Need help with First Real Knife

[double]

LOCATION
What country are you in? USA



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? Gyuto

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 210-240

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 400



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Chopping veggies and boneless meat

What knife, if any, are you replacing? L.C. Germain (Made in Japan) 210 Chef Knife

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) Push Cut, Chopping, Rocking

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) Sharpness, ability to sharpen, edge retention

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? Aesthetics are low on the priority

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? Lighter, and ease of use

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? Less wedging, better food release

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? 1-2 months



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) Boardsmith hard maple.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Yes, King 1000/6000

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes if necessary



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

So I've been browsing the forums for a while now and soaking up all the information and I've run into a bit of a problem. Information overload. There is just so much choice that it has led me to not be able to make any choice at all. What I'm looking for in a knife is a workhorse, something that can handle anything I can throw at it. Whether it's dicing an onion, slicing through a sweet potato, chopping up a head of cabbage, or whatever. I know that good at everything, master of none is a thing but something for me to worry about in the future. The problem I'm running into is there is just so much choice. For instance Tanaka gets a lot of love around here and at 200 is not bad. But is it worth it to invest in a Toyama at 400? Is it twice the knife? Then you have Watanabe, Wakui, TF, Itonmon, and on and on. I had a chef friend staying with me a few weeks ago and suggested I start with something cheap and find what I like. I don't really want to go down the route and end up with 3 knifes that I hate just to get to one I like. He brought over a few knives as well and I got to try a Shun and a Wustoff. The Wustoff I hated, didn't like how it cut, the weight, the handle everything just did not like it. The Shun wasn't terrible but was HEAVY. Couldn't believe how heavy it was, and it did cut way better than what I have but still wasn't that impressed. So I need some sound advice on where to go from here. I'm too scared of buying the wrong knife, of course I know anything I get will be a vast improvement but I still want to make the right choice. Thanks in advance.

 

[Nemo]

More choice is a good thing. An excuse to buy more knives 😁 Would you be happy with one knife that you love and 3 other knives that you also love? Different knives are different and therin lies the beauty.

Different knives vary in:
Profile (the shape viewed from side on),
Grind (the cross sectional shape of the blade),
Taper (the way in which the knife becomes thinner as it gets closer to the tip),
Steel and more importantly, how that steel is heat treated,
Cladding,
How the knife is finished (level of polish, spine and choil easing or rounding),
Handle and ferrule

Note that there is a tradeoff between a knife's thinness and its food release. In general, thinner knives go through tall hard food (think sweet potato and tall carrots) with ease but can get a bit stuck in wet foods (think potatoes and zucchini). The opposite is true of a thicker knife (assuming a grind optimised for food release). It sounds like you want a thinner knife (from your comments about Shun being heavy). Note that the term "workhorse" is sometimes used to denote a do it all knife (which is what I think you mean) and sometimes used to denote a thicker knife with optimised food release.

All of the knives which you have listed will blow you away. IMO, the sweet spot of price vs performance can be found in the 200-350ish USD area, although some of the 350-500 USD knives are still pretty good value and are very nice knives.

Tanaka Najishi is thin without being laser thin. It's brilliant value and is often recommeded as a gateway drug.... errr... knife 😁. The KnS version comes with great fit and finish and a nice handle. Food release is less than with thicker knives but not bad considering the thinness.

You may find the Watanabe a little on the heavier side (food release is brilliant though and I personally love mine). I suspect that the same is true of Toyama and possibly Intomonn but I haven't used the gyuto versions of these.

It sounds like you have identified some top contenders but have a bit of analysis paralysis. It's time to pick a knife and see what you do and don't like about it.

One alternative that you have (given you are in USA) is to contact JKI for some very good advice about which of their knives would be the best starter for you. You will also get good and prompt service from KnS here in Aus and the delivery from JNS in Denmark is insanely fast.

 

[chiffonodd]

A great knife on the lighter side of workhorse is the gengetsu at JKI. It's in your price range. Flat profile, really nice grind. Looks like the stainless clad carbons are out of stock, but plenty of 210s left in semi-stainless and a few 240s left in semi-stainless.

Check them out here:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gengetsu/gyuto

I own the 210 in semi-stainless and couldn't be happier.

[Edit]: If you're putting a premium on edge retention, also check out the kagero while you're there. SRS15 PM steel, excellent wear resistance. Wa and yo versions. I've only owned a yo version in this series. From photos, the grind on the wa version looks thinner. But call JKI and they can tell you for sure.

 

[double]

Nemo you are exactly right I have analysis paralysis. After looking at what you said I was like let me just look at these knives a few more times, and none of them really have a downside. I guess price is a downside but I'm not stressing over that. I think a bit of the problem is I'm so used to being able to look at something, read 1000 reviews, and then make a decision. My boss often gives me **** when I'm on Amazon and look at 15 different sweat pants, read a 100 reviews on all of them, get on reddit, check out forums, all for just a 15 dollar item. I want to get the most for my money, and I would rather spend a little more now and get something quality that will last. After sleeping on it for the night I think I'm going to get the Toyama. Just about everything I've read says it is an amazing workhorse. Not to mention he is old and I may not to be able to get them in the future. I do want to get a Watanabe but I think that will be for the future, and I'm thinking a nakiri. Yes 400+ is a lot for my first knife, and I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if I got the Tanaka, but I got to go with my gut, I feel like the Toyama is the one. Thanks for helping get off my ass and just jump in. I'll be sure to post a pic when I get it.

 

[Nemo]

Yes 400+ is a lot for my first knife, and I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if I got the Tanaka,

You will be able to tell the difference between most of these knives because they are all different. But... the differences will be in the categories I mentioned above, not in the level of quality and utility, which is very good for of all of those knives.

I have a Toyama suji which is very nice. I think you'll love it.

 

[Hanmak17]

A great knife on the lighter side of workhorse is the gengetsu at JKI. It's in your price range. Flat profile, really nice grind. Looks like the stainless clad carbons are out of stock, but plenty of 210s left in semi-stainless and a few 240s left in semi-stainless.

Check them out here:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gengetsu/gyuto

I own the 210 in semi-stainless and couldn't be happier.

[Edit]: If you're putting a premium on edge retention, also check out the kagero while you're there. SRS15 PM steel, excellent wear resistance. Wa and yo versions. I've only owned a yo version in this series. From photos, the grind on the wa version looks thinner. But call JKI and they can tell you for sure.

+1 on the Gengetsu. Just had mine rehandled, I rarely lay it down. I would hesitate to call it a WH though it has a similar geometry in an overall thinner knife. Toyama and Intonmon are also very popular here.
Nice thing about either is that they would sell in a heartbeat on the site if you choose to change.

I also own a Wat pro nakiri. While I have never used his gyutos I can say that the quality of his HT and fit finish is excellent.

Just get the Gengetsu while there are a few left. Otherwise it may be some time before you see them again

 

[chiffonodd]

+1 on the Gengetsu. Just had mine rehandled, I rarely lay it down. I would hesitate to call it a WH though it has a similar geometry in an overall thinner knife. Toyama and Intonmon are also very popular here.
Nice thing about either is that they would sell in a heartbeat on the site if you choose to change.

I also own a Wat pro nakiri. While I have never used his gyutos I can say that the quality of his HT and fit finish is excellent.

Just get the Gengetsu while there are a few left. Otherwise it may be some time before you see them again

Need pics of gengetsu rehandle!!

 

[Nemo]

Gengetsu is a very good knife with a brilliantly executed tradeoff between thinness and food release and a nice profile. It is at the thinner end of the knives being discussed in this thread. My SS version sharpens very nicely and has reasonably good edge retention.

 

[deskjockey]

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/ikazuchi

Something like this may be the knife for you. At ~$200 with Saya it is a good value and, being a laser, it will be wicked good on lettuce, onions, etc. The Intonmon is one I hope to try at some point as it seems to hit the sweet spot between laser and workhorse.

 

[Friend_of_Epicurius]

Not sure what you have or dont have or where you are located. but you can find some great finds at estate sales. my grandparents recently found some very nice wustof and zwilling knives for me that are going to be sent to me here cost. dollar each for one chefs knife and a few others like utility and pairing knives

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Wusthof/Zwilling are a different category still - "real" but old school, some might say outmoded for most tasks in the modern kitchen.

 

[aaamax]

The size of blade and your description leaves a lot of options on the table = good thing. So I say take your time on the "for sale" section here on this site and buy a nice used blade for a fraction of the new price. Which one??? I would say any nice Gyuto would suit you well. How do you know which one is Nice when starting from scratch? Well, most people don't list a whole lot of crap and usually describe the good and the bad of what they are selling.
But being a Cleaver fanatic, I say get a Chukabocho or a larger Nakiri and call it a day!

 

[Friend_of_Epicurius]

Wusthof/Zwilling are a different category still - "real" but old school, some might say outmoded for most tasks in the modern kitchen.

Would you care to elaborate? I would love to know more about that and your take on why and whats better.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

German profile that is optimized for rocking use. Thicker geometry. Softer steel optimized for maintaining with a honing rod, and ruggedness (chip and corrosion resistance) more than edge holding.

 

[Friend_of_Epicurius]

German profile that is optimized for rocking use. Thicker geometry. Softer steel optimized for maintaining with a honing rod, and ruggedness (chip and corrosion resistance) more than edge holding.

could it hypothetically be said that the designs came about when HC was the most commonly used and that by keeping the design yet changing the steel they have become less than they may have been 70 years ago?

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

"HC"? As in "high carbon"? There is no such steel type meaning anything (except in railway parts), and there is no spoon made of it either.

European-style knives are not made as hard as japanese ones because the usage styles differ. There is an expectation of a quality "western" chef knife surviving being used as a crowbar, walked across a board with force, then thrown in the dishwasher.

 

[deskjockey]

If you compare a German and French pattern Chef's knife, you will see a difference that many never notice however, if you are like me and look at how you use that chef's knife you may find out one actually works better for you than the other.

While there is nothing wrong with a German Chef's knife, I don't 'rock cut' much and find a lower tip works better for me as I 'guillotine' a lot of vegetables on my cutting board with the tip touching the board. I also generally don't do many 'slicing cuts' so the better belly profile of the German knife is not an advantage to me. Cleaving cuts with the French profile also works better in my hands for this user.

This is a PERSONAL preference of mine. In fairness, everything I do with a French profile, I can do with a German knife. Over time, I discovered I really liked the thinness of a Japanese Gyuto best of all and it mirrors the French profile I preferred. All that being said, the thicker and SLIGHTLY softer German Chef's knife has earned a well respected place in the marketplace for a very good reason. A German knife will shrug off abuses in the kitchen without any undue damage or stress where a Japanese knife would simply fail to a point of destruction.

The vast majority of people on this site would not use a "chef's" to pry apart frozen meat, hack through boned meats, etc. However, in most kitchens, knives are treated like screwdrivers (tightening a loose cabinet knob), a hammer (breaking apart frozen stuff, cracking nuts, etc.), as a crowbar, ... with very minimal signs of distress. Try doing any of the that with Gyuto without injury to the hapless adult or child that knows no better!

 

[Friend_of_Epicurius]

"HC"? As in "high carbon"? There is no such steel type meaning anything (except in railway parts), and there is no spoon made of it either.

European-style knives are not made as hard as japanese ones because the usage styles differ. There is an expectation of a quality "western" chef knife surviving being used as a crowbar, walked across a board with force, then thrown in the dishwasher.

when i say high carbon its to distinguish older pre stainless steel knives vs the more modern made to be abused knives. they didn't have dishwashers 70-100 years ago. the dishwasher didn't really become a big thing till about the 50s. so compare modern stainless French and german steels to older ones.

is my hypothetical question has changing the metal changed ttheir performance

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

Likely much more to do with the style of cooking prevalent in the respective countries in pre-globalization times An amateur cook in Germany might have a mental image of "yeah, these were for these old school butcher-with-a-toque types" when looking at a german style chef knife, and of grandma thumbing stuff into her stew when looking at a classic parer...

Old school carbon steel knives weren't always made very hard in Europe... I think I'll let the carbon sabatier lovers finish that thought...