Moritaka - how long?

[Dave Martell]

Ok, thanks.

Ive never had an internet business selling knives, that is why i ask, is it possible that a certain vendor just received an order[for nakiri moritaka], went to store, picked up a box signed "nakiri" from moritaka section, packed it without looking inside the box[is the knife there or something maybe rats eaten half-a-handle] and posted it to the buyer?

How could you not notice that??!!

This subject has come up many many many times over the years. The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd. Now the next question we come to is if that even if they do inspect a knife before shipping, are they knowledgeable in what they're looking at to acknowledge a problem, meaning do they have enough experience to see issues? Then we follow that with do they care even if they do?

 

[bprescot]

The consensus has been that the idea that a retailer would send out a knife without looking at it first is absurd.

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong.

Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, on those specific products.

 

[clayton]

I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping cktg from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case

In addition, a while back I was considering buying a Moritaka and addressed my concerns with Mark. He responded that if I ever had such an issue with it he would take it back. I still did not buy one, but was okay with that response.

 

[Dave Martell]

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here. I think the notion that a retailer above a certain size has even the CAPACITY to inspect every product they sell is unrealistic. Best Buy doesn't open up every single one of their products to check, nor do any of the other big retailers. I would also bet (though I could be wrong) that even extraordinarily reputable small sellers don't hand inspect all of their inventory before shipping. Not to pick, but when you were selling Arashiyamas or Takenokos, did you inspect every single one of them before shipping, Dave? I'm guessing not, though I could be wrong, because the reputation those stones have is so strong.

Personally, I think a more fair criticism would be when a retailer KNOWS that certain manufacturers have issues and don't take steps to do some additional QC before shipping, on those specific products.

Ha I knew I should've drop in the Amazon disclaimer into my statement.

yeah it's unrealistic for a large scale retailer to do inspections at shipment, I get that, but it's not in my opinion for the small time knife dealers that we're talking about here to do just that and I'd state that it should be expected.

Oh yeah I definitely always have and always will expect each and everything that I sell. I can't claim that I inspected things that can't be opened without messing up packaging (like the Beston 500x) but where I can I do. I'm sure even though I do this I've still missed something here or there though - that's human. I'd bet that if I was selling a known problem item (like a Moritaka) that I'd be all over those things though.

 

[Dave Martell]

I might be misinformed here, but I really don't see what would be stopping XXXX from just dropping Moritaka as a brand if they believed there was an issue. All they would need to do is explain the situation and stop stocking them. No one would buy Moritakas and everyone would be something else instead. They stock plenty of other knives to make up for a lack of having Moritakas. I would understand if they chose to continue selling Moritakas despite alleged issues if it was the only knife line they carried, but that is not the case

Morals?

 

[maxim]

And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big
I also check my Beston before shipping it out. I have paranoia if i ship somthing that i did not check :scared4:

 

[bprescot]

And thats why you should choose small retailer instead of big
I also check my Beston before shipping it out

Haha. Well, that'll teach me. Hey, I said that I could be wrong!

 

[Dave Martell]

I don't want peoples hard feelings towards a retailer to taint a products reputation. If there are legitimate issues with either, they should be addressed.

Let's not continue towards any smear campaign, rather stick to relevant topics. Lack of customer service is absolutely relevant....

I agree here. I say this because even though I don't care for someone I still want the truth being said.

Also, for myself, I started my Moritaka mission way before CKTG even heard of them so I'm not singling them out in anyway, they're just one piece of the puzzle, a piece that I'm not focused at all on personally although I'm sure that it's hard for people to believe that based on past experience.

My #1 issue here is that people stop getting screwed - period!

My hope is that retailers hearing of these problems will address the issue with Moritaka and that Moritaka will listen and correct as necessary. If they don't then my hope is that retailers will put financial incentive behind their concerns that will motivate Moritaka to comply. The retailers hold a lot of power in this situation, they can make this right.

 

[maxim]

No you are not wrong i see how big retailers dont check what they send out, also thats why sometimes they prices are cheaper, they use less of they time !
I have still not found one single Beston that was bad, but i cant see why i should not check them. It gives peaceful mind

 

[Dave Martell]

Just for the hell of it, regarding customer service options for retailers.....


Option #1 - The Legal Obligation

We offer a money back guarantee if you ask for it.



Option #2 - The Moral Obligation

We will not sell products that are knowingly defective or have the propensity for defect.



Which option are you more comfortable with? Me, I like both.

 

[Salty dog]

The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.

Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.

I just concentrate on what I do.

 

[bprescot]

My hope is that retailers hearing of these problems will address the issue with Moritaka and that Moritaka will listen and correct as necessary.

This will never happen. Moreover, if you'll allow me to get my forum-troll on for a moment, I don't think they should. It seems obvious that they are doing just fine financially, and it seems like they are in the business of moving a large quantities of knives. They aren't craftsman creations, but neither are they stamped. They are priced within reach of a large number of consumers, and they will always be able to find more customers at that price point and for that half-way commodity/artisan product. And they are doing well right now. So, from a business perspective, why should they change? If slowing the process produces less volume and increases the price, putting them in a different league of knives, why should they do that, if only a small number of people are upset with their product? The only reason I could think of would be due to personal feelings of pride and ownership of my products, but I don't think that's the kind of business they are necessarily. I'm guessing, as I've never met the makers and have only spoken with Aoki twice, but that's the feeling I get.

If they don't then my hope is that retailers will put financial incentive behind their concerns that will motivate Moritaka to comply. The retailers hold a lot of power in this situation, they can make this right.

What is "right"? As long as they re-imburse or replace for the people that have an issue, making it as hassle free as possible, couldn't that be considered making it "right"? This isn't a case of a retailer knowingly selling a product with a life-threatening defect. This is a seller selling a product that might have a defect that most people won't notice. I guarantee you that despite learning quite a bit about knives vicariously (for which I'm eternally grateful) my wife wouldn't have noticed the hole in my problem-moritaka. For her, she would have thought that the knife was simply DAMN sharp (which it was) and cool looking. Couldn't the retailer continue to sell the product while STILL pressing the manufacturer and have that be "right"?


Editor's Note: Post is largely for discussion purposes only. If it were my store, I would probably not sell the knives, and if it were my factory, I'd try to isolate and resolve the issue. But just because I'd choose the resolution, doesn't mean it's the only right one...

 

[dav]

I brought 2 Moritaka's before I knew of the extent of the "problem" I love the look of them and they perform very well. I may well find down the line that issues arise (I hope not!) and I have had a straight edge to both and at the moment things are OK. I must admit the Kuro-uchi finished petty is much rougher and "rustic" than the supreme damascus gyuto I brought which is a nice knife to look at and use and which exhibits very good fit and finish - I did pay $330 plus post and tax over $400 (I hear the gasps lol) and would hope I've purchased a quality product if not I'm not the type to keep quite lol I will most likely try a Zakuri and Carter and may risk another Moritaka as I do like the profiles and appearance of some of their knives.

I don't know the depth of feeling towards C K T G on here but it does seem a shame that things have gone the way they have and that people can@t forgive and forget "for the greater good" as it seems the knife community is the worse for this?

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Something ironic occurred to me when viewing one of Dave martell's sharpening videos. The very knife that prompted him to start this thread (my 165 Moritaka nakiri), is the same knife he made his sharpening video's with. Is that not the very definition of schizophrenia?

So, Moritaka that has been making knives for over three hundred years, multiple generations, has all of a sudden, decided that it was a good idea to lower their quality. Doesn't seem like a very logical business model.

 

[Dave Martell]

Something ironic occurred to me when viewing one of Dave martell's sharpening videos. The very knife that prompted him to start this thread (my 165 Moritaka nakiri), is the same knife he made his sharpening video's with. Is that not the very definition of schizophrenia?

I think that was a Takeda nakiri

 

[bprescot]

I think that was a Takeda nakiri

Yeah, I was about to post the same.

 

[dav]

Mucho Bocho these were my thoughts around the fact that Moritaka has been a well regarded name and seem to have gone down the pan?? I must admit I've done a little research and the previous generation Moritaka was a regarded smith was he not trained by one of the greatest swordsmiths, whats happened lol Jon are youa able to elaborate as it seems they aren't the farming imlement maker which is discussed on here or not solely resigned to the manufacture of these implements. Or maybe some of the sources such as the "reliable" Japanese swordsmith articles/accounts I've come across are inaccurate.

And for the record I don't see the problem with well made traditional tools ( many on here make fun of producers of farming implements) my Gransfors Bruks axes are for me more useful and as beautiful as any knife and are hand forged also.

 

[clayton]

And for the record I don't see the problem with well made traditional tools ( many on here make fun of producers of farming implements) my Gransfors Bruks axes are for me more useful and as beautiful as any knife and are hand forged also.

+1 I have a GB hatchet. It is amazing.

 

[NO ChoP!]

If extra measures were taken, and the price reflected such, would we buy a Moritaka over a Takeda at like price points? Interesting notion to ponder....

 

[bluntcut]

From another angle...

The Moritaka nakiri pictured looks like a knife came from the b/blem bin because the bevel seem well-done albeit wavy smooth. Perhaps, over-grind was to remove cladding black gaps on bevel. To grind that many knives, the maker probably employed a grinding template, which prevent over-grind. Unless the over-grind was done on purpose.

 

[Namaxy]

I find myself agreeing with Salty again. Earlier I posted on the frustration of this subject - While my message may have not been clear, In essense I was defending the right of anyone to post either a positive or negative review of any given product and/or retailer, without getting caught up in the politics of the forums. Fair enough...but there is also the notion of not beating a dead horse.

My sense is we're not going to punish an e-tailer enough through any amount of forum flames to get them to change. They are what they are as Salty points out.....We're informed consumers...we can vote with our wallets.

I hope this doesn't come accross as inconsistent. I fully support Dave's customers and people like Mhlee gtting their proper refund/recourse. By the same token, I think getting everyone to agree retailer X is a ****, or getting retailer X to change their policy is aiming too high. Just pick retailer Y in the future.

 

[ifor]

I once went to a resto and had some bad food, I tried to tell the owner about it but he threw me out instead. My friend asked me why I would want to improve this resto if the they didn't want to listen to the customers.

These companies will not last if they continue to do things there way. Or they have found their niche and don't want to change or improve it.

 

[tk59]

...These companies will not last if they continue to do things there way...

I think you're giving consumers too much credit. Anyway, probably 99% of the masses buy Henckels, Wusthof and maybe Forschner. The other 1% buy Shun. Moritaka is probably nothing to a mainstream retailer.

 

[VoodooMajik]

I'm a few pages behind now, but I like how this was phrased. Some people care and some people don't. Doesn't matter what you are talking about or where it applies. I'm happy I read this thread, because I almost bought one. I would notice once this issue became evident down the road. I would be aggravated. I expect flaws from something like Tojiro. If I spend $200 on something knowing it's mid grade. It should still do it's ******* job.

Long story short, Thank you for furthering my ability to make educated purchases.

The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.

Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.

I just concentrate on what I do.

 

[maxim]

The restaurant down the street does a screaming business. They sell ill prepared low quality food at a low price. But Fred can still take Doris out on a Saturday night and still be able to enjoy it and afford it.

Do I complain? No, it's just a fact of life. Their customers are satisfied. Mine don't eat there.

I just concentrate on what I do.

lus1: on that !
But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his
And ask him to make it taste better.

 

[ecchef]

:goodpost: That's a friggin' great analogy Maxim.

 

[steeley]

lus1: on that !
But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his
And ask him to make it taste better.

=+++ 1

 

[VoodooMajik]

Perfect analogy...

lus1: on that !
But i think Daves problem is not other restaurant, but the food his costumers bring from that restaurant to his
And ask him to make it taste better.

 

[Lefty]

I'm a few pages behind now, but I like how this was phrased. Some people care and some people don't. Doesn't matter what you are talking about or where it applies. I'm happy I read this thread, because I almost bought one. I would notice once this issue became evident down the road. I would be aggravated. I expect flaws from something like Tojiro. If I spend $200 on something knowing it's mid grade. It should still do it's ******* job.

Long story short, Thank you for furthering my ability to make educated purchases.

The pricing on many Moritakas is right there, just above Tojiro DPs, the last I looked. For the fun of exploring this option, if you could get a knife that was in this price range an it gave you great performance for two years of abuse/service, and then crapped out (the hole came through), would you still buy the knife? Arguably, that's a better "bang for the buck" than many knives we buy that end up getting broken/stolen/pushed into a drawer, isn't it?
I think with this way of thinking, it's safe to call a Moritaka a Hyundai Accent. They look pretty good, are affordable, but we realize it's just going to hold us over until we can get the BMW. However, in the meantime, it's actually a pretty solid little performer with a low initial investment.
If you are curious, I think I drive a Masamoto KS with an ebony handle and dark, two tone buffalo ferrule.

 

[Dusty]

Based on that analogy, I drive a tojiro dp gyuto that has been ground down over many years to make a short suji and is desperate need of some thinning. :O