Much Help Needed Regarding Japanese Knives

[HappyDaisy]

Hello everyone, I am brand new here and new to the world of Japanese knives, I do not have anything fancy, in fact all I have for Japanese currently is a Shun Blue 6 inch butchery knife...

I will fill out the questionnaire and maybe get some help from all the knowledgeable folks on here

LOCATION

Canada


KNIFE TYPE

I need lots of help here, I need a knife for slicing and cubing meats (pork, beef, chicken) and I also need a knife to prepare all sorts of veggies.

Are you right or left handed?

Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Japanese Handles Only

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Open To Ideas

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

This is open for discussion as I will need a few knives, but $2 000 would be a starting point



KNIFE USE

Preparing meats and Vegetables for professional purposes

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

All of the above except anything to do with bones as all product is without bone when it gets to my counter

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

I have been using Henckle Rocking Santoku, Henckle Chinese Chefs Knife, Henckle Boning Knife and also a Shun Blue 6 in Nutchery Knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch when chopping, regular and combo

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Link seems broken but I will try to explain,

I slice meat either front to back or reverse depending on what seems to work best for that cut/type of meat and size of cut I am making

I often rock chop when mincing

I prefer to chop veggies without rocking when not mincing

I also have to trim fat from large slabs of meat A LOT


What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I really want something that will chop veggies better in the sense of cleaner cuts (completely through the veggie) and a knife that can slice through meat easily and cube meat easily...I find what I am using now (Henckles) to be sticky and often times the blade doesn't glide into the meat, it almost sits on top. Yes I have whetstones and know how to use them.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Do not want Damascus clad, prefer core less.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Handle needs to be functional and of good fit and finish.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Less wedging, better food release, very important

Reactivity of metal is irrelevant I just want a great balance between being able to get a sharp edge and hold it without being too chippy

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

I don't mind sharpening as it is part of the routine, however a balance between a great edge and great edge retention is important



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Wood or epicurean

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes using whetstones (400 1000 5000)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

My budget is around 2000 USD to get however many knives I need (could be two or could be 5, I just don't know lol) to complete the following tasks:

Chopping Veggies
Rock Chopping Veggies to mince them
Cutting Meat into Cubes about 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch
Cleaning Fat Off Slabs Of Meat (pork, bison, elk, beef)

I do not need:

Damascus Clad, Mirror Polish etc

I do want:

Ability to get really sharp and hold an edge without being too chippy

Wa Handle

Any help would be greatly appreciated...I have very little knowledge so I am sorry in advance If I have left anything out that I should have mentioned or my terms in explaining things are incorrect. We also have no shops in town that I can go see any if the wonderful smaller Japanese Blacksmith made knives, all we have are the Miyabi, Shun, Mac etc which I am sure are fantastic companies, I believe I am just in the market for something a little less mainstream to get a bit more of that special charm and support smaller companies.

 

[Nemo]

You will be able to get a number of very good knives with your budget. You will definitely need a gyuto, which is a do it all chef's knife. 240mm is probably the most common size. 210mm where space is tight. 270mm for high volume prep when there is plenty of room (keep in mind that I'm a home cook not a pro). You may also want to look at a suji (sujihiki/ slicer) for portioning, trimming and slicing meats. Don't let either of these blades be used on bony meat, frozen food or other hard stuff. Get a boning knife for boning. FWIW, I use a cheap Victorinox 5" boning knife but there are other options.

Can we clarify a couple of areas where your requirements are a bit at odds?

1) You want a knife with less wedging AND better food release. While whatever knife is recommended will likely be much better than Henkels in both areas, it's important to understand that there is a trade-off between the two. This is because grind features (such as convex blade face) which improve food release reqire a thicker blade. So you'll have to decide- do you want a super thin knife ("laser") with almost no wedging and poor food release or a thicker knife ("Workhorse Grind") with some wedging but excellent food release or a middlewight that is somewhere in between? With your budget, we could explore all 3!

2) You want a knife that has the "ability to get really sharp and hold an edge without being too chippy". The tradeoffs need a little clarification. Simple carbon steels (like white2, 1095) are easy to sharpen and will hold a very acute edge, but generally have poorer edge retention. More highly alloyed carbon steels are a little harder to sharpen and wont take quite as fine an edge (but still very acceptable for kitchen use) but have longer edge retention. Semistainless steels are mostly still pretty easy to sharpen, take a reasonably acute edge (but probably less so than most carbon steels), have pretty good edge retention and are much more stain resistant than carbon steels. Many stainless steels won't take as fine an edge and are a bit harder to make sharp, but edge retention ranges from good to extreme. I expect that a highly alloyed carbon steel like blue2 or blue super might suit your requirements, although you may want to consider semistainless knives.

When you say that you prefer core-less, do you mean that you want a non-clad (mono-steel) knife? Why so? There are definitely some good monosteel knives around but clad (san-mai) construction certainly has some benefits.

Also, be aware that the knives that will be discussed here have edges made of thin hard (and therefore brittle) steel. They do not tolerate lateral or torsional (twisting) forces well. If you rock chop with them, don't rotate the knife while the edge is in forceful contact with the board. Walk chopping is not a great technique for these knives. Don't scrape food with the edge (flip the knife and scrape with the spine instead). Besides, good knives excel at other cutting techniques (push slice, locomotive slice, guillotine & glide...) that were probably impractical with a Henckels, so you may find that you don't need to rock chop as much.

 

[daveb]

Can't tell where the decimal point is in your budget. Do you have 20K or a quarter?

 

[Hanmak17]

Recommend the following in any order

Watanabe Pro Nakiri 180 (for Mass annihilation of veggies)

Toyama 240 Gyuto (does pretty much everything well)

And a smaller petty of similar make

All of these knives are Blue steel, rock stars in terms of performance, take and hold an excellent edge, relatively easy to acquire, under 1k for the three leaving budget for a Suji and some stones.

 

[McMan]

You will be able to get a number of very good knives with your budget. You will definitely need a gyuto, which is a do it all chef's knife. 240mm is probably the most common size. 210mm where space is tight. 270mm for high volume prep when there is plenty of room (keep in mind that I'm a home cook not a pro). You may also want to look at a suji (sujihiki/ slicer) for portioning, trimming and slicing meats. Don't let either of these blades be used on bony meat, frozen food or other hard stuff. Get a boning knife for boning. FWIW, I use a cheap Victorinox 5" boning knife but there are other options.

Can we clarify a couple of areas where your requirements are a bit at odds?

1) You want a knife with less wedging AND better food release. While whatever knife is recommended will likely be much better than Henkels in both areas, it's important to understand that there is a trade-off between the two. This is because grind features (such as convex blade face) which improve food release reqire a thicker blade. So you'll have to decide- do you want a super thin knife ("laser") with almost no wedging and poor food release or a thicker knife ("Workhorse Grind") with some wedging but excellent food release or a middlewight that is somewhere in between? With your budget, we could explore all 3!

Nemo makes good points about the trade-off between food release (workhorse/heavyweight) and gliding through product (laser).
Thankfully, there's an easy answer here... because of your budget. Just get two gyutos. Seriously. It seems like you're working with a lot of different product and in different ways. So, maximize the benefits

In laser-land, Ginga is the classic. Takamura is nice too, but only goes up to 210. Watanabe and Toyama for the heavyweights.

Just spitballin', but you could get the set below, still have over 50% of your budget left, and maybe even live happily ever after...
--a 270 watanabe gyuto (~$375) or Toyama ($430)
--a 240 Gesshin Ginga 240 ($285)
--a 170 munetoshi butcher ($115)
--and a 180 petty (Takamura 180mm gyuto would be great here because it's short), or a Wakui 240 (great value at midweight), or a sujihiki, etc. etc.

 

[HappyDaisy]

You will be able to get a number of very good knives with your budget. You will definitely need a gyuto, which is a do it all chef's knife. 240mm is probably the most common size. 210mm where space is tight. 270mm for high volume prep when there is plenty of room (keep in mind that I'm a home cook not a pro). You may also want to look at a suji (sujihiki/ slicer) for portioning, trimming and slicing meats. Don't let either of these blades be used on bony meat, frozen food or other hard stuff. Get a boning knife for boning. FWIW, I use a cheap Victorinox 5" boning knife but there are other options.

Can we clarify a couple of areas where your requirements are a bit at odds?

1) You want a knife with less wedging AND better food release. While whatever knife is recommended will likely be much better than Henkels in both areas, it's important to understand that there is a trade-off between the two. This is because grind features (such as convex blade face) which improve food release reqire a thicker blade. So you'll have to decide- do you want a super thin knife ("laser") with almost no wedging and poor food release or a thicker knife ("Workhorse Grind") with some wedging but excellent food release or a middlewight that is somewhere in between? With your budget, we could explore all 3!

Excellent point! I am open to increasing my budget if need be and I would be more interested in the laser I believe as excellent slicing and cutting is more important to me.

2) You want a knife that has the "ability to get really sharp and hold an edge without being too chippy". The tradeoffs need a little clarification. Simple carbon steels (like white2, 1095) are easy to sharpen and will hold a very acute edge, but generally have poorer edge retention. More highly alloyed carbon steels are a little harder to sharpen and wont take quite as fine an edge (but still very acceptable for kitchen use) but have longer edge retention. Semistainless steels are mostly still pretty easy to sharpen, take a reasonably acute edge (but probably less so than most carbon steels), have pretty good edge retention and are much more stain resistant than carbon steels. Many stainless steels won't take as fine an edge and are a bit harder to make sharp, but edge retention ranges from good to extreme. I expect that a highly alloyed carbon steel like blue2 or blue super might suit your requirements, although you may want to consider semistainless knives.

I am leaning towards a high carbon, to clarify I like something that would be able to get really sharp and hold an edge, ease of sharpening is lowest on my list of priorities. ZDP 189, Hap 40 are possibilities but I like the reactivity of high carbon steel.

When you say that you prefer core-less, do you mean that you want a non-clad (mono-steel) knife? Why so? There are definitely some good monosteel knives around but clad (san-mai) construction certainly has some benefits.

I think I prefer a clean aesthetic and just like the idea of one metal, the cladding kind of throws me as some is super decorative, others are more simple...and I would prefer to keep the knives all having the same mono slab look as opposed to a variety of clad finishes.

Also, be aware that the knives that will be discussed here have edges made of thin hard (and therefore brittle) steel. They do not tolerate lateral or torsional (twisting) forces well. If you rock chop with them, don't rotate the knife while the edge is in forceful contact with the board. Walk chopping is not a great technique for these knives. Don't scrape food with the edge (flip the knife and scrape with the spine instead). Besides, good knives excel at other cutting techniques (push slice, locomotive slice, guillotine & glide...) that were probably impractical with a Henckels, so you may find that you don't need to rock chop as much.

If you click on the quoted response above my answers are in bold...

Thank you so much for all of the advice and the comprehensive details, I hop my answers to your questions have provided some clarification...also budget is open, I want to buy once and buy right without having to add on or improve quality down the road.

 

[HappyDaisy]

Can't tell where the decimal point is in your budget. Do you have 20K or a quarter?

Hi there, I had two thousand in mind, if that is too low to obtain what I may need I am okay with increasing to what I need to. These are tools for my trade and I will use them daily for as long as I am able.

 

[HappyDaisy]

Nemo makes good points about the trade-off between food release (workhorse/heavyweight) and gliding through product (laser).
Thankfully, there's an easy answer here... because of your budget. Just get two gyutos. Seriously. It seems like you're working with a lot of different product and in different ways. So, maximize the benefits

In laser-land, Ginga is the classic. Takamura is nice too, but only goes up to 210. Watanabe and Toyama for the heavyweights.

Just spitballin', but you could get the set below, still have over 50% of your budget left, and maybe even live happily ever after...
--a 270 watanabe gyuto (~$375) or Toyama ($430)
--a 240 Gesshin Ginga 240 ($285)
--a 170 munetoshi butcher ($115)
--and a 180 petty (Takamura 180mm gyuto would be great here because it's short), or a Wakui 240 (great value at midweight), or a sujihiki, etc. etc.

I like the suggestions and greatly appreciate it...this sounds like a great set up.

I have had my eye on this as my main Gyuto, any thoughts or suggestions as to comparable knives or better ones in the same price range?

I suppose I will increase my overall budget lol

 

[HappyDaisy]

Recommend the following in any order

Watanabe Pro Nakiri 180 (for Mass annihilation of veggies)

Toyama 240 Gyuto (does pretty much everything well)

And a smaller petty of similar make

All of these knives are Blue steel, rock stars in terms of performance, take and hold an excellent edge, relatively easy to acquire, under 1k for the three leaving budget for a Suji and some stones.

I will look into these right now! Thank you so much!

 

[Nemo]

Have you seen a san mai with a patina on it? IMO they look fairly similar to monos with a patina.

Some people do like the feel of a monosteel on the board (there is significant argument about whether there is a scientific basis for this). Some monosteels are differntially hardened ("honyaki") but expect to pay a lot extra for these.

 

[HappyDaisy]

Have you seen a san mai with a patina on it? IMO they look fairly similar to monos with a patina.

Some people do like the feel of a monosteel on the board (there is significant argument about whether there is a scientific basis for this). Some monosteels are differntially hardened ("honyaki") but expect to pay a lot extra for these.View attachment 45821

Beautiful photo and that is a great point.

 

[HappyDaisy]

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...-kagekiyo-270mm-white-1-mizu-honyaki-wa-gyuto

The link above is something I tried posting before however it didn't work...if I increase my budget I was thinking of adding something like that in to the mix, however does any one have any suggestions or comments about the knife in the link? Or alternatives?

 

[Nemo]

First photo was 3 san mais (FWIW, top is Hinoura Hyakuren 240mm, Middle is Sakai Jikko Akebono 240mm and bottom one is Watanabe 270mm, FWIW).

Photo below is of the Akebono compared to my Tansu Honyaki (differentially hardened monosteel):

 

[HappyDaisy]

First photo was 3 san mais (FWIW, top is Hinoura Hyakuren 240mm, Middle is Sakai Jikko Akebono 240mm and bottom one is Watanabe 270mm, FWIW).

Photo below is of the Akebono compared to my Tansu Honyaki (differentially hardened monosteel):

View attachment 45822

All are incredible looking, I suppose cladding is okay when it isn't a high polish mirror finish or Damascus finish (for my purposes as I think the high polish and Damascus claddings look stunning)

I really think I want to get a really nice gyuto and work around things from there...I just don't know what way to go if spending 1000-1500 on just the gyuto alone...some suggestions on nice, high quality steel in that price range would be greatly appreciated

 

[Nemo]

Well, a mirror polished knife will also patina (maybe a little more slowly). That Tansu had a mirror polish on it.

1500 USD knives can be very nice, but you will get similar performance from many cheaper knives.

I have a Kagekiyo san mai in white 2 (it was my first carbon knife). It's a good knife. It's fairly thin, but the wide bevels can cause a little wedging higher up the blade. I don't know whether the grind on the honyaki or the JKI/ Gesshin version is the same. The lacquer handle is pretty but quite small and can get a little slippery when wet or greasy. I'm not sure if the JKI vesrion has a more textured handle.

You can certainly spend well north of $1000 on a knife, often on a honyaki but the performance will generally not be significantly better than knives costing half the price or less.

Do you want one expensive knife or do you want to try a few more affordable (but still excellent) knives so that you can get an idea of what is offered by differnt grinds? (this is a genuine question)

 

[HappyDaisy]

Well, a mirror polished knife will also patina (maybe a little more slowly). That Tansu had a mirror polish on it.

1500 USD knives can be very nice, but you will get similar performance from many cheaper knives.

I have a Kagekiyo san mai in white 2 (it was my first carbon knife). It's a good knife. It's fairly thin, but the wide bevels can cause a little wedging higher up the blade. I don't know whether the grind on the honyaki or the JKI/ Gesshin version is the same. The lacquer handle is pretty but quite small and can get a little slippery when wet or greasy. I'm not sure if the JKI vesrion has a more textured handle.

You can certainly spend well north of $1000 on a knife, often on a honyaki but the performance will generally not be significantly better than knives costing half the price or less.

Do you want one expensive knife or do you want to try a few more affordable (but still excellent) knives so that you can get an idea of what is offered by differnt grinds? (this is a genuine question)

Thank you so much again for your input and the honest answer to your question is...I actually would rather purchase knives that are less expensive that perform extremely well and fall into my needs...could you make some suggestions please? I really do appreciate the help!

I suppose maybe some vague guidance into recommended trusted online retailers as well if that is allowed etc.

 

[Lazyboy]

Suggestion for laser gyuto for slicing, push/pull cut/ trimming, and not bad for chopping, would definitely be "cleaner cuts (completely through the veggie)"

shibata kotetsu (Stainless Rg2), or shibata type iii (blue super, stainless clad), available from a few places but some links so you can see them:

http://couteliernola.com/shibata-kotetsu-gyuto-240mm/
http://couteliernola.com/shibata-kotetsu-type-iii-gyuto-240mm/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wRROrwVTuQ
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8altot75iOs

Another option is to buy a few knives at much lower $ (say 150-300 each) to find what blade profile/grind/hardness you like and works for you, then find one of many custom makers and talk with them to design what you want. There's a reasonable market for lightly used gyutos: you'll take a bit of a hit, but perhaps call it the fee to finding your happy place wrt blades.
(disclaimer, home cook, still new to J-knives, still learning what I like)

 

[refcast]

get this: ginga 270 white 2 gyuto

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...products/gesshin-ginga-270mm-white-2-wa-gyuto


it's what i use more than any other knife. its GREAT with meat, raw and cooked. because its so thin overall, there's less wedging when cutting through cold meat, which is a huge plus when cutting raw meat and especially fat.

if you find it's not enough, call or email jon, and ask -- he'll guide you to something in store or with some other option with another maker/ brand/store.

open the quote and i put specific answers

Hello everyone, I am brand new here and new to the world of Japanese knives, I do not have anything fancy, in fact all I have for Japanese currently is a Shun Blue 6 inch butchery knife...

I will fill out the questionnaire and maybe get some help from all the knowledgeable folks on here

LOCATION

Canada


KNIFE TYPE

I need lots of help here, I need a knife for slicing and cubing meats (pork, beef, chicken) and I also need a knife to prepare all sorts of veggies.

270 is the bulk prep size. knives can get too heavy and cause fatigue -- so often chefs top out with a 240 heavy or middle weight, or you can go to 270 lightweight.

Are you right or left handed?

Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

Japanese Handles Only

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Open To Ideas

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

This is open for discussion as I will need a few knives, but $2 000 would be a starting point



KNIFE USE

Preparing meats and Vegetables for professional purposes

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

All of the above except anything to do with bones as all product is without bone when it gets to my counter

gyuto is the all purpose knife -- start with gyuto for serious work. (other start points are santoku and nakiri -- for more domestic small stuff)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

I have been using Henckle Rocking Santoku, Henckle Chinese Chefs Knife, Henckle Boning Knife and also a Shun Blue 6 in Nutchery Knife

its a longgg knife compared to what you're using. its really nimble though, so you'll get used to it, and not putting stuff in front of it that might break the tip off. also --- very important for this knife, becareful not to stab the tip into the cutting board. its very thin and can bend or break off.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

Pinch when chopping, regular and combo

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

Link seems broken but I will try to explain,

I slice meat either front to back or reverse depending on what seems to work best for that cut/type of meat and size of cut I am making

I often rock chop when mincing

I prefer to chop veggies without rocking when not mincing

I also have to trim fat from large slabs of meat A LOT

you can rock chop with the knife -- just make sure the edge you put on it is tough enough for that. i do rock chop veggies with it at home.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

I really want something that will chop veggies better in the sense of cleaner cuts (completely through the veggie)

this will do it. best on carrots i've ever used.

and a knife that can slice through meat easily and cube meat easily...I find what I am using now (Henckles) to be sticky and often times the blade doesn't glide into the meat, it almost sits on top. Yes I have whetstones and know how to use them.

also this. easier and more control to slice thinnest slices even compared to high end knives (watanabe honyaki, hide yanagiba, teruyasu denka gyuto)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Do not want Damascus clad, prefer core less.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Handle needs to be functional and of good fit and finish.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Less wedging, better food release, very important

wedging -- yes less. food release -- yes less, because the knife is fully convexed and not mirror -suction cupped like shuns can be. but other knives offer more food release . . . its a compromise based on the grind of the knife. but i recommend starting with a 'laser' knife.

Reactivity of metal is irrelevant I just want a great balance between being able to get a sharp edge and hold it without being too chippy

start with simple lower alloy steel with great ht. ginga does this

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?

I don't mind sharpening as it is part of the routine, however a balance between a great edge and great edge retention is important

once again, the simple steel with great ht does this well

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Wood or epicurean

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

Yes using whetstones (400 1000 5000)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

My budget is around 2000 USD to get however many knives I need (could be two or could be 5, I just don't know lol) to complete the following tasks:

Chopping Veggies
Rock Chopping Veggies to mince them
Cutting Meat into Cubes about 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch
Cleaning Fat Off Slabs Of Meat (pork, bison, elk, beef)

Whoaaa you do actually do butchery...

I do not need:

Damascus Clad, Mirror Polish etc

I do want:

Ability to get really sharp and hold an edge without being too chippy

Wa Handle

Any help would be greatly appreciated...I have very little knowledge so I am sorry in advance If I have left anything out that I should have mentioned or my terms in explaining things are incorrect. We also have no shops in town that I can go see any if the wonderful smaller Japanese Blacksmith made knives, all we have are the Miyabi, Shun, Mac etc which I am sure are fantastic companies, I believe I am just in the market for something a little less mainstream to get a bit more of that special charm and support smaller companies.

start with one knife. use it for as longgggg as you can while thinking of gaps that could be improved upon. then get more knives. in your case, a sujihiki might work for the meat -- but frankly, i prefer the height of a gyuto, which lets you chop more easily, versus the lower height of a sujihiki which kinda cramps my hand.

i reaaallllly recommend you don't get honyaki as your first knife. Reallly. honyaki is mostly for the 'better' heat treat, which you can get, in various other ways that are somewhat comparable but not equivalent to honyaki heat treat results, with other makers that are non-honyaki. for instance, if you wanted easier sharpening, longer edge retention, sharper edge, compared to ginga you could get gengetsu / heiji / teruyasu fujiwara. but they'd be chippier. annoyingly. chippier -- at least for the TF and maybe the heiji (but they will cut!!!). the gengetsu shouldnt be chippy at all.

 

[Nemo]

Ok, so fo now, we'll narrow it down to mostly blue steel gyutos?

For a thinner knife, I really like the Akebono. A fairly flat profile (not ideal for rock chopping). Very thin behind the edge, less thin at the spine. This means that it feels robust (wont twist in the cut) but it can wedge a little in tall hard foods (whole pumpkin). There is a little convexity so food release is pretty good for its thinness (but not nearly as good as thicker knives). The blue2 steel is a joy to sharpen and has pretty good edge retention. It's clad in soft iron and the spine and choil are beutifully rounded. It has a nice ebony handle which puts the balance point at the pinch grip. I think it still comes with a hardwood saya.

Slighly less thin is Tanaka blue2 Nashiji. It blue2 clad in stainless steel (won't patina) . Curved profile. Wide bevel. Not quite as thin as Akebono but still thinnish and has better food release. The K&S version has beautifully rounded spine and choil and nice ebony handle.

A bit thicker is Gesshin Gengetsu. Flattish profile. Excellent food release for its thickness. Available in stainless clad white2 and stainless clad semistainless. A really good allrounder. The handle is burned chestnut. The spine and choil have been eased but not rounded. Did I mention that it's a really good allrounder?

It's worth looking at Mizuno Hontanren Akitada. Blue2 steel clad in iron. Thickness seems to vary a bit between thinner middleweight and heavier middleweight. Mine is a wide bevel and is a heavier middleweight. It has a fairly flat profile. Wide bevel is perhaps a little more difficult to maintain than the narrow bevel version (but really not that hard to learn and quite fun- let me know if you want to kniw more). Wedges a little but food release is good. Spine and choil can do with a bit of easing.

Mazaki is worth a look, even if it is white2. Mine is from K&S (different vendors seem to have differnt versions). Middling profile curve. Moderately thick grind. Good food felease. Spine & choil are rounded. Fit & finish on the blade face is not marvellous (pretty easy to fix, though). A semi mirror polish over coarse grind marks. The iron cladding is very reactive until it patinas. It's a wide bevel with convex wide bevels (similar to wide bevel Mizuno). Mine has a beautiful heart shaped gidgee handle but I think ebony octagonal is standard at K&S. The steel is very nice to sharpen. Edge retention is less than most blue2 but I think maybe more than most other white steel knives. A great value knife.

For a great in workhorse knife, look at Watanabe Pro. A pretty hard heat treatment of blue2 with good edge retention. Cladding is iron. Profile is a gentle curve. It has a tall profile and a thick convexed grind for excellent food felease. This is a heavy knife which will demolish huge piles of food in short order. Spine and choil were well eased but not rounded. Handle is basic magnolia (ho) wood.

In terns of trusted vendors, I have had good dealings with Knives & Stones here in Oz, Japanese Natural Stones in Denmark and Japanesechefknives in Japan.

In the USA, Japanese Knife Imports has a very good reputation. The owner, Jon is active on the forums and his point of view is generally well respected. Also, his is sharpening videos are excellent. Epicurean Edge and Bernal Cutlery are also well regarded vendors.

You may want to look at some Western Custom makers, but let's get you into a nice knife first.

 

[madelinez]

I can also vouch for Knives & Stones if purchasing from the Australian region. Otherwise Watanabe is very helpful if you want to purchase directly from him but he does get busy sometimes. If I was going to buy a new set of knives from scratch given what I've learnt over the past few months...

-Watanabe Pro Nakiri 180 - I bought a Takeda Nakiri instead and after trying both the Takeda has better food release but the Watanabe beats it in every other category (minus that handle).

-Mazaki 240mm Gyuto - Something I've only recently had the chance to try, if you're after a workhorse gyuto that doesn't cost as much as a Toyama then this is a good choice. There are more expensive options out there but diminishing returns...

-Laser Gyuto? - I don't have any recommendations here because I use my Nakiri for finer details and vegetables.

-Petty - I'm not an expert in this category so I won't give any advice.

I think the best advice I could offer is don't spend your $2000 budget in a single go. Work out what you like and start with better value offerings. Steel/Maker/Grind preferences are very dependent on the user and you may end up regretting your decisions down the track. I made that mistake.

Edit: I would also advise spending the premium on a honyaki, they're not great value and are hard to maintain. You should only get one if you know exactly what you want.

 

[psfred]

I'd suggest a different approach. Get a couple decent but inexpensive knives (Tojiro DP or similar) and see how you like them. None of the entry level ones will blow you away, perhaps, but you will quickly learn what you like and don't, and what you need vs want.

Japanese style knives handle rather differently than typical European knives both in use and a in sharpening. You won't be happy learning on a very expensive knife, stick with a "restaurant" grade one until you get used to them, then drop some cash.

Tojiro's will run you a couple hundred for the knives I'd suggest (I think, haven't bought any lately): Gyuto (240 or 270 -- I upgraded to the 270), a petty around 180 or 200, and a paring knife if you need one. Decent steel, fairly easy to sharpen, good edge retention, but also fairly easy to chip, so will quickly teach you how to handle them.

You also need sharpening stones -- no steels unless you are VERY good with them, and even then I'd not recommend them for high hardness steels, chips are almost inevitable.

 

[Xenif]

Welcome fellow Canadian, $2000 is a very handsome budget to be throwing around. Firstly, I think trying to find what you "love" to use can only be gained through some first hand experience, no matter if it is steel type, profile shape, grind, taper, weight, etc.
As much as we (KKF) love to spend your money for you (our favorite past time here) we also want you to find what you love (and then tell us why you love it).
I would start off with some of the most recommended intro 240 gyutos such as: Shigeki Tanaka, Wakui, Mazaki, Ginga, etc. Each can be found on multiple vendors, and they differ enough that you really get to get a feel for what you love. If you don't love them sell or trade them here on the forums until you find it. The next most recommended course of action is a decent and trusted petty knife (150-180mm). That's how I would spend my first $500 of the budget.
Sometimes great deals, unique knives, etc pop up here on BST so save the $1500 and maybe you will find your love there for an awesome price (I got lucky and happened to me).
Good luck and once again welcome down the rabbit hole.

 

[Nemo]

The only problem with the cheaper knives such as Tojiro and Fujiwarra Kanefusa is that they need some serious thinning to perform well. It will be easier to see what you like if you start with a knife that has a more optimised grind.

At the other end of the scale, I have heard that taking a really exxie (oz slang for expensive) knife to work is somewhat fraught. I have heard stories of knives going "missing", knives being "borrowed" and comming back damaged and knives being repurposed as screwdrivers or can openers. I reckon that this would be much easier to cope with if it was a 300 or 400 buck knife than if it was a 2000 buck honyaki.

+1 on using stones not steels. The mode of failure for edges made of hard steels is mostly microchipping or abrasion, not rolling over anyway. Jon B has a pretty good video explaining this:



It's actually worth looking at his whole sharpening playlist if you haven't already.

 

[HappyDaisy]

Suggestion for laser gyuto for slicing, push/pull cut/ trimming, and not bad for chopping, would definitely be "cleaner cuts (completely through the veggie)"

shibata kotetsu (Stainless Rg2), or shibata type iii (blue super, stainless clad), available from a few places but some links so you can see them:

http://couteliernola.com/shibata-kotetsu-gyuto-240mm/
http://couteliernola.com/shibata-kotetsu-type-iii-gyuto-240mm/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wRROrwVTuQ
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8altot75iOs

Another option is to buy a few knives at much lower $ (say 150-300 each) to find what blade profile/grind/hardness you like and works for you, then find one of many custom makers and talk with them to design what you want. There's a reasonable market for lightly used gyutos: you'll take a bit of a hit, but perhaps call it the fee to finding your happy place wrt blades.
(disclaimer, home cook, still new to J-knives, still learning what I like)

Thank you for the suggestions I will have a look!

 

[HappyDaisy]

get this: ginga 270 white 2 gyuto

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...products/gesshin-ginga-270mm-white-2-wa-gyuto


it's what i use more than any other knife. its GREAT with meat, raw and cooked. because its so thin overall, there's less wedging when cutting through cold meat, which is a huge plus when cutting raw meat and especially fat.

if you find it's not enough, call or email jon, and ask -- he'll guide you to something in store or with some other option with another maker/ brand/store.

open the quote and i put specific answers



start with one knife. use it for as longgggg as you can while thinking of gaps that could be improved upon. then get more knives. in your case, a sujihiki might work for the meat -- but frankly, i prefer the height of a gyuto, which lets you chop more easily, versus the lower height of a sujihiki which kinda cramps my hand.

i reaaallllly recommend you don't get honyaki as your first knife. Reallly. honyaki is mostly for the 'better' heat treat, which you can get, in various other ways that are somewhat comparable but not equivalent to honyaki heat treat results, with other makers that are non-honyaki. for instance, if you wanted easier sharpening, longer edge retention, sharper edge, compared to ginga you could get gengetsu / heiji / teruyasu fujiwara. but they'd be chippier. annoyingly. chippier -- at least for the TF and maybe the heiji (but they will cut!!!). the gengetsu shouldnt be chippy at all.

I completely agree, honyaki is out for now and I do really like the knife you linked, I think that's definitely up there at the moment!

 

[HappyDaisy]

The only problem with the cheaper knives such as Tojiro and Fujiwarra Kanefusa is that they need some serious thinning to perform well. It will be easier to see what you like if you start with a knife that has a more optimised grind.

At the other end of the scale, I have heard that taking a really exxie (oz slang for expensive) knife to work is somewhat fraught. I have heard stories of knives going "missing", knives being "borrowed" and comming back damaged and knives being repurposed as screwdrivers or can openers. I reckon that his would be much easier to cope with if it was a 300 or 400 buck knife than if it was a 2000 buck honyaki.

+1 on using stones not steels. The node of failure for edges made of hard steels is mostly microchipping or abrasion, not rolling over anyway. Jon B has a pretty good video explaining this:



It's actually worth looking at his whole sharpening playlist if you haven't already.

I appreciate the advice! I only use whetstones and they are of a high quality so no steel here!

 

[HappyDaisy]

Ok, so fo now, we'll narrow it down to mostly blue steel gyutos?

For a thinner knife, I really like the Akebono. A fairly flat profile (not ideal for rock chopping). Very thin behind the edge, less thin at the spine. This means that it feels robust (wont twist in the cut) but it can wedge a little in tall hard foods (whole pumpkin). There is a little convexity so food release is pretty good for its thinness (but not nearly as good as thicker knives). The blue2 steel is a joy to sharpen and has pretty good edge retention. It's clad in soft iron and the spine and choil are beutifully rounded. It has a nice ebony handle which puts the balance point at the pinch grip. I think it still comes with a hardwood saya.

Slighly less thin is Tanaka blue2 Nashiji. It blue2 clad in stainless steel (won't patina) . Curved profile. Wide bevel. Not quite as thin as Akebono but still thinnish and has better food release. The K&S version has beautifully rounded spine and choil and nice ebony handle.

A bit thicker is Gesshin Gengetsu. Flattish profile. Excellent food release for its thickness. Available in stainless clad white2 and stainless clad semistainless. A really good allrounder. The handle is burned chestnut. The spine and choil have been eased but not rounded. Did I mention that it's a really good allrounder?

It's worth looking at Mizuno Hontanren Akitada. Blue2 steel clad in iron. Thickness seems to vary a bit between thinner middleweight and heavier middleweight. Mine is a wide bevel and is a heavier middleweight. It has a fairly flat profile. Wide bevel is perhaps a little more difficult to maintain than the narrow bevel version (but really not that hard to learn and quite fun- let me know if you want to kniw more). Wedges a little but food release is good. Spine and choil can do with a bit of easing.

Mazaki is worth a look, even if it is white2. Mine is from K&S (different vendors seem to have differnt versions). Middling profile curve. Moderately thick grind. Good food felease. Spine & choil are rounded. Fit & finish on the blade face is not marvellous (pretty easy to fix, though). A semi mirror polish over coarse grind marks. The iron cladding is very reactive until it patinas. It's a wide bevel with convex wide bevels (similar to wide bevel Mizuno). Mine has a beautiful heart shaped gidgee handle but I think ebony octagonal is standard at K&S. The steel is very nice to sharpen. Edge retention is less than most blue2 but I think maybe more than most other white steel knives. A great value knife.



For a great in workhorse knife, look at Watanabe Pro. A pretty hard heat treatment of blue2 with good edge retention. Cladding is iron. Profile is a gentle curve. It has a tall profile and a thick convexed grind for excellent food felease. This is a heavy knife which will demolish huge piles of food in short order. Spine and choil were well eased but not rounded. Handle is basic magnolia (ho) wood.

In terns of trusted vendors, I have had good dealings with Knives & Stones here in Oz, Japanese Natural Stones in Denmark and Japanesechefknives in Japan.

In the USA, Japanese Knife Imports has a very good reputation. The owner, Jon is active on the forums and his point of view is generally well respected. Also, his is sharpening videos are excellent. Epicurean Edge and Bernal Cutlery are also well regarded vendors.

You may want to look at some Western Custom makers, but let's get you into a nice knife first.

So much valuable info here, much appreciated thank you, I will be looking at all brands suggested!

 

[HappyDaisy]

Welcome fellow Canadian, $2000 is a very handsome budget to be throwing around. Firstly, I think trying to find what you "love" to use can only be gained through some first hand experience, no matter if it is steel type, profile shape, grind, taper, weight, etc.
As much as we (KKF) love to spend your money for you (our favorite past time here) we also want you to find what you love (and then tell us why you love it).
I would start off with some of the most recommended intro 240 gyutos such as: Shigeki Tanaka, Wakui, Mazaki, Ginga, etc. Each can be found on multiple vendors, and they differ enough that you really get to get a feel for what you love. If you don't love them sell or trade them here on the forums until you find it. The next most recommended course of action is a decent and trusted petty knife (150-180mm). That's how I would spend my first $500 of the budget.
Sometimes great deals, unique knives, etc pop up here on BST so save the $1500 and maybe you will find your love there for an awesome price (I got lucky and happened to me).
Good luck and once again welcome down the rabbit hole.

Hello from the frozen North fellow Canadian! Hope you are staying warm!

I really do appreciate the advice and I will be looking in to every brand you mentioned, I can't thank you enough!

 

[HappyDaisy]

I can also vouch for Knives & Stones if purchasing from the Australian region. Otherwise Watanabe is very helpful if you want to purchase directly from him but he does get busy sometimes. If I was going to buy a new set of knives from scratch given what I've learnt over the past few months...

-Watanabe Pro Nakiri 180 - I bought a Takeda Nakiri instead and after trying both the Takeda has better food release but the Watanabe beats it in every other category (minus that handle).

-Mazaki 240mm Gyuto - Something I've only recently had the chance to try, if you're after a workhorse gyuto that doesn't cost as much as a Toyama then this is a good choice. There are more expensive options out there but diminishing returns...

-Laser Gyuto? - I don't have any recommendations here because I use my Nakiri for finer details and vegetables.

-Petty - I'm not an expert in this category so I won't give any advice.

I think the best advice I could offer is don't spend your $2000 budget in a single go. Work out what you like and start with better value offerings. Steel/Maker/Grind preferences are very dependent on the user and you may end up regretting your decisions down the track. I made that mistake.

Edit: I would also advise spending the premium on a honyaki, they're not great value and are hard to maintain. You should only get one if you know exactly what you want.

Wonderful info, thank you! More stuff to look at!!! So helpful!

 

[McMan]

I like the suggestions and greatly appreciate it...this sounds like a great set up.

I have had my eye on this as my main Gyuto, any thoughts or suggestions as to comparable knives or better ones in the same price range?

I suppose I will increase my overall budget lol

It isn't always as simple as spending more to get better. After leaving the cheap-o tier, there isn't always a clear linear correlation with more $$ = more quality... You can get some wonderful performers for ~$400 and less.

My suggestions would be
(1) DON'T spend all of your budget now. Don't raise it yet either. Saving some $$ until after you learn more about your tastes and what profiles and grind and steels work best for you and your situations at work will help--and give you some new knives to look forward to using
(2) Pick up a few gyutos. Use them and realize what you like and don't like. Then you can ask for very specific advice in a few months (and sell a few knives on BST).