Naniwa Snow White

[Mike Shults]

Hello all,

I am looks for a good 8k for razor honing. Currently i have the entire SG HC series, and i dont like. The reason is, because (imo) they're close to the same composition as Naniwa SS. They are too soft imo and they auto-slurry and sometimes chip certain steels. I also don't get alone with the Nan12k, for this reason. The 8k hc is an excellent 8k, it finishes/polishes more like a 10k, but again i don't like because of the above reasons.


Anyways i am looking into SW Nan 8k. I have heard it does crack with some people, depends on where they are located by the climate and humidity etc. I was wandering about stabilizing/sealing with 2 part epoxy. I have actually did this with my jnats' tomos.

 

[SirCutAlot]

The only good man made razor hones IMO are Naniwa Superstone 12k and Gokumyo 20k. They work. But really go for coticule or maybe an good old ark.

SirCutAlot

 

[Mike Shults]

Does anyone have any experience with using 2 part epoxy on problematic stones that are known to craze, with good success?

 

[M1k3]

It'll work. Lacquer in a spray can is much easier to apply though.

 

[Benuser]

Can't tell you anything about razors, but are very familiar with the magnesia based stones as the Chosera, Naniwa Pro and the Naniwa Junpaku 8k. A lot of users here suggest attaching to a base, or lacquering, to avoid cracking. I'm a bit sceptical about it, but I'm well aware I'm taking a minority position. The real problem is the inside of the stone getting wet and staying so for a longer time, and disaggregating, causing pressure on the outer layers. First thing to do, of course, is avoiding soaking, and only applying a bit of water on the upper side. But after that, after a short rinsing of all sides, even drying is essential, which both a base and lacquer will hinder.
By the way, but again, I only use them with knives: the Shapton Pro 12k gives a very similar end result as the Junpaku 8k, and is much easier in use.

 

[kayman67]

Does anyone have any experience with using 2 part epoxy on problematic stones that are known to craze, with good success?

Will not entirely prevent the cracked surface, but will keep the stone together and can be used just fine.
This being said, the stones you are looking for are from Suehiro. You want/need 10 and 20k. These are similar to a true ceramic stone and the only ones capable of what's called true mirror polish. Unfortunately they are mighty expensive, so it's up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.
So far, by a huge margin, best and easiest edges with anything, I got using Chosera 1000 + 3000, SG HC 6000 (if you don't like this, Suehiro has something similar, but much harder, albeit it's a bit tricky to use on the long run as that's a weird combo and it might warp after a couple of years unless you do something), Suehiro 10 + 20k (if you ever get here, keep in mind that some razors won't need more than a few passes with 20k). I don't think I could mention a stone I haven't tried yet for honing at some point in the past, unless it's some new stone or new variation that recently hit the market.

 

[Mike Shults]

Will not entirely prevent the cracked surface, but will keep the stone together and can be used just fine.
This being said, the stones you are looking for are from Suehiro. You want/need 10 and 20k. These are similar to a true ceramic stone and the only ones capable of what's called true mirror polish. Unfortunately they are mighty expensive, so it's up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.
So far, by a huge margin, best and easiest edges with anything, I got using Chosera 1000 + 3000, SG HC 6000 (if you don't like this, Suehiro has something similar, but much harder, albeit it's a bit tricky to use on the long run as that's a weird combo and it might warp after a couple of years unless you do something), Suehiro 10 + 20k (if you ever get here, keep in mind that some razors won't need more than a few passes with 20k). I don't think I could mention a stone I haven't tried yet for honing at some point in the past, unless it's some new stone or new variation that recently hit the market.

Yeap I have has my eyes on Suehiro Gok 20k. I have read that some user's say its feedback is 'plastic feeling'. The Nan is kinda feels like plastic. I agree lots of razors are lap sensitive, too many laps on a wafer thin hollow ground razor on a high finishing stone and the edge can fail. I am thinking about getting the Kouseki 10k (to replace Nan 12) i heard its finish is like 1um and finer than Nan 12k.

Yeah i really news a good 8k. That's odd though the SW cracks with something and some it doesn't. I do have a Chosera 2k ans had it for way over a year and it hasn't crack yet, . I live in Southeast Tennessee so my humidity must be another right??

 

[M1k3]

I'd think higher humidity environment would help. Slowing drying time, allowing the stone to more evenly dry out.

 

[Mike Shults]

I'd think higher humidity environment would help. Slowing drying time, allowing the stone to more evenly dry out.

Is this stone a good polisher, meaning above its grit rating?

 

[M1k3]

Is this stone a good polisher, meaning above its grit rating?

I can't personally say anything about it, I haven't used it before. But I'd probably guess so, judging by Chosera and Super Stones.

 

[kayman67]

Yeap I have has my eyes on Suehiro Gok 20k. I have read that some user's say its feedback is 'plastic feeling'. The Nan is kinda feels like plastic. I agree lots of razors are lap sensitive, too many laps on a wafer thin hollow ground razor on a high finishing stone and the edge can fail. I am thinking about getting the Kouseki 10k (to replace Nan 12) i heard its finish is like 1um and finer than Nan 12k.

Yeah i really news a good 8k. That's odd though the SW cracks with something and some it doesn't. I do have a Chosera 2k ans had it for way over a year and it hasn't crack yet, . I live in Southeast Tennessee so my humidity must be another right??

Sometimes it takes a while, a couple of years even. But usually happens. It's the nature of the binder.

 

[Benuser]

Is this stone a good polisher, meaning above its grit rating?

Those are very different things! I use it with knives and it delivers a very fine bite, probably above its grit rating. I guess there are different sized abrasives in it. Polishers didn't like it that much, IIRC.

 

[Mike Shults]

Those are very different things! I use it with knives and it delivers a very fine bite, probably above its grit rating. I guess there are different sized abrasives in it. Polishers didn't like i. I guess there Polishers didn't like it that much, IIRC.

I appreciate the reply! im sorry i dont understand what you're saying here, but i might "I guess there are different sized abrasives in it." Polishers didn't like it that much, IIRC." Are you said that the SW scraches deep and when you (if you decide to mirror polish) go even higher in grit to more polishing grits that the 8k SW stria is hard to remove etc?

 

[Nemo]

I wonder whether Kitayama 8k might give a similar result (i.e.: much finer than 8k) but with more conventional sharpening feel and feeback?

 

[Benuser]

I appreciate the reply! im sorry i dont understand what you're saying here, but i might "I guess there are different sized abrasives in it." Polishers didn't like it that much, IIRC." Are you said that the SW scraches deep and when you (if you decide to mirror polish) go even higher in grit to more polishing grits that the 8k SW stria is hard to remove etc?

Not so much about scratches, but some very fine stones seem to be made for edges, and other ones for polishing. It looks like the Junpaku is clearly in the first category. Knife sharpeners often do like mixed abrasives because of the bite it delivers.
Have been told about great polishing stones who deliver disappointing edges, but I'm no polisher, so no own experience.

 

[kayman67]

I agree with this. Makes for an even more interesting edge if the surface is rugged a bit before usage.

 

[Benuser]

I agree with this. Makes for an even more interesting edge if the surface is rugged a bit before usage.

True!

 

[Mike Shults]

Not so much about scratches, but some very fine stones seem to be made for edges, and other ones for polishing. It looks like the Junpaku is clearly in the first category. Knife sharpeners often do like mixed abrasives because of the bite it delivers.
Have been told about great polishing stones who deliver disappointing edges, but I'm no polisher, so no own experience.

Ah - i see now. With knives i too like a polished and toothy edge combination into one. Meaning stop at a low grit say 1000-2000 and finish on a polisher( with a small numbers of passes)by making huge grit jump it leaves a bitey, grabby, toothy edge with 'some refinement'. Just enough for burr removal and to bump up and knock of some of those coarser teeth, but not all , because we want an aggressive slicer.


So how does the Snow White, do coming off a good 4-5k, meaning does it leave a more mirror finish if one does the ground work correctly?

 

[Benuser]

Of course, but my standards are not the same as polishers', who seem to prefer other ones. Better ask razor sharpeners.

 

[Benuser]

Google search
site:kitchenknifeforums.com snow-white and super-stone

 

[Rangen]

Hello all,

I am looks for a good 8k for razor honing. Currently i have the entire SG HC series, and i dont like. The reason is, because (imo) they're close to the same composition as Naniwa SS. They are too soft imo and they auto-slurry and sometimes chip certain steels. I also don't get alone with the Nan12k, for this reason. The 8k hc is an excellent 8k, it finishes/polishes more like a 10k, but again i don't like because of the above reasons.


Anyways i am looking into SW Nan 8k. I have heard it does crack with some people, depends on where they are located by the climate and humidity etc. I was wandering about stabilizing/sealing with 2 part epoxy. I have actually did this with my jnats' tomos.

I use the SG HC's very frequently as intermediate stones in a honing sequence, and my experience with them does not match yours at all. I get essentially no auto slurrying at razor honing pressures. They strike me as hard stones, some of the harder synthetics I've used. I've never had any chipping problems with them. Are you using them with high carbon steels, and appropriately super-light pressure? If so, I can't come anywhere near understanding your experience. I guess you could try the Shapton Glass 10K HR, which is recommended as a razor stone, and which I absolutely love, but who knows, you may have a different experience with that one too.

Any of these is, to me, only an intermediate stone. The Suehiro Gokumyo 20K is the best synthetic razor finisher I know, and I am fine shaving with edges from it, but it's the naturals that produce the best edges for shaving. You might try going from a 8K-12K stone to a nicely flattened and surface-conditioned Translucent or True Hard Black Ark, used at extremely low pressure, if you want a great shaving edge.

 

[natto]

They are too soft imo and they auto-slurry and sometimes chip certain steels.

As a beginner with straights I do too many off strokes. A little too much pressure here and there keeps the edge from fully set. That's enough to change the behavior of my SP and Chosera completely. My first attempt left black streaks all over the stone.

Just in case its not the stones.

 

[Mike Shults]

I use the SG HC's very frequently as intermediate stones in a honing sequence, and my experience with them does not match yours at all. I get essentially no auto slurrying at razor honing pressures. They strike me as hard stones, some of the harder synthetics I've used. I've never had any chipping problems with them. Are you using them with high carbon steels, and appropriately super-light pressure? If so, I can't come anywhere near understanding your experience. I guess you could try the Shapton Glass 10K HR, which is recommended as a razor stone, and which I absolutely love, but who knows, you may have a different experience with that one too.

Any of these is, to me, only an intermediate stone. The Suehiro Gokumyo 20K is the best synthetic razor finisher I know, and I am fine shaving with edges from it, but it's the naturals that produce the best edges for shaving. You might try going from a 8K-12K stone to a nicely flattened and surface-conditioned Translucent or True Hard Black Ark, used at extremely low pressure, if you want a great shaving edge.

imo i think that the Hr shaptons are harder than the hc. Hr feel more ceramic based, hc are more elastic. Whenever i say auto-slurries i don't mean a muddy type of slurry but on a smaller scale of slurring, causing microchips on razors. It maybe just certain steels are not compatible, because it doesn't happen on every razor. I never liked the 4k hc, so i bought the hr, and i love it, blasing fast and very fine at mid-range imo, meaning narrow grit distribution. Thinking about getting the 10k hr and 6k hr to replace my 8 6khc. So how does the Hr 10k compare in finishing the bevel against a 8k hc?

Yes a Arky is a killer edge!!

 

[Mike Shults]

I also agree natural edges are great. I find them easier to use on straight razors than sunth. But sometimes i am a sucker for a good synthetic. I may get the Suehiro Gokumyo 15k instead of the 20k. Does anyone have any experience with the Gok series here i read that a 15k finishes finer than the Nan 12 k. I think the Nan 12 is rated 1 um and the Gok 15 is rated 0.75 um.

 

[lesslemming]

Hello all,

I am looks for a good 8k for razor honing. Currently i have the entire SG HC series, and i dont like. The reason is, because (imo) they're close to the same composition as Naniwa SS. They are too soft imo and they auto-slurry and sometimes chip certain steels. I also don't get alone with the Nan12k, for this reason. The 8k hc is an excellent 8k, it finishes/polishes more like a 10k, but again i don't like because of the above reasons.


Anyways i am looking into SW Nan 8k. I have heard it does crack with some people, depends on where they are located by the climate and humidity etc. I was wandering about stabilizing/sealing with 2 part epoxy. I have actually did this with my jnats' tomos.

The Shapton glass HC (grey) are indeed not the best of what Shapton has to offer for razors.

Personally, I swapped all my HC for the HR (white). I have been using my full set of HR (incl. 30k) for almost a decade for razors with the greatest results.

I DO NOT consider the HR being muddy at all, if you otherwise like the Shapton Glass. Especially for razors they are excellent. No need to go beyond the glass 8k unless you are unreasonable, like me.

That being said, if you like ‘em hard: the Shapton Pro are pretty hard.

If you don’t mind experimenting, I can recommend 3m lapping film (especially Diamond) 6,3,1 um for incredible results for razors.

You could also venture into JNAT territory and invest into a shobudani asagi

 

[Mike Shults]

The Shapton glass HC (grey) are indeed not the best of what Shapton has to offer for razors.

Personally, I swapped all my HC for the HR (white). I have been using my full set of HR (incl. 30k) for almost a decade for razors with the greatest results.

I DO NOT consider the HR being muddy at all, if you otherwise like the Shapton Glass. Especially for razors they are excellent. No need to go beyond the glass 8k unless you are unreasonable, like me.

That being said, if you like ‘em hard: the Shapton Pro are pretty hard.

If you don’t mind experimenting, I can recommend 3m lapping film (especially Diamond) 6,3,1 um for incredible results for razors.

You could also venture into JNAT territory and invest into a shobudani asagi

I agree with your comments. I do find i like the white HR glass better. I think Shapton only recommends (for razors) the Hr 1k ,3k, 10k and 30k. I do believe that the 2k is a very fast and has very narrow grit distribution,.same with the 4k Hr, imo they do great with razors no issues at all. I heard that the 6k and 8k hr are also good for razors. It is the 16k that's a pickle, its grit range is not narrow, (like the rest of the Hr series) and it was and is intentionally made that way for knives, planes ,tools. Yeap the Hr stones are harder than the HC's.


Already have owned the Shapton Kuromaku they are good working stones, but i do find they scratch deeper than the glass stones, mean . When you're chasing a mirror finish then those scraches will show up, i find they don't leave as fine a stria as the Shapton glass. The 2k Kuromaku is fine, but imo its not finer than the SG 2k. The SG 2k is finer Imo. Yep i already own jnats, they are special imo. I am definitely going to sell these HC's they are practically like new, maybe only lost about three quarters of a millimeter.

 

[lesslemming]

I agree with your comments. I do find i like the white HR glass better. I think Shapton only recommends (for razors) the Hr 1k ,3k, 10k and 30k. I do believe that the 2k is a very fast and has very narrow grit distribution,.same with the 4k Hr, imo they do great with razors no issues at all. I heard that the 6k and 8k hr are also good for razors. It is the 16k that's a pickle, its grit range is not narrow, (like the rest of the Hr series) and it was and is intentionally made that way for knives, planes ,tools. Yeap the Hr stones are harder than the HC's.


Already have owned the Shapton Kuromaku they are good working stones, but i do find they scratch deeper than the glass stones, mean . When you're chasing a mirror finish then those scraches will show up, i find they don't leave as fine a stria as the Shapton glass. The 2k Kuromaku is fine, but imo its not finer than the SG 2k. The SG 2k is finer Imo. Yep i already own jnats, they are special imo. I am definitely going to sell these HC's they are practically like new, maybe only lost about three quarters of a millimeter.

I agree with your statements but don’t agree with Shapton’s assessment re razors and only a few of their stones being good for them.

I had all (!) HR stones at one point and all of them are excellent for razors except the 16k, which I absolutely hate.

I use the 500, 2k, 4k, 8k and 30k for razors since 2018 and love them

 

[Mike Shults]

I agree with your statements but don’t agree with Shapton’s assessment re razors and only a few of their stones being good for them.

I had all (!) HR stones at one point and all of them are excellent for razors except the 16k, which I absolutely hate.

I use the 500, 2k, 4k, 8k and 30k for razors since 2018 and love them

Yeap i have them 500 too. Its just a tad softer than the other SG.

 

[Mike Shults]

I agree with your statements but don’t agree with Shapton’s assessment re razors and only a few of their stones being good for them.

I had all (!) HR stones at one point and all of them are excellent for razors except the 16k, which I absolutely hate.

I use the 500, 2k, 4k, 8k and 30k for razors since 2018 and love them

What is your assessment on the 10k Hr?

 

[lesslemming]

What is your assessment on the 10k Hr?

The 10k HR is excellent but unnecessary.

The 8k provides a good polish and if used with care can produce a keen edge ready for stropping (especially with compounds, but I have successfully shaved off the 8k, too).

The 10k does as expected, it polishes nicely albeit not as perfect as, say Naniwa Super 10k. Still respectable. Performance is exactly what the 16k was supposed to be.
It provides an edge that you can surely shave off but is not as amazing as the 30k.

My verdict? Unfortunately it’s too expensive.
You don’t need it if you have the 8k and a strop.

If you’re unreasonable, like me, and *have* to finish on a superfine stone but don’t have the guts for the 30k; the HR10k is a nice alternative