Honyaki? I don't get it ...

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Omega said:
@scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?
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I'm guessing you dont really know much about Murray in terms of marriage, balde smithing education, and his connection to Japan in general etc. Being able to source a material through family ties is an exception to the rule here. Hitachi white is hard to come by as raw material outside of Japan for the average Joe, and Murray is anything but your average Joe.
 
and i spoke few months ago to Kijima Hiroaki, seller for hitachi, it was very easy yo buy 1000Kg , i remember the price : 11euros /kg. ( plus TVA , shipping etc etc etc )
 
it was in 2015 :

Material; Shirogami No.1 (white paper 1)
Size ; 4.5t x 300w x 1500L
Unit price ; 11,00EUR/kg
Min Lots ; 1,400kg
Date of delivery ; 12months after your P/O
Payment terms ; ADVENCED PAYMENT

If you assent, please would you issue purchase order to us.

Best reards,
H.Kijima
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Omega said:
@scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?
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don't know. I do know that the suppliers of cutlery steel in small amounts have tried and can not get it. this would include Alpha Knife Supply, Jantz Supply, and New Jersey Steel Baron. some talk of buying from Dictum in Europe, but the cost of the material and shipping is very high.
 
bryan03 said:
it was in 2015 :
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And in 2012;

Dear Dan san

Pls be informed as below.

Item1
AOGAMI-2 T4xW35 Lenght between 2000 and 4500L MIN LOT 430kg CIF UK PORT 1410JPY/kg
Delivery time to UK port 8.5 month after payment

Item2
Shirogami T4xW35 Length between 2000 and 4500L MIN LOT 440kg CIF UK PORT 1140JPY/kg
Delivery time to UK port 9.0 month after payment

PAYMENT CONDITION: PREPAYMENT

If JPY is not acceptable I will prepare EUR or GBP price. Pleaes kindly advise.

Best regards,
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Not horrible, actually, but out of my budget at the time, especially when you add on import duty and weird port tax stuff.
And then there is the fact that Japanese steel comes with a lot of sizzle, but at the end of the day it is no better than equivalent steel from, for instance, Europe or the US.
 
Dan, I am not aware of any steel in active production that would directly compare to white or blue steel ind composition or purity. Maybe the UHB20C which is somewhere between white#2 and white#3
 
Matus said:
Dan, I am not aware of any steel in active production that would directly compare to white or blue steel ind composition or purity. Maybe the UHB20C which is somewhere between white#2 and white#3
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Matus, there are a few steels that are "equivalent" in the steel sense, i.e. low alloy cold work steels.
As for "purity", I'm afraid that is the Japanese sizzle right there; I don't know what the Japanese protocol is for generic (as opposed to batch assay) listings of impurities, but the European and US specs usually list "less than" what I believe is the maximum allowed by industry standards, if not by law.
Now, as for "purity" as in no manganese or silicon or chromium or whatever, I do know that below a certain amount alloys do not have to be listed in the EU, and I can imagine that this is true internationally as well. Thus small levels of silicon and manganese, which are essential to the modern steel production process, are absolutely, positively present in, for instance, "pure" shirogami, but it may not be listed because they are not obliged to (and it might effect that sizzle!)
 
Dan, thank you. I guess what wanted to say was the Japanese steels can be had since decades and fir decades to come in very high qualit (with impurity I meant mainly Phosphorus and Sulfur). In EU there steels like 1.2519, 125SC, 1.2442, 1.2513 and some others - but all of these (to my knowledge) are a remaining stock - more might be produced or alsi not - there is no continuous priduction. There is of course O1 (1.2510 - most if which comes from China) or 52100 (1.305) - none of which can oriduce hamon. Other then that, I was not able to find.
 
tsuriru said:
Matus, perhaps it would be more prudent to say that the hamon is not as accented on o1. At least this is my experience with it.
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I apologise. My understanding was that O1 does not really work well to show hamon. A quick browsing action yielded further evidence that I was indeed wrong.
 
SC125 was made recently for knife makers by order from Achim. Sc145 was the first run. I guess he will provide it further! PM me for contact info.
 
Matus said:
I apologise. My understanding was that O1 does not really work well to show hamon. A quick browsing action yielded further evidence that I was indeed wrong.
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:thumbsup: Hamon on o1 is a very tricky thing to pull off, and they are seldom as dramatic as we would like them to be. I find that through careful etching and polishing o1 hamon can be "helped along" to a certain degree, but certainly, I can see where the misconception can arise from.
 
I guess the dictum blanks would count as a semi-processed product, not a bulk export :) Or might have been from some big batch of surplus stock from some stockist that went out of business in Japan or something - probably like the difference between getting some obsolete missile parts through a government bulk auction vs ordering some official spares for your old missile :)

And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period :)
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period :)
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Name any other maker outside of Japan making knives of white or blue made by hitachi corp.

bryan03 said:
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...blanc-du-japon
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...-x-30-x-4-5-mm
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...r-papier-blanc
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...minagashi-quot
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How do you know its been made by hitachi ?
I ordered long ago but its made by takefu.
 
the main reason I would like to obtain some Hitachi white or blue is to do apples to apples testing. I am currently making close to identical blades of O1, 52100, 8670, and 80CrV2. the blades will be same size, grind, and hardness, sharpened on the same stone, so any differences seen in use will be from steel composition.
I use tool steel from the same maker as the variation in composition lot to lot is kept to a minimum, so the heat treat procedure done yesterday will work tomorrow.
 
LifeByA1000Cuts said:
I guess the dictum blanks would count as a semi-processed product, not a bulk export :) Or might have been from some big batch of surplus stock from some stockist that went out of business in Japan or something - probably like the difference between getting some obsolete missile parts through a government bulk auction vs ordering some official spares for your old missile :)

And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period :)
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did you forge ? if yes, i can send to you a small pièce of shiro 1.
 
No, I do not forge or make knives - but I did see these dictum blanks since ... well, every german knife or tool nut has been through the dictum catalogs many times ;)
 
natto said:
SC125 was made recently for knife makers by order from Achim. Sc145 was the first run. I guess he will provide it further! PM me for contact info.
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That is exactly what I meant. The steel is being mede in small (about 1000kg) batches - every few years some other steel. That means that a pro knifemaker either buys a stock that will last him several years (a large investment), or he may need to change steels every few years.

Thank you, I know Aachim and have some 125sc and 1.2442 waiting in line already :)
 
Matus said:
That is exactly what I meant. The steel is being mede in small (about 1000kg) batches - every few years some other steel. That means that a pro knifemaker either buys a stock that will last him several years (a large investment), or he may need to change steels every few years.

Thank you, I know Aachim and have some 125sc and 1.2442 waiting in line already :)
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So, I guess we found at least one aspect where there are better options than hitachi white. Availability.
 
tsuriru said:
So, I guess we found at least one aspect where there are better options than hitachi white. Availability.
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I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.

But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.
 
Matus said:
I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.

But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.
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Are You sure they use steel made by hitachi and not an analogue by takefu or other company ?
 
Matus said:
I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.

But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.
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What you are describing is not considered "availability" in my book. You are describing a situation where a certain steel may or may not pop-up here or there at an unknown quantity and an unknown price. This might be OK for hobbyists but for a more professional setting, it is simply too unpredictable to depend on. In my part of the world it is especially hard to come by various materials, and importing anything is a nightmare due to our glorious postal service (probably the worst postal service on the face of the planet) so dependability of supply is an absolute MUST, and where it cannot be provided - thats a deal breaker. Also, in todays market it makes no sense to hoard a large stock of any material - especially steel which needs special attention when long term storage is concerned. The logical conclusion, at least here, and for me, is to rely on dependable time honored importers of dependable time honored materials wich, in the end, yield blades just as fine as the ones made of Hitachi white.
 
As has been said I'm sure a million times, it is 95% the smith, 5% the steel.

And I totally understand the mystique of a Japan made honyaki, but it is, was, and will remain true that the making of a high hardness mono steel knife with a hamon is not exactly rocket science.
 
Matus said:
The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.
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I'm not sure what makes a steel interesting to you personally (I think we all, whether maker or user or both, have our personal preferences in this regard), but if it is hamon formation, there is 1.2210, BS1407, W2, as well as various flavours of 1095, i.e. 20C, CS100, etc. etc. (which being spring/washer steels seem to often have higher inclusions of manganese, which as you know will negatively affect Hamon formation).
 
Dan, I agree with your 95% / 5% statement completely. Well, to call a steel 'interesting' is arguably not the best wording. But yes - the steel you mention do all belong there, plus those with little more alloys (like some that I have mentioned earlier). Oh, and O1 definitely too. Tends to be underrated today as it somehow does not sound so cool, but if I am not mistaken, it was developed for knives (which most steels are not)

I do not see any 'mystique' in the japanese steels - but those are steels that are long in production, are being produced with constant quality and - if one has the means to order - also a good availability (well, I do not, but I am just a hobby maker).

There are definitely more steels available when one forges knives instead of doing stock removal. For example the 1.3505 (52100) can be had for forging, but is not available in thickness attractive for stock removal.

TC, I understand your point.
 
JSCT said:
Name any other maker outside of Japan making knives of white or blue made by hitachi corp.
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Both Weimy Cutlery and Rebelde Blades use Hitachi sourced white steel AFAIK. I believe it's through their connection to Murray Carter. It's been a while since I checked the details, but if you do the extensive bladesmithing school with Carter, at the end he provides you with a certain amount of Hitachi steel to continue your efforts.
 
panda said:
This thread got real boring real quick.
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There are, so far, some very interesting insights to be had here.

1) There is no clear consensus on the etymology of Honyaki.

2) There is no clear consensus on the specific attributes that need to be met to dub a knife "Honyaki"

3) Clearly there is a gap between what certain people WANT to hear about points 1 and 2, and what can actually be said about points 1 and 2 without slipping into magic lore and mythology.

4) There are several very interesting insights regarding materials, process, and technique that are sure to be less than boring for anyone dabbling in the arts - and that is always a great payoff.

Boring? I think not.
 
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