Knife recs for a newbie

[LilB0kChoy]

LOCATION
What country are you in?

USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in?

Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?

Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Open to suggestions but I like the 190mm I have now and prefer my 8 inch Wusthof over the 7 inch.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

$600 with a focus on bang for buck

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

At home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for

slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, trimming meats


What knife, if any, are you replacing?

None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Mostly pinch or hammer

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Rock, slice, and push

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

In order of preference:
Comfort
Edge Retention
Better aesthetics

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?

Edge grain maple boos block and epicurean boards

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives?

Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS:

I really love the knife listed below but I’m worried I’d be over paying. I’m biased because I really love desert ironwood, I have a couple non kitchen knives with ironwood handles that I love the feel of.

​

 

[daveb]

Welcome.

Pls read the "Pls Read" thread. No linkys till the computer gets to know you.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

Welcome.

Pls read the "Pls Read" thread. No linkys till the computer gets to know you.

Thanks! I did read it, I just assumed because I copied the questionnaire and those links were included on the form they’d be fine. Live and learn.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

What do you use to sharpen?

 

[daveb]

In 5 posts they will be fine.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

What do you use to sharpen?

Right now I just have the Wusthof pull through sharpener but I have a Shapton 1000 and a BBW on my to buy list now that I have a Japanese knife.

 

[aporigine]

… the Wusthof pull through sharpener

 

[LilB0kChoy]

I can’t see what you posted but I can imagine what it is. I know that’s not a good sharpener but I didn’t at the time.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Right now I just have the Wusthof pull through sharpener but I have a Shapton 1000 and a BBW on my to buy list now that I have a Japanese knife.

Okay. Never, ever, like ever, put a Japanese knife in a pull-through. I'd say never put a Wusthof or hell, any other knife in one but definitely not a Japanese blade.

Are you going to buy the stones regardless of this purchase (meaning the $600 doesn't have to include them)?

What is the 190 you have now?

What is the knife you tried to link to and like?

 

[LilB0kChoy]

Okay. Never, ever, like ever, put a Japanese knife in a pull-through. I'd say never put a Wusthof or hell, any other knife in one but definitely not a Japanese blade.

Are you going to buy the stones regardless of this purchase (meaning the $600 doesn't have to include them)?

What is the 190 you have now?

What is the knife you tried to link to and like?

Yeah, I’ll get stones regardless. They’ve been on my to buy list for a while. I bought a San Mai folding knife a while ago as my EDC pocket knife and started learning about dos and don’ts on sharpening that type of steel when I got it.

The 190 I have now is: Sakai Takayuki 33-Layer VG10 Damascus Urushi Chef's Kengata-Gyuto Knife 190mm with Japanese Lacquered Oak Handle [SEIREN]

The one I like but question is:

Takeshi Saji R2(SG2) Black Damascus IR Japanese Chef's Gyuto Knife 210mm with Desert Ironwood Handle​

I question it in a large part due to the weight I think the handle has. I like the Sakai Takayuki because it feels so light and agile compared to the hilt heavy Wusthofs.

 

[aporigine]

I can’t see what you posted but I can imagine what it is. I know that’s not a good sharpener but I didn’t at the time.

I edited.
Pull-throughs are unkind to steel. I’m not certain, but the degree of tension they create ruins the molecular structure of the edge steel, leading to accelerated need to sharpen … and round and round it goes. Get thee a Shapton, young campaigner.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

I edited.
Pull-throughs are unkind to steel. I’m not certain, but the degree of tension they create ruins the molecular structure of the edge steel, leading to accelerated need to sharpen … and round and round it goes. Get thee a Shapton, young campaigner.

I definitely will! I'm planning to turn the Wusthofs into kitchen beaters and the nice Japanese collection I want to build will be my use only. My wife uses the Wusthofs and then leaves them sit until after we're done eating before cleaning them and putting them away. It probably doesn't hurt them but I use my knives, then wash and dry right away when I'm done. It just helps me to not forget to do it and I grew up learning that you need to take care of your tools and they'll last.

 

[aporigine]

Yeah, I’ll get stones regardless. They’ve been on my to buy list for a while. I bought a San Mai folding knife a while ago as my EDC pocket knife and started learning about dos and don’ts on sharpening that type of steel when I got it.

The 190 I have now is: Sakai Takayuki 33-Layer VG10 Damascus Urushi Chef's Kengata-Gyuto Knife 190mm with Japanese Lacquered Oak Handle [SEIREN]

The one I like but question is:

Takeshi Saji R2(SG2) Black Damascus IR Japanese Chef's Gyuto Knife 210mm with Desert Ironwood Handle​

I question it in a large part due to the weight I think the handle has. I like the Sakai Takayuki because it feels so light and agile compared to the hilt heavy Wusthofs.

If I were you I’d start with an Ogata or a Matsubara … no bling but all swing.

Other thought: if you mean breaking down poultry, there’s a specialist knife for that: honesuki.
(edit: or give that job to a Wüsthof.)

Unless you have an uncommonly light touch, going through poultry joints can damage a gyuto’s edge.

Knives are somewhat like cars. I have a subcompact Honda. Neighbor has a midweight Ford suv. We’re both glad not to have the other’s car. Decide what maker’s knives really work for you before you lay down the money for bling.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

So I'm gonna offer up a different approach...

The SP1000 is alright but I'd personally recommend a Shapton Glass 500 and 2k to go with that BBW. I use this very combo often. I'd also recommend an Atoma 140 diamond flattening plate.

The SG500 is great for rebuilding edges and will work for the Wusthof.

VG10 has a reputation for being difficult to sharpen. That is largely due to it being stubborn to properly deburr. R2/SG2 can be challenging for a new sharpener as well.

I'd advocate getting a lower cost, sharpener friendly knife to get started on. These knives will have good steel but will not have the best fit and finish. These knives will really help you learn sharpening without being too frustrating so that's a great way to start. Once you get confident in sharpening, you can go wild.

Have a look at the knives here:

https://knifejapan.com/

Also, have a look at this thread for other places to shop:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/

 

[LilB0kChoy]

If I were you I’d start with an Ogata or a Matsubara … no bling but all swing.

Other thought: if you mean breaking down poultry, there’s a specialist knife for that: honesuki.
(edit: or give that job to a Wüsthof.)

Unless you have an uncommonly light touch, going through poultry joints can damage a gyuto’s edge.

Knives are somewhat like cars. I have a subcompact Honda. Neighbor has a midweight Ford suv. We’re both glad not to have the other’s car. Decide what maker’s knives really work for you before you lay down the money for bling.

Thanks! This is the kind of information I need. I've been looking at all the makers and not knowing anything about them I've felt kind of lost. I'll definitely check out the Ogata's and Matsubara's.

I know Sakai Takayuki is a bunch of craftsmen's knives under one name, any idea where the one I have falls in terms of ranking? Is it more of an entry level with the Ogata's and Matsubara's being a step up?

 

[LilB0kChoy]

So I'm gonna offer up a different approach...

The SP1000 is alright but I'd personally recommend a Shapton Glass 500 and 2k to go with that BBW. I use this very combo often. I'd also recommend an Atoma 140 diamond flattening plate.

The SG500 is great for rebuilding edges and will work for the Wusthof.

VG10 has a reputation for being difficult to sharpen. That is largely due to it being stubborn to properly deburr. R2/SG2 can be challenging for a new sharpener as well.

I'd advocate getting a lower cost, sharpener friendly knife to get started on. These knives will have good steel but will not have the best fit and finish. These knives will really help you learn sharpening without being too frustrating so that's a great way to start. Once you get confident in sharpening, you can go wild.

Have a look at the knives here:

https://knifejapan.com/

Also, have a look at this thread for other places to shop:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/who-do-you-buy-from.52523/

Would the Wusthof Santoku I have be an ok sharpening practice knife or do you really want a Japanese type to practice on to learn how to sharpen that particular style? I ask because the Santoku was replaced by the nakiri and has sat, unused, in a drawer with a blade guard for over a year. I wouldn't beating on that one to learn since it doesn't;t get used.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Would the Wusthof Santoku I have be an ok sharpening practice knife or do you really want a Japanese type to practice on to learn how to sharpen that particular style? I ask because the Santoku was replaced by the nakiri and has sat, unused, in a drawer with a blade guard for over a year. I wouldn't beating on that one to learn since it doesn't;t get used.

The style of knife doesn't matter all that much. It's the steel and the grind. The Wusthof will have soft stainless steel and a thicker grind (at the edge) and neither of those are nice for sharpening. Even veteran sharpeners don't like sharpening German (and the like) knives. It's just a thing you have to do, get it over with, and on the lowest grit passable.

The paper steels (aogami, ginsan, shirogami) are very sharpener friendly steels and Japanese knives will typically have thin edges that respond readily. These harder steels take an edge quickly and deburr nicely.

I'd do some research and studying on sharpening.

 

[aporigine]

Thanks! This is the kind of information I need. I've been looking at all the makers and not knowing anything about them I've felt kind of lost. I'll definitely check out the Ogata's and Matsubara's.

I know Sakai Takayuki is a bunch of craftsmen's knives under one name, any idea where the one I have falls in terms of ranking? Is it more of an entry level with the Ogata's and Matsubara's being a step up?

I have several Sakai Takayuki. You could do much worse than to get a Grand Chef 210 with wa handle. I have a 210 petty in the line — good versatile knife
I’d steer clear of the 33-layer damascus. Sorta thick behind the edge, and I’m not fond of the buffer wheel “melted” tsuchime (hammered) finish.
Their Ginsan warikomi line is well-regarded, but checking the price at Hocho Knife, they’re expensive.

I have a Ginga ZA-18 gyuto 240 (a steel supposed to be a refinement on VG-10). It is lasery-thin, which I like. However I find myself reaching for a Doi or a Shibata instead of the Ginga.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Let me add a little...

I know that when you're excited to jump into nice knives and are looking at all these sexy options and then someone starts telling you to stop looking at those and focus on rocks, it sucks.

But, learning how to sharpen and care for the nice knives that you'll eventually get is extremely rewarding. It allows to always ensure you're enjoying what you're putting that money down for. It also will open up an entire world of options for you as you'll develop the confidence (probably a few more tools) to tackle all manner of steels.

Cutting some veggies with a wonderfully sharp knife that has an edge you gave it, far outweighs pretty handles and fancy patterns.

 

[aporigine]

I scored a set of Old Hickory carbon-steel knives for a song.
An Old Hickory or Forgecraft carbon knife is a cheap way to learn how carbon steel does on stone. And I use mine, even with the stableful of thoroughbreds in the blocks adjacent.

That said, once you learn to put a satisfying edge on a Wüstie or a Vic, you can sharpen almost anything. Only thing more unpleasant is some off-brand Chinese ware in 3cr13.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

I know that when you're excited to jump into nice knives and are looking at all these sexy options and then someone starts telling you to stop looking at those and focus on rocks, it sucks.

Actually, I’m perfectly okay with this. I bought the Takayuki instead of the Takeshi to scratch the itch without blowing a ton.

From that I’ve already learned the hammered look is ultimately not for me, not for an everyday knife at least.

I enjoy the ritual and the practicality of things over the aesthetics. I’m starting this knife journey for the same reason I made the shift to wet shaving years ago. To take joy in the mundane tasks through simple tools that are well cared for and that I know and am comfortable with.

 

[aporigine]

Actually, I’m perfectly okay with this. I bought the Takayuki instead of the Takeshi to scratch the itch without blowing a ton.

From that I’ve already learned the hammered look is ultimately not for me, not for an everyday knife at least.

I enjoy the ritual and the practicality of things over the aesthetics. I’m starting this knife journey for the same reason I made the shift to wet shaving years ago. To take joy in the mundane tasks through simple tools that are well cared for and that I know and am comfortable with.

Which Takayuki?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Actually, I’m perfectly okay with this. I bought the Takayuki instead of the Takeshi to scratch the itch without blowing a ton.

From that I’ve already learned the hammered look is ultimately not for me, not for an everyday knife at least.

I enjoy the ritual and the practicality of things over the aesthetics. I’m starting this knife journey for the same reason I made the shift to wet shaving years ago. To take joy in the mundane tasks through simple tools that are well cared for and that I know and am comfortable with.

For what it's worth, my collection is full of stuff from the Knife Japan website I linked above. You can also find a dedicated thread on knives from there. Michael (owner) has a bit of a cult following, including myself.

Oh, and there's several razor guys here.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

Which Takayuki?

This one

 

[aporigine]

This one

I will be curious to know what you think about it.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

I will be curious to know what you think about it.

Me too! I’ll be putting it to the test this next week. It surprised me how light it was until I started reading more about Japanese vs. German.

I can already tell I don’t like the finish on the handle. I’m considering sanding it smooth and refinishing it once I get a better feel for the knife overall.

 

[aporigine]

Me too! I’ll be putting it to the test this next week. It surprised me how light it was until I started reading more about Japanese vs. German.

I can already tell I don’t like the finish on the handle. I’m considering sanding it smooth and refinishing it once I get a better feel for the knife overall.

How thin is yours behind the edge?

 

[LilB0kChoy]

How thin is yours behind the edge?

I don’t have calipers to measure but here’s a picture

 

[aporigine]

View attachment 328686
I don’t have calipers to measure but here’s a picture

My question is more about the edge bevel. Many Japanese knives, especially from the hotshot sharpeners, have a zero or very thin (need a loupe to see) edge bevel. Makes for screaming performance but requires care in use. Others are, well, Eurogenerous like my Henckels.

 

[LilB0kChoy]

If I were you I’d start with an Ogata or a Matsubara … no bling but all swing.

@aporigine What do you think of this Ogata Bunka? Maybe make this my starter, learn to sharpen it and get some use under it before considering something more?