How to Get SS Knives Really Sharp?

[Andrey V]

As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...

Exactly!! It's time to have fun if it!!
I can't say my knives tend to wear down [emoji12].
Having 50+ of them there will be always some still big/long/wide enough to be used [emoji41][emoji41].
After all, the Jnat sharpening isn't that fatal for the knife as synthetic one.

 

[Asteger]

...After all, the Jnat sharpening isn't that fatal for the knife as synthetic one.

And, wink, wink, if you don't want to you probably won't need to sharpen as often anyway.

But, AV, surely you'd also advocate having fun now. I hope to, but also hope that I can use stuff I'm buying now decades into the future - that's the idea - as I won't be following this stuff forever and one must always find new hobbies & interests.

 

[ThEoRy]

Not everyone has 50 gyutos though and oversharpening should be of concern. Why remove more steel than needed? That's just throwing money away.

 

[designdog]

Not everyone has 50 gyutos though and oversharpening should be of concern. Why remove more steel than needed? That's just throwing money away.

They're not all gyutos.:wink:

Of course what you say makes sense. But, anyone with a shred of common sense would not have as many knives or stones as Andrey and I seem to have. And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal. I have a Carter funayuki that I bought in 2008. It probably has been used more than any of my knives, more as a utility knife than anything else. As such, it has also been sharpened more — using my "system." A-and mostly with those mean old synthetic stones, since I just got into Jnats last year.

Now, I don't have a photographic memory - far from it - but that knife looks the same today as it did when I bought it. Better, as it was not very sharp on receipt, as I recall. I suppose that in twenty years it will look like a petty. A very, very sharp petty. Hopefully I will still be using it then...:bigeek:

 

[Asteger]

If I can repeat myself from above, I was a bit freaked when I tried some synths after not touching them for about 1.5 years - the amount of metal coming off was the shocker.

On a related note, I also measured the height on one of the knives I sharpen most often (on nats) to compare it to how it was when I got it 2 years before or so, feeling guilty for sharpening it that much and fully expecting that it'd shed 2 or 3 mm. However, I was surprised and quite happy to see that it seemed almost the same, maybe with but 1 mm difference according to my tape measure.

I agree with Theory above. However, on the other hand, it also depends on the buyer and what the knives are bought for. Of course, good knives are made to last and to be cared for, and not to be sharpened more than needed. That would be a shame, especially if you respect the knife, the maker, their role and use and so on. Most makes probably also make their knives imagining or hoping they will be used more than collected and sitting around. But if you don't use your knives heavily (you're a home cook and probably have too many of them) perhaps using them for experimentation, etc, and learning about them that way can also be fine and valid, and not a waste in other words. Even those of us who sharpen more than needed (playing with stones) probably take good care of the blades too.

 

[daveb]

Rick - You're getting no-where on wearing out knives with this crowd. Maybe if you talked about unnecessary wear on the stones......:rofl2:

 

[Asteger]

Rick - You're getting no-where on wearing out knives with this crowd. Maybe if you talked about unnecessary wear on the stones......:rofl2:

Whoa, whoa, careful there, Dave. Now that's controversial. Flattening: You have the diamond camp and the nagura camp, and you wouldn't want to be between 'em.

Luckily, you rarely have to flatten most naturals. Thank goodness.

 

[Cheeks1989]

Realistically how often does a home cook really need to sharpen there knives? If you are a home cook you take as much steel off as you would like

 

[ThEoRy]

And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal.

Then you are not over sharpening now are you? To me, oversharpening is defined by removing more steel than necessary by say using too low a grit when not needed, staying too long one one stone when you should have moved up in grit already or just sharpening too frequently. If you are doing those things than you are oversharpening. In any of those cases more metal is being removed than required for optimal results. Be it minimal or not, it all adds up.

As a pro user, these tools help provide my livelihood and are in constant use. Constant use requires constant care. Simply put, more sharpening. That being said the useful life of a knife for a pro greatly differs from that of a home user. I may sharpen my home knives once for every three or four times I sharpen my work knives. So while steel removal may be "minimal" in your case, multiply that by 3 or 4 and think of the long term effects after a few years. The oversharpening struggle is real. lol

 

[designdog]

I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!

 

[Dazedandkasumi]

:goodpost:

I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!

 

[Mute-on]

Then you are not over sharpening now are you? To me, oversharpening is defined by removing more steel than necessary by say using too low a grit when not needed, staying too long one one stone when you should have moved up in grit already or just sharpening too frequently. If you are doing those things than you are oversharpening. In any of those cases more metal is being removed than required for optimal results. Be it minimal or not, it all adds up.

This is a very important point, very well made by Rick. Understanding how low a grit is required, and how long it should be used before moving on, is central to both effective and efficient sharpening. None of us wants to lose any more steel than absolutely necessary to keep our blades in peak performing condition.

As a recent convert to naturals, I have an awful lot to learn. Thanks to Rick, and many others here, my knives will last longer and perform better than would otherwise have been the case.

Cheers:doublethumbsup:

 

[psfred]

As a home cook with too many knives, I sharpen the low end stainless maybe once very six months when they become irritating to use. High quality steel much less -- as in I've gotten them sharp some time back and have not felt the need to sharpen again.

Proper sharpening should not remove much steel, you should stop as soon as you have a clean apex on the edge. More is just speeding up the need to thin or adjust geometry and will reduce the life of the knife.

So will chips, another reason to take good care of your knives!

Peter

 

[DDPslice]

For my stainless I get it nice and gritty on 1200 then haze out the finish on a jnat then polish in a naniwa. It usually keeps a couple weeks if I keep honing it on a rod.

 

[Salty dog]

I sharpen my stainless like everything else. By feel.
I'm not getting into this except to say I'm using more stainless than Carbon these days.

Not sure what that means but I don't care.

 

[Andrey V]

I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!

[emoji120]🏻[emoji106]🏻[emoji106]🏻[emoji106]🏻[emoji106]🏻

 

[Andrey V]

This is a very important point, very well made by Rick. Understanding how low a grit is required, and how long it should be used before moving on, is central to both effective and efficient sharpening. None of us wants to lose any more steel than absolutely necessary to keep our blades in peak performing condition.

As a recent convert to naturals, I have an awful lot to learn. Thanks to Rick, and many others here, my knives will last longer and perform better than would otherwise have been the case.

Cheers:doublethumbsup:

The other important point is: the finer Jnats don't take much metal off. They don't wear out, at least it's minimal loss. [emoji41].
They reinforce the blade as well- it means they prolong the life of the knife.
And they bring fun. That's a lot.
Oversharpening shouldn't take place when we talk about a skilled user. To see the right moment to move to the higher grit belongs to the prized name " the skilled sharpener".
As well as the possibility to see the point when to start sharpening. If one can't determinate the real moment when to make some strokes on finer stone( to understand the knife becomes dull) he will pay with more metal loss starting from lower grits.
So in this case both parts are important: when to sharpen & how to sharpen.

 

[Andrey V]

I sharpen my stainless like everything else. By feel.
I'm not getting into this except to say I'm using more stainless than Carbon these days.

Not sure what that means but I don't care.

It means you don't care![emoji41]. No rules. You do what's better( more convenient) for you. [emoji120]🏻[emoji106]🏻

 

[Andrey V]

They're not all gyutos.:wink:

Of course what you say makes sense. But, anyone with a shred of common sense would not have as many knives or stones as Andrey and I seem to have. And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal. I have a Carter funayuki that I bought in 2008. It probably has been used more than any of my knives, more as a utility knife than anything else. As such, it has also been sharpened more — using my "system." A-and mostly with those mean old synthetic stones, since I just got into Jnats last year.

Now, I don't have a photographic memory - far from it - but that knife looks the same today as it did when I bought it. Better, as it was not very sharp on receipt, as I recall. I suppose that in twenty years it will look like a petty. A very, very sharp petty. Hopefully I will still be using it then...:bigeek:

Soft steel knives tend to wear out quickly. Not the harder ones.
Same with harder Jnats. They stay flat forever. Sometimes it's a curse to flatten 'em, but as soon as the job has been done, it lasts forever. And, after all, all the great knives can be converted into same great but a bit smaller knives: into smaller Gyutos, Petties, shorter Yanagibas etc)
That's the benefit of a great job done by a great blacksmith [emoji102][emoji102][emoji106]🏻

 

[designdog]

OP here, and it was never my intention to start a SS vs carbon discussion. I know where I stand on that issue. It is simply that I have run out of Japanese knives/makers that interest me, and wanted to try a Devin, a Marco, a Pierre, etc. It seems that most of these are stainless, so I now have some SS knives. Better or worse than carbon? No idea, really. I do know (now) that they are harder to sharpen, and do sharpen as well on Jnats. Perhaps a longer lasting edge is the tradeoff. Don't know yet.

What I would really like, would be, say, a Devin ITC in the equivalent of white carbon steel! I now have two of those and they are both AEB-L. Really, really nice knives.

But when you run a Kato, for example, over those natural stones, that, gentlemen, is another dimension. Who is to blame anyone for not caring that they will have to do it sooner?:2thumbsup:

 

[psfred]

On a purely technical note here, stainless steels containing chromium will have chromium carbides dispersed throughout the steel matrix of the blade, and this changes how they sharpen and what tools you need.

The reason carbon steel sharpens so much more easily is that the iron carbides are tiny and evenly distributed, with the result that they are easy to abrade away (they are also softer than chromium carbides, but that isn't the point here). Not as abrasion resistant, so the edge will wear faster, but getting a nice edge is fairly easy, as noted.

When you have chromium present, depending on the steel composition and heat treat (and production methods) there are larger chromium carbide particles in the edge. These tend to be larger (AEB-L is known for the small size of the carbides, though, also "swedish razor steel" from various makers) and are harder than natural stone abrasives as a rule, and not that much softer than aluminum oxide. The result, of course, is that it takes more work to remove metal from hard stainless edges, and chromium containing alloys are notoriously "gummy" to machine -- meaning they leave persistent burrs. VERY persistent burrs, in fact.

Getting a good edge on a stainless knife make of high end steel and properly heat treated takes more work than any carbon steel of equivalent hardness, it's simply more resistant to abrasion by your stones. Once you get the hang of that, you will need to get the technique for removing burrs for that particular steel/knife/stone combination established, and then I suspect you will be quite happy.

Try your synthetics, or a combination of synthetic and natural stones -- probably something like 1k for actual sharpening, 3-5k for polishing the edge, and then whatever combination of high grit stones and strops gives you the type of edge you want. It is entirely possible that the knife will feel "sharper" if you don't got too high on the final grit, leaving a bit of "tooth" to the edge -- unlike carbon steel knives, the abrasion resistance of the chromium carbides will keep this "toothy" edge cutting longer.

AEB-L, H-34 (? -- I have a terrible memory) and "swedish razor steel" from various places all have small carbides and sharpen more like carbon steel than lower grade stainless with large carbides (CroMoVa's, etc). and will benefit more from high grit sharpening.

You will figure it out eventually.

Peter

 

[designdog]

Excellent! Thank you...

 

[Keith Sinclair]

The PM steels like SRS-15 and Hap 40 have fine grain structure. I have found that they respond well to Synthetics & to Natural stones. The SRS-15 is more stain resistant than the Hap 40. Being a total carbon junkie for many years must admit that there are some really nice stainless knives being made these days not like the stainless of past years.

Even at the 215-250 price range knives like the Kagero & Ginga are bargins.

 

[psfred]

A few of the newer stainless steels were actually developed for knives. Razor steel, obviousls was, but many of the other popular stainless steels were originally developed for things like turbine blades in jet engines. Abrasion resistance and stability at white heat were more important that sharpening characteristics or edge retention! The fact that they also make very good knives is somewhat secondary to their intended use.

Peter