if you do want to thin or ease the shoulders it can take a little while on a 1k stone. Don't be afraid to use a decent amount of pressure at the start, as if you make a mistake it'll be very easy to rectify .

 

[cotedupy]

P.S. I have since been informed that I was indeed (unsurprisingly) completely mangling Catonese pronunciation... it should be more like ‘Choy Dao’.

 

[scrappy]

No worries! Just note that if you have trouble raising a burr - it will be because the sharpening angle is more acute than the factory edge, and you're abrading / easing the 'shoulders', rather than sharpening the egde. I tend to do this when I get one, as I like a slightly more acute sharpening angle, but if you just want to sharpen it quickly and easily, then just raise the angle slightly and you'll have no problem.

Caidao have slightly more simple grinds than posh Japanese knives; they're thicker just behind the edge, so if you do want to thin or ease the shoulders it can take a little while on a 1k stone. Don't be afraid to use a decent amount of pressure at the start, as if you make a mistake it'll be very easy to rectify .

Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…

PS As I don’t speak Cantonese myself, your mispronunciation passed me by, but it’s great when people are respectful of other languages

PPS I thought your presentation in the video was spot-on. We Brits tend to be more self-conscious in front of a camera. You did a great job!

 

[gaijin]

Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…

I tried making a simple pic to clarify it:

The black is the knife. The red line is where you grind away metal when you hit the shoulder.

If you just do it "a little" then you'll get two angles (or more reasonably something smooth inbetween if doing freehand - your angle will not be perfect). If you just do it a little you'll also not hit the actual cutting egde and you won't create a burr since you won't reach the apex. The knife will however be thinner and that also helps goint through some produce.

But if you do grind away more until you reach the edge, then you will have reshaped the edge to be more acute. And you'll of course want to do something similar from both sides.

 

[gaijin]

OK, @scrappy - many posts here. How is the sharpening going in real life?

 

[cotedupy]

Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…

PS As I don’t speak Cantonese myself, your mispronunciation passed me by, but it’s great when people are respectful of other languages

PPS I thought your presentation in the video was spot-on. We Brits tend to be more self-conscious in front of a camera. You did a great job!

Ah cheers! Glad you found helpful .

@gaijin has explained perfectly the thing I was talking about with 'shoulders' and slightly more acute angle sharpening. (And you don't have to thin it if you don't want; I was only really mentioning it because if you're having trouble raising a burr - that will likely be why. As they tend to come with slightly wider edge angles than 20 degs, ime.)

 

[scrappy]

I tried making a simple pic to clarify it:

View attachment 170943B
The black is the knife. The red line is where you grind away metal when you hit the shoulder.

If you just do it "a little" then you'll get two angles (or more reasonably something smooth inbetween if doing freehand - your angle will not be perfect). If you just do it a little you'll also not hit the actual cutting egde and you won't create a burr since you won't reach the apex. The knife will however be thinner and that also helps goint through some produce.

But if you do grind away more, then you will have reshaped the edge to be more acute. And you'll of course want to do something similar from both sides.

Awesome explanation. Thank you so much. That has made things crystal clear

OK, @scrappy - many posts here. How is the sharpening going in real life?

I am currently self-isolating. Still, three more days to go. I was at a superspreader event last weekend. I seem to the only person who hasn’t caught COVID. I am being extra cautious about retrieving my kit and knives from the kitchen (from which I am currently banned) as my vulnerable, 83yo dad lives with us. No sharpening is gonna be done till Friday now, sadly

 

[Skylar303]

Awesome explanation. Thank you so much. That has made things crystal clear

I am currently self-isolating. Still, three more days to go. I was at a superspreader event last weekend. I seem to the only person who hasn’t caught COVID. I am being extra cautious about retrieving my kit and knives from the kitchen (from which I am currently banned) as my vulnerable, 83yo dad lives with us. No sharpening is gonna be done till Friday now, sadly

Yikes well glad you're being cautious and considerate. Too bad you don't keep some knives and stones in your room, you'd be a pro after a week! Lol run a string from your room and attach it to a tray and drag your stuff to your room.

Great bits of info here, especially for another struggling grasping the correct aspects of sharpening. Like apparently I maybe over honing my knives, being used to razors... I figured the 'smoother' the better, not really for knives...

Thank you both for making videos. I'll have to try 40's method so I don't have to switch hands. That was one thing I was struggling with, non dominant hand angle... One side looks good imo and the others beginning to convex being held in the Left hand.

 

[scrappy]

So, my real-life sharpening has met with mixed results. I think my cai dao was possibly sharper before I sharpened it, although not by much. I watched and rewatched the videos that cotedupy and 40 Ounce kindly linked, and reread the posts in this thread, but I am clearly having problems maintaining a consistent angle. When I looked at the the blade in the light, I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.

I am going to try again tomorrow, and really concentrate on the angle. Hopefully, it’s a case of developing the muscle memory and improving my hand position and strokes. I didn’t have a Sharpie earlier today, but I have one now, so I’ll be using that tomorrow. I might even try sharpening a cheap, old knife to get a feel for things first. Onwards and upwards.

 

[gaijin]

Good! Just keep practicing.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Be sure to relax. If you get flustered and tense and start trying to force things, you will screw up. If you feel yourself getting that way just come back another time. Keep your muscles relaxed and pay attention to your angle.

It takes practice so don't get discouraged.

 

[scrappy]

Good! Just keep practicing.

Will do! Even when it wasn’t producing the desired results, it was relaxing as hell.

Be sure to relax. If you get flustered and tense and start trying to force things, you will screw up. If you feel yourself getting that way just come back another time. Keep your muscles relaxed and pay attention to your angle.

It takes practice so don't get discouraged.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. If it gets frustrating, I’ll definitely take a breather. At the moment, though, I’m really looking forward to trying it again. All part of the learning curve

 

[gaijin]

Will do! Even when it wasn’t producing the desired results, it was relaxing as hell.

It is it's own form of meditation. Just wait until the day you take a perfectly fine knife and dull it down on purpose just to be able to sharpen it again... I may have done that a time or two. Or more.

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

, I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.

Variations in the bevel reveal width can be from different sharpening angles, but they can also be from differing thicknesses behind the edge (read grind) and can be corrected with thinning.

As evidence, even a constant angle devise like Edge Pro or Wicked Edge can produce wavy bevel reveals if the grind behind the edge is inconsistent.

 

[scrappy]

It is it's own form of meditation. Just wait until the day you take a perfectly fine knife and dull it down on purpose just to be able to sharpen it again... I may have done that a time or two. Or more.

i can totally see myself doing that. As I’ve mentioned before, I like baking, and I can see that sharpening will empty my mind like kneading dough. The only other thing that gives me the same feeling is fishing. If I had my life again, I’d be a fisherman. Fisherman need sharp knives, too. Also, bread and fish go well together, so I would still be able to knead. I would be in nirvana

Variations in the bevel reveal width can be from different sharpening angles, but they can also be from differing thicknesses behind the edge (read grind) and can be corrected with thinning.

As evidence, even a constant angle devise like Edge Pro or Wicked Edge can produce wavy bevel reveals if the grind behind the edge is inconsistent.

Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. Given that I am a complete beginner, is it reasonable to assume that the wavy bevel is user error rather than an inconsistent grind? At this stage, the idea if thinning anything is quite intimidating.

 

[Benuser]

When I started I made a few wedges — wood or cork — with an inclination that corresponds to common sharpening angles. 18, 15, 12, 8, 6, 2 degrees. For reference. To me it was very helpful. After a while I only used them very rarely.
As for thinning: any sharpening at a lower angle than used for the very edge is a form of thinning. I would first try to ease the shoulders the bevels have created. The shoulder is where bevel and face meet. Find out at which angle you hit the shoulder in the middle. You may use a fine stone to find out, and use a coarser one to really abrade a bit of steel.
No bad idea to start your following sharpenings at that low angle and increase it only little by little until you've reached the very edge. This to avoid thickening behind the edge that occurs when you only touch the very edge. The thickness behind the edge is critical for the blade's performance: much more than the sharpening angle you're using for the very edge.

 

[Karinkharris]

Another bit of advice...

Don't watch too many different videos by different people...pick one method and stick with it...

When starting out trying to switch between too many different techniques will slow your progress. Once you're able to get consistently repeatable results then experiment all you care too.

And remember, when starting out as long as it's sharper than when you started...it's a success... you'll soon enough get to whatever standard you feel is sharp enough....

Take care

Jeff

A am agree with you. Different videos shows different methods of knife sharpening that can create confusion. Pick a method & study on that before applying it.

 

[cotedupy]

I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.

Oh balls... I almost did a closeup of my knife in the vid to show this and say - don’t worry about it!

This kind of caidao always have very inconsistent grinds / thickness to the main bevel or face. You *will* get a wavy looking edge, especially if you’re sharpening below the factory angle.

All of mine have this to some degree, it’s highly unlikely to be an angle control thing.

 

[VICTOR J CREAZZI]

Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. Given that I am a complete beginner, is it reasonable to assume that the wavy bevel is user error rather than an inconsistent grind? At this stage, the idea if thinning anything is quite intimidating.

I would not assume that the inconsistent bevel width is user error. It could be, but that would infer that you're making the same angle errors, in the same areas, somewhat consistently. Mainly I didn't want you blaming yourself for an issue that you likely weren't causing.

Don't worry about thinning and wavy bevels until you're ready to and just work on holding constant angles. Just thinking about the geometry of what is happening will help you understand a lot about what you're trying to do when you do start thinning. When you're ready to start thinning the wavy bevel reveals shows you where you need to concentrate your work.

 

[deltaplex]

I'll add that it's very very hard with the knives you have to mess them up hand sharpening on stones in any way that's not easily fixable. I tend to dive faaaarrr into information with things like learning to sharpen (and I did!) but in practice it's pretty simple. Don't worry about making a mistake, just focus on gaining muscle memory/stamina in your sessions, verifying that you're raising a burr (then refine that down to a consistently sized burr), and working on de-burring/post de-burr refinement and you'll have better than ootb sharpness pretty much every time. How much further down the rabbit hole you go after that is up to you.

 

[scrappy]

OK, I’m glad to report, today’s efforts were more successful. My cai dao is definitely sharper than it was OOTB. By the end, it would cut through A4 paper, although it felt like it might have been tearing slightly. I will see if I can improve the edge tomorrow. I had a few problems getting used to sharpening the flipside with my non-dominant hand, but it fell into place eventually. I used a Sharpie this time, so that helped. I also paid more attention to raising a burr. I finished by stropping on cardboard to deburr. All in all, I felt like I made some progress, which is always nice

When I started I made a few wedges — wood or cork — with an inclination that corresponds to common sharpening angles. 18, 15, 12, 8, 6, 2 degrees. For reference. To me it was very helpful. After a while I only used them very rarely.
As for thinning: any sharpening at a lower angle than used for the very edge is a form of thinning. I would first try to ease the shoulders the bevels have created. The shoulder is where bevel and face meet. Find out at which angle you hit the shoulder in the middle. You may use a fine stone to find out, and use a coarser one to really abrade a bit of steel.
No bad idea to start your following sharpenings at that low angle and increase it only little by little until you've reached the very edge. This to avoid thickening behind the edge that occurs when you only touch the very edge. The thickness behind the edge is critical for the blade's performance: much more than the sharpening angle you're using for the very edge.View attachment 171611

Thanks this is really helpful information. Love the napkin diagram. It makes things a lot clearer for me. At the moment, I only have one stone, a Shapton Pro 1K. In a few months, or whenever I’m more proficient, I’ll add another finer grit stone, but until then I’ll be concentrating on the basics. Thanks again.

A am agree with you. Different videos shows different methods of knife sharpening that can create confusion. Pick a method & study on that before applying it.

I’ll definitely bear that in mind. Yes, two many methods will only create confusion. Thanks

This kind of caidao always have very inconsistent grinds / thickness to the main bevel or face. You *will* get a wavy looking edge, especially if you’re sharpening below the factory angle.

All of mine have this to some degree, it’s highly unlikely to be an angle control thing.

Well, that’s reassuring. Even though I know my angle slipped at points, I won’t go chasing a perfectly straight bevel. Your video still helped a lot. Thanks.

I would not assume that the inconsistent bevel width is user error. It could be, but that would infer that you're making the same angle errors, in the same areas, somewhat consistently. Mainly I didn't want you blaming yourself for an issue that you likely weren't causing.

Don't worry about thinning and wavy bevels until you're ready to and just work on holding constant angles. Just thinking about the geometry of what is happening will help you understand a lot about what you're trying to do when you do start thinning. When you're ready to start thinning the wavy bevel reveals shows you where you need to concentrate your work.

That’s good to know. I have never examined an edge so closely, so I wasn’t sure if this was to be expected. Yes, I will just focus on angles for now. Thanks to the fantastic input here, the theory is starting to make a lot more sense. I appreciate the advice.

I'll add that it's very very hard with the knives you have to mess them up hand sharpening on stones in any way that's not easily fixable. I tend to dive faaaarrr into information with things like learning to sharpen (and I did!) but in practice it's pretty simple. Don't worry about making a mistake, just focus on gaining muscle memory/stamina in your sessions, verifying that you're raising a burr (then refine that down to a consistently sized burr), and working on de-burring/post de-burr refinement and you'll have better than ootb sharpness pretty much every time. How much further down the rabbit hole you go after that is up to you.

I was about to ask that exact question. Will I mess up my knives? But you answered it for me. Thank you. My angle consistency felt better today. One day at a time

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Good job! The off hand is always tough to learn. I sharpened for about for about 40 odd years with just my dominant hand and haven't been swapping for long and I still need to really focus.

I also agree with @VICTOR J CREAZZI that what you're seeing may well be manufacturing caused.

Remember, there will be set backs, just keep practicing and allow it to come over some time. And don't lie to yourself. If there isn't a full burr the entire length, don't pretend there is or that it will be okay. If it isn't as sharp as it should be, acknowledge that to yourself. It's easy to mislead yourself when you really want something to work out, especially when so many say it is so "easy", but don't do it. All of those things are what help you learn, adjust, and develop good habits.

 

[scrappy]

Good job! The off hand is always tough to learn. I sharpened for about for about 40 odd years with just my dominant hand and haven't been swapping for long and I still need to really focus.

I also agree with @VICTOR J CREAZZI that what you're seeing may well be manufacturing caused.

Remember, there will be set backs, just keep practicing and allow it to come over some time. And don't lie to yourself. If there isn't a full burr the entire length, don't pretend there is or that it will be okay. If it isn't as sharp as it should be, acknowledge that to yourself. It's easy to mislead yourself when you really want something to work out, especially when so many say it is so "easy", but don't do it. All of those things are what help you learn, adjust, and develop good habits.

Thank you for the words of advice. I am not easily deterred. I know I’ll hit roadblocks, but I’m in it for the long haul. I‘ll get there in the end. In a sense, I am hypercritical of my efforts in many areas. For example, when I baked my first loaf, I immediately focused on what was wrong with it: the flavour, the crumb, the crust. My family were saying ”the bread’s fine”, as if the loaf being edible was the endgame.

When it comes to my hobbies, good enough is never good enough for me. I did notice yesterday that the burr had small gaps in it, but I wasn’t sure whether I could easily correct the gaps without affecting the existing burr. I shall be more mindful of that when I next sharpen. Anyway, thanks again

 

[deltaplex]

Gapping in the burr just means you need to work that area of the edge more/there's potentially an uneven grind or warp there.

 

[psfred]

Sharpening by hand is unlikely to cause problems you can't fix easily, unlike using power tools where a slip can gouge out far more material in an incorrect spot that you would like to believe -- I'm a year and a half or more into re-grinding a yanagiba I seriously damaged on a belt grinder in just one light pass.

It takes time and practice to learn to sharpen, but if you feel your knife is sharper now than when you got it, you are on the right road. Heavy asian knives like my Korean "cow knife" can be very roughly manufactured. Has no influence at all on the quality of the edge or usability of the knife, but overgrinds, rough forging, and so forth are part of the experience. My very inexpensive Korean knife has forging scale on it, is very roughly ground on a coarse wheel, and has saw marks down the spine where it was band sawn from some sort of sheet steel (identified as "railroad steel", whatever that is). Obvious hammer marks from forging too. Not a pretty knfe, but it takes and holds a very fine edge and is first choice for slicing onions or cutting ribs, both of which it does with great ease.

A few more sharpenings and you will be getting very nice edges.