Moving out: starting from scratch!

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Joost

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Hi guys,

As I will be moving out within a few months, I will need get myself a set of knives.
For as long as I've been into cooking, for about a year or two, I've been using Zwelling 4-star series knives.

As I don't quite have the resources to buy myself a full set of high-ranged knives and don't want to at the moment as I will be sharing the kitchen with housemates.

So for now, I am looking for a pairing and a 200mm chef's knife/gyotu which can take a beating, while being able to get a decent edge, and a chef's knife which I will only use myself.

The price of the first two knives, which will be in the kitchen, may be up to about 80 euro's for both, which is about 100 usd a the moment.
These will be the knives on which I will first practise sharpening.

For the third one, I have filled in the quiestionnaire:

LOCATION
What country are you in?
Netherlands


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
chef's knife

Are you right or left handed?
Right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Not sure, have never used a Japanese handle. Only Zwilling, Global, and supermarket knives.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
200-220mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Not really, what would you recommend?

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
200 euro's, preferably around 175


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
kitchen at home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
multi-purpose, some meat slicing as well as chopping/slicing veggies and herbs

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None, starting from scratch.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rocking and forward slicing

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Not as heavy as the Zwiling's I've used so far, like the weight of the Global G2 18cm santoku. Curved edge.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Love the damascus pattern.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
balanced knife, expect it to be

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Right out of the box, multifunctional knife

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I don't mind sharpening monthly


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
bamboo/wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
yes, but with honing steel only, sharpening stones are high on the wishlist.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes




Looking forward to your advices!
thanks in advance
 
Hiya,
I'm still a bit new at this, so hopefully the other guys can correct me where I go wrong.

You absolutely do not need a "set" of high end knives.
If you are just getting started towards the deep end of knives
and with you just moving out, thus financially responsible, I think you should learn where the price : performance point is and ride that edge.

Lay down some ground rules,
Only you get to use chef knife and maintenance equipment (#1 - #3)
Roommates can only use paring and bread knife (#4 and #5).
You learn to stay responsible for your chef knife, and keep it exclusively yours.



The kit I think you need is:

1. Chef Knife/Gyuto. For home use, I recommend 210mm/8". $50 Starting point Tojiro DP. Then all your extra budget goes here.
2. Hone. 12" ceramic. $25 USD
3. Sharpening stone. Combo stone. $50 USD
4. Paring knife. Cheap. Your roommates can and will use this. $5 USD Starting point: Victorinox Forschner Fibrox 3.5" paring knife.
5. Bread knife. $15 USD Starting point: Victorinox Forschner Fibrox 12" bread knife.



IMHO, Getting this spread of gear is your cooking essentials.
Total is $145 USD.
And any extra budget you have goes to turning that Tojiro DP into a better knife, aka, getting you a damascus cladding.
 
Not sure where exactly you are located within Netherlands, but checkout this shop http://www.japansemessen.nl/ they got quite a wide selection of nice Japanese knives. Tadafusa, Tanaka, Yamawaku are just some of the brands on the more affordable side that I personally would check.

And two previous advices for Itinomonn and Tojiro are both good options to consider.
 
I really like Itonomonn, but the one linked looks flatter than others I've seen. The OP suggested some curve to the blade, so I would suggest looking at the current versions to see which one suits you the best for your style of cutting. Skip the honing rod and just get an inexpensive stone...combination 1k/6k by King is a good starting point. I would suggest a couple of Forschners to round out your request.
 
The Opinel carbon paring seems like another good, cheap option that will keep your budget for the chef's knife.
 
+1 on getting a tojiro Dp knife. It's cheap and great price for the knife you get!
 
Welkom, Joost. +1 to much advice, but particularly Culverins. All of the knife suggestions are great value for money. And if you mail Japansemessen.nl they can give you advise or you could even visit them.
 
Is it just me or is japansemdssen.nl not very user friendly? Having a hard time navigating through the site but I'm guessing the translator app isn't too efficient for the job
 
The site in Dutch is ok. Not great, but ok. They use Google Translate for translation and that's not very good.
 
Welcome to the forum. A lot of good information already in response to your thread. JNS Stones is in EU. The Itinomonn 210 gyuto should blow your soaks off compared to what you have been using. Learning to freehand on stones is a must no matter how much you pay for a knife:)
 
Welcome to the forum.

I second Culverin's recommendation. Get something decent and cheap (under $60 usd). The 210 Tojiro Gyuto and Victorinox/Opinel/Herder paring knife is a great place to start. Get a good stone. I recommend spending a little more on a great 1000 or 2000 grit artificial stone.

Try that for 6 months to a year. If your roomate trashes your knife, you won't cry. If you get truly obsessed with knives, you can move up to the next step.

Personally, I'd recommend getting a Heiji Gyuto if you still have the bug 1 year later. The semistainless is easy to maintain, and takes an edge as good as white steel (in my limited experience). He has a special price on 210 gyuto and 180 santoku, since they're geared to households. I think it's around $135-150 usd? THAT is amazing knife!

Anyways, don't overdo it right away. Give yourself time.
 
Thanks all for the advice!

I really like the Ittomon range of knives, Heiji's are a bit expensive starting at usd250..
Yamawaka gyuto looks nice as well.
A question that came into mind: do blades from different manufacturers, made from the same steel, differ significantly in quality?
While searching the internet a little more, I stumbled upon an brand called 'Eden'.
They have a VG10 steel series, either damast or normal, with a damast 180mm santoku for just 42 euro.
This sounds like a complete bargain to me, supposing steel quality = blade quality.
 
Every steel needs a proper heat treating, so that's basically why you can often hear advice to get a knife from certain maker, regardless of particular steel type. But even well HT steel still needs to be properly shaped (forging/grinding) in order to became a good cutter.

42€ won't brake a bank, so you might get one of those Eden knives and see whether it's something you like. But if you end up with a mediocre cutter that chips easily — that's not the fault of VG10 steel :)
 
Smithing is more important than steel. Two knives in, for example, Blue #2 can vary wildly in quality. I would any day rather take a good smith with mediocre steel than a poor smith with expensive steel. A poor smith will make a bad knife out of 52100 while a great smith will make a great knife out of 52100.
 
Joost, I'm not sure if you're looking at the same website as me?
http://www.nakayaheiji.co.jp/contents/hocho/hocho-English.html

I'd recommend directly emailing Nakaya Heiji, since you're outside of the US.
It's likely a lot less expensive than buying through John.

If you're in the US, it'd be pretty similar in cost. John has great support. Shipping from Japan is really expensive!
When I bought my 240 ss gyuto from Heiji last July, it was $250. Shipping was $150.

My most recent quote for a 180 santoku SS was $156. This was two months ago.

-Matt
 
Joost, I'm not sure if you're looking at the same website as me?
http://www.nakayaheiji.co.jp/contents/hocho/hocho-English.html

I'd recommend directly emailing Nakaya Heiji, since you're outside of the US.
It's likely a lot less expensive than buying through John.

If you're in the US, it'd be pretty similar in cost. John has great support. Shipping from Japan is really expensive!
When I bought my 240 ss gyuto from Heiji last July, it was $250. Shipping was $150.

My most recent quote for a 180 santoku SS was $156. This was two months ago.

-Matt

Slight tangent but how the hell did you have such expensive shipping?! The norm from japan is like $10-$30. Back on topic I will throw my support in for itinomonn if you want a well finished knife for a cheap price, been trying to get my hands on one for a while!
 
I found an Eden 180 santoku vg10 in a scratched box for 33 eur, couldn't contain myself and ordered it together with a 1000/3000 and a 240/600 stone.
Nice for sharpening practice and allround kitchen knife which anyone can use.
The 240/600 stone was mainly bought because of the huge amount of truely dull knives lying around at my parents.
Because, well, who do you think will be sharpening all knives in the family for the next few years?

Matt, checked out the site you just posted, 16800 JPY is 123 eur at recent rates ex delivery.
Thanks for making my choice even more difficult.

While testing the Eden, I will keep checking the pricing as the euro is terribly low at the moment.

Right now, I'm still in doubt whether I think stainless is a true advantage over aogami for me.
Knives that caught my eye, all 210 gyuto:
www.japansemessen.nl/a-37818509/tanaka/shigeki-tanaka-jp-aogami-damascus-gyuto-chefsmes-210-mm/
http://www.japansemessen.nl/a-26870574/sn-serie/tadafusa-sn-01-gyuto-chefsmes-210-mm/
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/
and the 210 stainless gyuto by Heiji.

All 210 gyuto, first two from aogami #2, third one from semi-stainless(?) and the fourth from full stainless steel.
 
Don't believe Heiji makes a stainless knife...he has a semi-stainless core with stainless cladding.
 
Don't believe Heiji makes a stainless knife...he has a semi-stainless core with stainless cladding.

So the same as the Itinomonn?

The difference between stainless and 'ordinary' steel is obvious, but where dus semi-stainless lie regarding properties?
Somewhat in half way? Near stainless?
 
So the same as the Itinomonn?

The difference between stainless and 'ordinary' steel is obvious, but where dus semi-stainless lie regarding properties?
Somewhat in half way? Near stainless?

Semi-stainless vs stainless:
Semi-stainless will get a light patina instead of staying super shiny.
Good semi-stainless tends to get a bit sharper than some stainless (440C, VG10), but be MUCH easier to sharpen (in my limited experience). AEBL is a great stainless btw, and one of my faves. I haven't tried ginsanko yet, but I really love sandvik/uddelholm steel.

Semi-stainless vs non-stainless
Much lower maintenance. If you're the type to leave your knife on the board for 5 minutes or more, you'll likely benefit from some form of stainless or semi-stainless blade. On some acidic foods, the edge will notable degrade during cutting or if in contact with a marinade. Bear in mind that you can put a protective coating of oxide (patina, cold-blue, etc) to protect carbon.

In short:
The aim of semi-stainless steel is to have a high performance blade that is less upkeep than traditional high-carbon.

Personally, I think it's wise to start a bit cheaper before jumping straight to a Shigefusa kitaeji. The most expensive knife won't always be the best for your style of cutting.

ps. If you don't mind a fixer upper, I've heard great stuff about the Tanakas. You may want to try a ginsanko (great steel) or VG-10 (Fancy damascus) blade. It's a fixer upper, but will get you very familiar with your knife.

pps/ Do *not* use a honing steel with your J knives. Please!

ppps. You may also want to consider the Lee Valley Peasant chef knife. It's cheap, well made, and has a great gaurentee. It's not exotic or Japanese, but it will kick the butt of any Sab in that size range.
 
FWIW, my heiji confuses me in a good way.

My hobby is guitarbuilding, so I've collected a number of blades (chisels, planes, knives) of various steels. In general, I find that steels act very different:
German is mushy and soft. Can take a great edge, but won't hold it. Some exceptions with older handforged stock. Gummy to sharpen. Swiss chisels seem to use this steel too.
Japanese steel is very hard. Cheaper Japanese white steel is brittle. Better handforged white steel is much tougher. Blue steel is pretty tough, but not as sharp as white (but used more on hand planes). This is a pleasure to sharpen.
Good Swedish steel is tough, sweet to sharpen, and holds a great edge. It's not quite as good as the better hand-forged japanese steel, but definitely decent. The best of the old British chisels were made with this steel.

The Heiji acts like great white steel in the sharpening department (hard to describe), but it holds it's edge ridiculously well.
Heiji uses a proprietary heat treat with his steel and it acts like nothing else that I've used (my Masashige chisels take a similar edge, but will rust if you leave it alone for 15 minutes). It's really hard to talk about because it's very different from other steels (ginsanko, AEBL, VG10) that I've played with. I'm not sure if it's D2? It doesn't act like D2.

One thing to bear in mind, Heiji is primarily a saw-maker. He's supposed to be the best saw-maker in Japan. Making a hand-forged saw in the old ways is incredibly difficult--I daresay significantly more difficult than making a knife. The steel must be thinner, harder, but also more resilient than a knife.

Anyways, I'm a Heiji fan (of course, I don't have any other fancy knife makers like these other chaps.) I'm sure that other guys make great knives too :D
 
Has anybody picked up a Heiji Wa Gyuto? If so your thoughts please.
 
Has anybody picked up a Heiji Wa Gyuto? If so your thoughts please.

Great cutters! A bit thicker at the spine than some like...a bit heavier/longer than some like...fairly tip heavy...not the easiest to sharpen correctly...in short, one of the best knives I've ever owned...definitely a licorice knife...
 
Great cutters! A bit thicker at the spine than some like...a bit heavier/longer than some like...fairly tip heavy...not the easiest to sharpen correctly...in short, one of the best knives I've ever owned...definitely a licorice knife...
+1 one of the knives that will never leave my kit.
 
After using the Eden for a week:
-heavy (230g, near the weight of my 230mm zwilling chef's knife at 240g)
-balancing point is in the handle itself, which I don't quite like.
-very wide at the top
-edge retention is worse than a zwilling, even with the 36 degree edge which it has on delivery.

But hey, for just 32 euro incl shipping, as I found one in sale without damast, I'll be a happy user and able to let it lie around in the kitchen!

Regarding the more sophisticated knives: I've chosen the Heiji 210 gyuto, as it seems to have more curve in the blade than the Itinomonn.
From now on: saving to buy one..
 
Been living in office.

I have no idea why shipping was so expensive on my order. Insurance?

I think you made a great choice on 210 gyuto.

I have a 240 mm (actually 256 mm), and it's too big for most kitchens. It looks like a brute, but is surprisingly nimble. Love mine...and I don't like gyutos!
 
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