Kato geometry

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chefcomesback said:
I found the pic that explains the geometry of Kato from the reflections , I can't post pics but send emails if anyone interested
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If you physically can't post it brother, send it to me and I will. If you mean you can't withing staying in the site rules...my understanding is that as long as it's not your work, or in comparison to your work etc, you can post pictures as you like.
 
I would still like to hear from anybody that now owns or has owned a Kato Workhorse and a Kato non-workhorse if they can explain how much of a difference there are in the two geometry of these knives in how they perform, etc.
 
I would like to hear too if the Damascus finish is the same? Cool it be one is etch and the other is polish?
 
I'm sure this been covered before, but what it the difference between the standard and work horse? My impression was that it was a higher heel height, different core steel, a less finished polish and some additional kanji. Things are confusing there and he's never really answered my questions.
 
Chicagohawkie said:
I'm sure this been covered before, but what it the difference between the standard and work horse? My impression was that it was a higher heel height, different core steel, a less finished polish and some additional kanji. Things are confusing there and he's never really answered my questions.
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I know that much as Maskim has stated that a few times. I was wanting to hear from somebody that has both versions of the knife to see if there is an actual difference in user performance/feedback, etc.
 
Well, I spent the evening doing a fair bit of veggies with both a 240 workhorse gyuto and a 240 damascus gyuto. Difference was fairly significant. Will post pics and detailed thought over the next couple of days. I need to measure both but first impressions are that the damascus gyuto is significantly thinner and you can definitely tell it. Noticeably less effort to cut anything. Bell peppers, damascus will cut through completely with absolutely no pressure. Workhorse takes some slight pressure. Carrots, damascus cuts with no wedging at all or maybe just a very slight crack on a really thick one, not so much with the workhorse.

The damascus is much more "laser" like while still having a significant heft. I'm definitely not saying the workhorse is a lesser knife, it's just thicker and has less distal taper and you can definitely tell it in the effort required to cut things. Still better than 90% of the knives I've tried but not as sweet as the damascus one.

Again, sorry for the teaser but I'll get the camera and calipers out and provide some further details over the next couple of days.

cheers

Mike

PS - I have some other non-workhorse Kato's and they are thicker than the damascus but still cut remarkably well.
 
Are you implying the non-workhorse Kato's (original) are better cutters than the workhorse? I have a couple originals on order from japan directly so I'm curious how that is.

Also guessing the 240 damascus is a original vs. a workhorse damascus (or is there even such a thing?)

Cannot wait for this detailed comparison =)

Smurfmacaw said:
Well, I spent the evening doing a fair bit of veggies with both a 240 workhorse gyuto and a 240 damascus gyuto. Difference was fairly significant. Will post pics and detailed thought over the next couple of days. I need to measure both but first impressions are that the damascus gyuto is significantly thinner and you can definitely tell it. Noticeably less effort to cut anything. Bell peppers, damascus will cut through completely with absolutely no pressure. Workhorse takes some slight pressure. Carrots, damascus cuts with no wedging at all or maybe just a very slight crack on a really thick one, not so much with the workhorse.

The damascus is much more "laser" like while still having a significant heft. I'm definitely not saying the workhorse is a lesser knife, it's just thicker and has less distal taper and you can definitely tell it in the effort required to cut things. Still better than 90% of the knives I've tried but not as sweet as the damascus one.

Again, sorry for the teaser but I'll get the camera and calipers out and provide some further details over the next couple of days.

cheers

Mike

PS - I have some other non-workhorse Kato's and they are thicker than the damascus but still cut remarkably well.
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Surf,
Your Damascus is the Togo version correct? I think they are specked a little thinner, shorter in length and at the heel although they can all vary somewhat. I have a the Togo Std and its about 230mm, and 46-47 at the heel and almost transparent at the tip. It has the thinnest tip portion of any knive I've owned.
 
Chicagohawkie said:
Surf,
Your Damascus is the Togo version correct? I think they are specked a little thinner, shorter in length and at the heel although they can all vary somewhat. I have a the Togo Std and its about 230mm, and 46-47 at the heel and almost transparent at the tip. It has the thinnest tip portion of any knive I've owned.
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Took me a second to think about the Togo reference lol. Yes, you got it in one. To compare with the Workhorse, the thicknesses are:

WH Damascus
Height at heel 50mm 48.5mm
Spine Thickness
Heel 5mm 4.5mm
1/4 blade 3.25mm 3.1mm
1/2 blade 2.85mm 2.5mm
3/4 blade 2.75mm 1.9mm
10mm from tip 1.0mm 0.7mm

Thickness 10mm from edge
heel 1.9mm 1.78mm
1/4 blade 1.7mm 1.68mm
1/2 blade 1.8mm (not a typo) 1.5mm
3/4 blade 1.6mm 1.25mm

Overall, the damascus blade is just a little slimmer. Don't know if a weight is really informational since the handles are so different (stabilized koa, copper and muskox vs burnt chestnut and horn). The workhorse is a great cutter but definitely not a laser and wedges ever so slightly in taller root veg. The damascus cuts like more like a laser. The tip flies through onions and this morning I cut up a bunch of potatoes and the slices just fall off the blade with zero sticking.

Additional benefit is the damascus is way less reactive than the standard kato cladding. I'll post the obligatory choil shots shortly.
 
Ok, Damascus choil. Damascus has a rounded choil and better finish.

IMG_0272.jpg
 
A shot of the spines side by side. Damascus on the left. The damascus blade is actually 10mm shorter than the workhorse.

IMG_0275.jpg
 
and the blades side by side. They cut the same thing, same amount and same care. I wipe often with a damp handy wipe and then wash in warm soapy water and dry thoroughly before putting up. Since they are in the daily rotation I didn't oil them. The workhorse is noticeably more reactive and wants to make an orangish patina.

IMG_0276.jpg


IMG_0277.jpg
 
Smurf, Thanks for the comparison - it is a great pictorial and informational comparison. Now, If only you could tell me where I can pick up a Damascus 240 Gyuto for a reasonable price ;-)
 
Smurf,
This is great info. Basically confirmed what my speculations were. My STD 240 is also patina resistant and very hard, almost a Honyaki feel to it. BTW, your knife probably has the nicest Damascus pattern I have ever seen. Nice score!
 
Chicagohawkie said:
Smurf,
This is great info. Basically confirmed what my speculations were. My STD 240 is also patina resistant and very hard, almost a Honyaki feel to it. BTW, your knife probably has the nicest Damascus pattern I have ever seen. Nice score!
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I was incredibly happy with the damascus when I opened the package. I just did a quick measure of the blades but I suspect the are convex in two dimensions. The damascus knife, although thinner, seems at least as stiff as the workhorse even though it's thicker. Can't say for sure but it seems that way. Also, the damascus knife was one of the sharpest out of the box Japanese knives I've had. On par with Shigefusa's without the super chippy edge. I wonder if he uses a different cladding for the workhorse's. I've got a 180 standard kato and it seems a little less reactive too. I should have them all back this week so I'll post a family shot next Friday. Two of them still need new furniture though lol.
 
jacko9 said:
Smurf, Thanks for the comparison - it is a great pictorial and informational comparison. Now, If only you could tell me where I can pick up a Damascus 240 Gyuto for a reasonable price ;-)
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Lol, define reasonable. I'd love to get a couple more with this quality of damascus. Pricey though.
 
Smurfmacaw said:
Lol, define reasonable. I'd love to get a couple more with this quality of damascus. Pricey though.
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Actually the prices listed on JNS seem reasonable other vendors however seem to be looking for a premium markup. I agree that knife is one of the best I've seen, quite remarkable.
 
I'm really interested to see the damascus on the 210 that TJ got in the last frenzy. I'm on the west coast so the email came out while I was still sleeping :curse: The pic in the email is pretty low res but it looks like a nice one. If it cuts anything like the 240 I have he's got a winner.
 
Smurfmacaw said:
I'm really interested to see the damascus on the 210 that TJ got in the last frenzy. I'm on the west coast so the email came out while I was still sleeping :curse: The pic in the email is pretty low res but it looks like a nice one. If it cuts anything like the 240 I have he's got a winner.
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I just looked at my Konosuke Fujiyama Blue #2 Gyuto in 210 and even thought I like it for some things, I think I'm going back to the 240mm length. Now, getting a Kato in damascus in either length is going to be problematic since I'm also on the West Coast and I would have to get out of bed during one of my "old man" nature breaks and check my computer instead of going right back to sleep - you young guys will find this out years from now ;-)
 
Actually he varies the times he sends the emails out. I've been sitting there at 0630 drinking my coffee and seen them come in so it really is just kind of a luck thing.
 
Smurfmacaw said:
Actually he varies the times he sends the emails out. I've been sitting there at 0630 drinking my coffee and seen them come in so it really is just kind of a luck thing.
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Yes luck and a readiness to spend the amount these cost. I have actually been looking at the email and they were available but, I was not as informed as I needed to be to pull the trigger so fast and while I mulled it over (30 minutes) they were gone!

Now that I have learned that lesson, I won't hesitate next time.
 
Ha ha! If you don't pull the trigger immediately you will miss out. Any hesitation will mean thinking about the next batch for months!
 
It's weird. I live in the same time zone as Maxim. He usually sends out his mails when I'm at work. I get them on my phone and my phone does "ding". So quite often I'm able to reply just 10 seconds after receiving his mail. But every time I click on the link in the mail, the knives have sold out. Am I doing something wrong? (Since some of you guys still see the knives listed half an hour later.)
 
Chicagohawkie said:
Ha ha! If you don't pull the trigger immediately you will miss out. Any hesitation will mean thinking about the next batch for months!
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Exactly, buy first think later. If all else fails you can sell it on BST in about 8 seconds for what you paid for it.
 
I might meet Kato soon, so I will ask him about his grind. Find this thread mildly amusing. ))

I think we sometimes look for things that are not there. Every maker finds a geometry that he is comfortable with working and sticks with it. Some pick fancy geometry - like Shigefusa, that require forging geometry in and then at least partially shaping the blade by hand. It's not because they like to overkill it, it is because that is the most efficient way of doing it - take a look at the transition from the tang to the spine near the handle and also note the thickness of the blade at the heel, and try to do it on a belt grinder.)) Shigefusa clearly prefer S grind (to lighten the blade below the spine - axes and razors are often ground that way too) over other geometries, but with a caveat - it has to be san mai, mild carbon steel clad. That stuff one can shape by hand with a scraper. Can't do this on a fully hardened steel efficiently - hence, you won't see Shigefusa doing it.

Kato knives are thick convex and he is found of this geometry. Each knife I have seen was slightly different, which is not unusual for hand-made knives, but in a nutshell, they all are ground in similar fashion - convex that follows thickness of the spine. There are nuances to Kato geometry, which I won't discuss, but things are not as complicated as seem to appear in the posts. The convex geometry makes Kato knives cut they way they cut, fascinating many in the process.

Mizuno knives are asymmetric convex - I have only seen them ground for right-hand users though I am sure he can grind for left-hand users as well. That's why two sides look different - they are ground differently. Again, there are nuances to Mizuno geometry as well, and it might slightly vary from knife to knife, but overall, all carbon blades I have seen from Mizuno, san mai and honyaki, were asymmetric convex. Stainless I think were symmetric convex, but I don't believe they were made by Mizuno, though they stamped them and marketed them as Mizuno.

Things that are common to all Japanese knives, hand-made knives that is, they are all thinned by hand and sharpened by hand.
 
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