Ah. Yeah. I should have elaborated. Best for a broke ass mf, that only has a few hand tools.
Need some advice. Making a base for a natural stone.
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Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Yeah, those chisels were OEM chisels, and carried a lot of different brand-names. All they did was change the color of the handles. Blue was Marples' color. Stanley's were usually black w/yellow trim, or brown w/yellow trim, then there was Fuller, and Irwin, and many more. For most home-owners, they're fine for hand use. When you start using hammers and mallets, you want a beefier handle w/socket, and often with a metal ferrule at the butt of the handle. Some come with parallel sides, longer/thicker handles and blades, etc. There's a specific chisel for every task you can possibly think of.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
For a "broke-ass mf" I'd say you're doing a heckuva good job. Keep it up. Have you given any thought as to bedding your stones in the holder so they don't rock? (assuming your stones aren't dead-flat on the bottoms). One cheap solution might be a tube of clear silicone sealant. Just put a layer of plastic wrap in your stone holder, then cover it with just enough silicone sealant, then another layer of plastic wrap. (sealant sandwich). Before it hardens, place your stone into the holder, then let the silicone harden. The silicone should fill any voids between the stone's base and the base of the holder. After that's done, trim away any excess with a utility knife. Peel off the plastic wrap (optional). Just remember to orient your stone and the bedding in the same direction in case you have to remove it for cleaning, etc. Maybe color it with a marker on one corner of all three components.(holder/bedding/stone)
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I've flattened the bottom of my stones so they sit pretty good in the bases.
As far as the chisels go. I need an upgrade. I've heard the Irwin actually have better steel, and are a bit different shape.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Frankly, the Irwins are probably the same chisel as what you presently have,,,, probably made in the same factory, then re-branded.
It's difficult for me to recommend a specific brand, without knowing precisely what you want to do with your chisels. There's sooo many types and categories out there. I've got turning chisels by Robert Sorby, carving chisels by Pfeil, bench, corner, and mortice chisel sets from Lie-Nielsen, and various Japanese chisels, plus an old set of Marples bench chisels.
https://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/
https://www.woodcraft.com/categories/pfeil
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4080/chisels
I haven't bought chisels for over 20 years now, so there may be some that I'm not aware of, but,,, back in the day,,, Two Cherries were pretty reasonably priced and relatively high quality recommendations. I believe they're made by Hirsch. They're "firmer chisels", with hooped handles, for use with mallets. There are generally larger/longer than standard "bench" push-chisels. I do see some complaints about the Hirsch handle finish, and flattening the polished backs requiring extra work.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/bench/46403-hirsch-firmer-chisels
A quick look-around shows me that Wood River makes a nice set with socketed handles, at a very attractive price. They're probably worth a look. They're apparently a WoodCraft.com in-house brand. They also make some great looking hand-planes under the same brand. (Stanley replica's and more) I see that Rob Cosman (famous woodworker/teacher) also sells the WoodRiver socket-handled chisels, and Rob doesn't sell crap, so those would appear to be an attractive option at a very reasonable price. (not "cheap", but very good bang-for-the-buck) What's nice about "socket-handle" chisels is, the handles are easily replaceable.
https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/woodcraft-introduces-brand-new-bevel-edge-socket-chisels
https://robcosman.com/collections/chisels
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this is what made me say that. Of course wranglestar isn't exactly the authority on chisels. But he seems to like them more than his sweethearts, and says the steel feels harder.
I will say the idea of a Japanese chisel seems pretty attractive to me. Because of the easier sharpening.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Here's a cool video from Master Craftsman Paul Sellers. Paul buys a 4-piece chisel set for £8. then sharpens with a very basic wet/dry silicon carbide sandpaper set-up.
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I've heard those aldi chisels aren't too bad for the price. They stopped selling them I heard.
Yay!!!! Its finally ready! Except some small cosmetic things.
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Bobby2shots
Senior Member
You're getting there,,, but you still have a way to go. You should be able to get muuuuch thinner shavings; see-through willowy wisps, and not so tightly curled. With your planes' current set-up. are you able to freely spin the blade-depth adjustment wheel as you plane, without having to touch the lever-cap? You should be able to freely extend and fully retract the blade without having to loosen the lever-cap. If not, then you have to progressively loosen the lever-cap screw until you can. The lever should not require force to lock/unlock. It should be snug, but no more than that. This will also allow you to easily tilt the blade (iron) left or right, using your lateral adjustment lever, without having to release the lever-cap, and, adjust the cutting depth as you go. Always start with the blade retracted,,, then progressively advance the depth, bit by bit as you go, until you start getting ultra-thin and narrow shavings. Continue advancing in tiny increments until you get full-width shavings.
Also, the tight "curlies" might be caused by having your cap-iron a little too close to the edge of the blade. You might also need to close the mouth somewhat, by advancing the frog. Closing that mouth will also help avoid tear-out, especially in difficult grain situations.
How thin is "thin"??? Well, you should be able to hold a shaving in front of you, and as you release it, the shaving "floats" to the floor. See-through gossamer shavings. 1/1000". Copy paper is usually about 4/1000".
Also, the tight "curlies" might be caused by having your cap-iron a little too close to the edge of the blade. You might also need to close the mouth somewhat, by advancing the frog. Closing that mouth will also help avoid tear-out, especially in difficult grain situations.
How thin is "thin"??? Well, you should be able to hold a shaving in front of you, and as you release it, the shaving "floats" to the floor. See-through gossamer shavings. 1/1000". Copy paper is usually about 4/1000".
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I have it setup to take off a lot. I want to use my block plane as my smoothing plane. This one I want to use almost like a scrub plane.
I'll move the cap iron back a bit. I heard you want it as close as you can get it.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Understood, but I'm not sure that's a good way to go. Mind you, you're apparently working with smaller pieces of wood.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Yes, that's true, to the extent where your shavings don't block the throat. Mind you, if you move it back too much, you can get blade-chatter, and that causes tear-out, so, you want the right balance.
When I'm done with work, I'll try moving it back a hair, and see how it goes. Right now its probably a mm from the edge
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
The radius of the shaving, is largely determined by the distance between the blade-edge, and the front of the chip-breaker. The shorter the deflection-distance, the tighter the "curly". Set it too far back, and you get chatter and possible tear-out. Tear-out can be reduced by adjusting the frog forward, to close the mouth somewhat.
I'm so close to having this thing completely flat. Its useable in this state (and even how it was before this session) but still. I won't be satisfied until its completely flat.
Also I've noticed the shaving is coming out fine then its hitting the part I circled below, then that is where it is curling up.
I'm getting great results, and it isn't clogging. The frog is as far back as it will go, and I moved the chip break back until I couldn't put it on without the blade sticking out, and it still curling up.
I mean, the actual finish is great, and I feel like it's working just fine otherwise.
Also I've noticed the shaving is coming out fine then its hitting the part I circled below, then that is where it is curling up.
I'm getting great results, and it isn't clogging. The frog is as far back as it will go, and I moved the chip break back until I couldn't put it on without the blade sticking out, and it still curling up.
I mean, the actual finish is great, and I feel like it's working just fine otherwise.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
That's great news. Getting to know how it reacts to different woods and difficult grain is part of the joy in using a great hand-plane. The tiniest adjustments can make a world of difference.
Have you got any extra plane-irons?
Earlier, you mentioned you'd like a scrub plane, and those tend to be much narrower than a #5-1/2, (1.45" blade width). The planes' throat is also much larger to accommodate larger/thicker chips.
There's no cap-iron, no lateral adjuster, no depth adjuster, no "lever" cap (screw-type instead) and the blade is usually much thicker. Typical radius of the cutting edge is 3". You also have to be wary about tear-out on the far side of the board you're planing. Lateral and depth adjustments are made with a small hammer or mallet. Scrub planes also do not give you a "finished" surface. They're purely for stock removal, so you still need a smoothing-plane to smooth/finish your surface.
Bottom line; your #5-1/2 looks to be in such great condition, it would be a shame to modify it. You'd probably be better off modifying a beat-up #3 or a #4 that's not in such a great shape.
Here's some nice shots of a vintage #40-1/2.
https://www.jimbodetools.com/products/stanley-no-40-1-2-scrub-plane-sweetheart-79675
Here's Lie-Nielsen's #40-1/2
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/scrub-plane?path=special-purpose-tools&node=4076
Yeah. I decided against making it a scrub plane. I'll just keep it as a jack plane, or whatever you would call something like the 5 1/2.
I got some other good news. So you know how I was saying I had the frog all the way back? I had it set up like that from the beginning. That was what was causing the curly shavings. I finally brought it much further forward. I've been getting some different results finally.
Grayswandir
Senior Member
I'm going to build a little box for a Nakayama I just acquired. It's a thin stone at .40", and I was looking at the planes they have at Harbor Freight. They look decent enough. I've bough a lot of tools from Harbor Freight, and some of them have turned out to be a great bargain.
No.33 Bench Plane
And what about these:
Mini Brass Plane Set, 3pc.
I'm asking because I have no experience with planes and I don't have a lot of cash to spend on new tools right now.
Would either of these planes be sufficient in helping me build a box for my stone (5"x3")?
There's also one more option at Harbor Freight:
No. 4 Jack and Mini Plane Set 2 Pc
I'd appreciate any advice you or anyone else would offer me.
Thanks,
-grayswandir.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Yes,yes, yes. That's looking MUCH better.
Now, you've probably watched the video's where the user is getting those beautiful full-length, full width shavings,,,, Well, those guys are planing "with" the grain of the wood, and using quarter-sawn lumber. Reading the grain is an important part of avoiding tear-out and jerkyness as you push the plane. You can also skew the plane slightly as you push forward, and, you can also add a "squiggle" of bee's wax to the sole to lower the resistance.
The name "Jack" Plane, usually refers to "Jack-of-all-trades". It's great for smoothing,,,, it;s long enough for jointing, works great in a shooting board for squaring the end of a board,,, trims and chamfers end-grain and tilted/angled on its' side, it makes a great straight-edge visual-reference for checking dips and bumps on your board. VERY versatile plane. If I had only one plane, it would be the #5-1/2. It's not designed however, for mortise and tenon work, where you need the blade ( the iron), to run across the full width of the plane. That's where a shoulder plane or a rabbet-plane comes in.
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/small-shoulder-planes-1-042?path=joinery-planes&node=4169
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/no-10-1-4-bench-rabbet-plane
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Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Hi Grayswandir,
I'll add a bit more to this reply later,,,, a bit busy for the moment. Here's a review of the Harbour Freight #33, and you may find it useful. Just remember as you watch this video, that this guy is planing all straight-grained and quarter-sawn lumber, including very soft poplar. Typically, these "bargain" planes tend to need a lot of fettling out of the box. The soles usually have to be ground flat,,, the plane-iron properly sharpened,,, etc. Blades can be of dubious quality and hardness. If you know how to overcome these issues, you can get acceptable results 'if" that size and style of plane suits your specific needs. Personally,,, for $10.,,,, I'd buy one in a heart-beat, and use it for cleaning up glue-line squeeze-out when joining edges of boards together. You can barely buy a decent bench-chisel for $10.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Grayswandir, I just looked at the Harbour Freight 3" brass mini-plane set and the No.4 jack-plane and block-plane set, and here are some reviews.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Grayswandir,
In order to give you sound advice, I'd need more information. Planes may not be the best solution for your particular project. Are you looking to make a simple holder, or, a storage box with a lid, etc. Have you got a particular design in mind? Do you have a particular wood that you'd like to use? Do you know where you can get or buy that wood? Will you be using the Nakayama inside or on that box/holder as you sharpen?? Will the stone be wet when it's stored? Will the holder require vent holes and/or drainage? A saw and a chisel plus a sanding-block may be all you really need.
For your design, consider what happens as you use your holder. How are you planning to keep it from moving around as you stroke? Will it be elevated off your kitchen counter? With "feet", or "no feet". Perhaps a non-slip pad glued to the bottom? Will the top resemble a tray with no sides?
That's a lot of questions, with answers yet to be determined. Nothing beats having a good plan before proceeding. If you can build it on paper,,,, you can build most anything.
Grayswandir
Senior Member
Hello,
Thank you for the help thus far.
I have a nice coticule I plan on making a box for (7.0"x1.63"x0.80") but I haven't picked out any wood yet. I'm probably not going to use a really nice wood, but I could change my mind. The box will be small, so a good piece of wood probably wouldn't be very expensive.
I want to make a base for a Nakayama Awasedo (razor hone) that measures 5.38"x2.93"x0.39".
I also have a nice Ohira Koppa that measures 5.70"x3.54"x0.96" (the thickness varies from left to right and top to bottom by about .20"). The upper right hand corner (on the bottom) angles sharply up towards the right outside corner & edge, so I'd have to make a wedge in order to level out the stone. I might make boxes for all three, but for right now, I want to make a base for the Nakayama because it's so thin.
A base would offer some protection to the Nakayama, and the stone would sit higher in my hand, so honing while holding the stone would be much easier. It's really too thin to hone with it while holding it without attaching a wooden base, or some composite material.
I have some cheap chisels (somewhere) but I need to find them and sharpen them before they're fit for purpose. They'd be fine for making a base, but when I make a box for the coticule, I'd like to have a plane so the wood joins up perfectly.
The boxes would be more for storage and protection. The bases would have to be water resistant, so I would have to choose the right finish and the correct type of wood I suppose, unless I just want to go cheap and enter "get er' done" territory.
-gray.
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Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Hi Grayswandir,
I'll help you in any way I can, however, be aware that I've never built a stone box nor a stone holder. Box construction is pretty basic,,,,, if you know how,,,, and if you have the right tools for the job. Working with "mini-tools" would be a nightmare.... even when the item you're making is "mini". If you've never flattened the backs of chisels, and you don't yet have a plane (or two), you might be quite surprised at what's involved. You need to have the ability to secure your work-pieces as you work, and you need the ability to make accurate/precise and uniform cuts.
Generally, when you buy your wood, it'll come already planed on both sides (S2S) surface-planed on 2-sides). It's often sold in units of "board-foot" and a 1 board- foot piece that's 6" wide and 1" thick, will be 2 feet long (1" thick x 1/2ft wide x 2ft long =1 board-foot. That would probably be more than enough wood for your needs,,, depending on what you finally want it to be. Also, since a 1" thick board refers to rough thickness (before being surfaced) it may actually be 7/8" thick if it's surfaced on one side, or, 3/4" thick if it's been planed (surfaced) on both sides.
Teak would probably be your best bet where water resistance is important. Treated Cypress might also work and treated cedar may be another option.
Now this is very important,,,,,, if you try to cut a short board on a table-saw of some sort, you have to be very very very careful to avoid kick-back. I can't overstate that enough. This can be very dangerous without the proper tools and skill-set. You can be seriously injured in the wink of an eye. How does "kick-back" happen? Well, as you feed let's say an 8" long board into a 10" saw, the first cut happens at the front of the blade which is rotating downward.. As you feed that board out the back of the blade, that portion of the blade is rotating upward at a very high rate of speed, well over 100mph. If that saw and its' fence are not properly aligned, you'll pinch the wood between the blade and fence, and that saw blade will kick that workpiece right back at you. People have been impaled and died from such accidents. A cross-cut sled is a much safer bet when working with shorter pieces, because there's no fence to trap the wood between the fence and blade.
I'll help you in any way I can, however, be aware that I've never built a stone box nor a stone holder. Box construction is pretty basic,,,,, if you know how,,,, and if you have the right tools for the job. Working with "mini-tools" would be a nightmare.... even when the item you're making is "mini". If you've never flattened the backs of chisels, and you don't yet have a plane (or two), you might be quite surprised at what's involved. You need to have the ability to secure your work-pieces as you work, and you need the ability to make accurate/precise and uniform cuts.
Generally, when you buy your wood, it'll come already planed on both sides (S2S) surface-planed on 2-sides). It's often sold in units of "board-foot" and a 1 board- foot piece that's 6" wide and 1" thick, will be 2 feet long (1" thick x 1/2ft wide x 2ft long =1 board-foot. That would probably be more than enough wood for your needs,,, depending on what you finally want it to be. Also, since a 1" thick board refers to rough thickness (before being surfaced) it may actually be 7/8" thick if it's surfaced on one side, or, 3/4" thick if it's been planed (surfaced) on both sides.
Teak would probably be your best bet where water resistance is important. Treated Cypress might also work and treated cedar may be another option.
Now this is very important,,,,,, if you try to cut a short board on a table-saw of some sort, you have to be very very very careful to avoid kick-back. I can't overstate that enough. This can be very dangerous without the proper tools and skill-set. You can be seriously injured in the wink of an eye. How does "kick-back" happen? Well, as you feed let's say an 8" long board into a 10" saw, the first cut happens at the front of the blade which is rotating downward.. As you feed that board out the back of the blade, that portion of the blade is rotating upward at a very high rate of speed, well over 100mph. If that saw and its' fence are not properly aligned, you'll pinch the wood between the blade and fence, and that saw blade will kick that workpiece right back at you. People have been impaled and died from such accidents. A cross-cut sled is a much safer bet when working with shorter pieces, because there's no fence to trap the wood between the fence and blade.
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Grayswandir
Senior Member
The video on kickback was interesting, even though I don't own a table saw, nor have I ever used one. It's always good to learn about what can go wrong, especially when it comes to your safety or the safety of others. As I got older, I became much more interested in safety. Now I preach it to my children in all things. Having said that, I still do stupid things from time to time, and I have the scars to prove it! 
I thought about cedar and cypress, even acacia, but honestly, if I had some good scrap wood lying around, I'd use it. I can always add a waterpoof/resistant finish. It might not be ideal, but it's better then no protection at all. My choice of wood really depends on whether or not I plan to make a box that will last 100 years, or just something I need to kick around for a few years. I still haven't decided yet, but I'll probably go with something in the middle.
I'm going to make a base for the Nakayama first. A single piece of wood about 7" long should do it. I'll chisel out the wood so the stone is recessed into the top a little bit. Honestly, now that I think about it, the base could simply be the bottom of a box, if I choose to make it so.
I have the tools to lap the heel of the plane I'll eventually buy if I need to, and I have a circular saw, coping saw, hand saw, etc. so cutting the wood will not be a problem. Same deal in regards to sharpening chisels, I'll be fine, though if I need some advice I'll certainly ask.
There's so much I'd like to do, but I don't have the space or the money to do everything I'd like to at the moment. I just watched a cool little video on a bench hook last week that someone posted here. It made me want to go out and buy the materials needed to make one! I do all of my work at my desk. I don't have a proper bench at the moment. When I need more space, I pull out some saw horses and get to work. I have a decent bench vice, so when I plane the wood, that should do nicely.
I need to stop reading Paul Seller's blog, and stop watching his videos. The guy is addictive!
I thought about cedar and cypress, even acacia, but honestly, if I had some good scrap wood lying around, I'd use it. I can always add a waterpoof/resistant finish. It might not be ideal, but it's better then no protection at all. My choice of wood really depends on whether or not I plan to make a box that will last 100 years, or just something I need to kick around for a few years. I still haven't decided yet, but I'll probably go with something in the middle.
I'm going to make a base for the Nakayama first. A single piece of wood about 7" long should do it. I'll chisel out the wood so the stone is recessed into the top a little bit. Honestly, now that I think about it, the base could simply be the bottom of a box, if I choose to make it so.
I have the tools to lap the heel of the plane I'll eventually buy if I need to, and I have a circular saw, coping saw, hand saw, etc. so cutting the wood will not be a problem. Same deal in regards to sharpening chisels, I'll be fine, though if I need some advice I'll certainly ask.
There's so much I'd like to do, but I don't have the space or the money to do everything I'd like to at the moment. I just watched a cool little video on a bench hook last week that someone posted here. It made me want to go out and buy the materials needed to make one! I do all of my work at my desk. I don't have a proper bench at the moment. When I need more space, I pull out some saw horses and get to work. I have a decent bench vice, so when I plane the wood, that should do nicely.
I need to stop reading Paul Seller's blog, and stop watching his videos. The guy is addictive!
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
The video on kickback was interesting, even though I don't own a table saw, nor have I ever used one. It's always good to learn about what can go wrong, especially when it comes to your safety or the safety of others. As I got older, I became much more interested in safety. Now I preach it to my children in all things. Having said that, I still do stupid things from time to time, and I have the scars to prove it!
I thought about cedar and cypress, even acacia, but honestly, if I had some good scrap wood lying around, I'd use it. I can always add a waterpoof/resistant finish. It might not be ideal, but it's better then no protection at all. My choice of wood really depends on whether or not I plan to make a box that will last 100 years, or just something I need to kick around for a few years. I still haven't decided yet, but I'll probably go with something in the middle.
I'm going to make a base for the Nakayama first. A single piece of wood about 7" long should do it. I'll chisel out the wood so the stone is recessed into the top a little bit. Honestly, now that I think about it, the base could simply be the bottom of a box, if I choose to make it so.
I have the tools to lap the heel of the plane I'll eventually buy if I need to, and I have a circular saw, coping saw, hand saw, etc. so cutting the wood will not be a problem. Same deal in regards to sharpening chisels, I'll be fine, though if I need some advice I'll certainly ask.
There's so much I'd like to do, but I don't have the space or the money to do everything I'd like to at the moment. I just watched a cool little video on a bench hook last week that someone posted here. It made me want to go out and buy the materials needed to make one! I do all of my work at my desk. I don't have a proper bench at the moment. When I need more space, I pull out some saw horses and get to work. I have a decent bench vice, so when I plane the wood, that should do nicely.
I need to stop reading Paul Seller's blog, and stop watching his videos. The guy is addictive!
Yes, Paul Sellers is a true hand-tool master. David Charlsworth is another master-craftsman you might want to look into. Rob Cosman also ranks right up there.
Just a thought here, when you design the "box", if you go that route,,, you'll want to decide whether the bottom edge of the lid sits atop the base, or whether it wraps around the base. If it wraps around the base, you'll want to add side cut-outs in the sides of the lid in order for your fingers to grasp and lift the base and lid as one single unit.
Frankly, I don't see much point in using a plane if you go with pre-surface-finished wood. If you go with "whatever is laying around", then you'll possibly have to contend with knots and and wild grain-direction. You might want to do an advance mock-up/ prototype to see where that takes you, before proceeding to the final product.
Regarding support for the underside of your uneven stone,, the only thing I can think of off-hand, is adding a layer of plastic-wrap to the top of your base, then adding a layer of clear silicone-sealant, covered by another layer of plastic-wrap. Place your stone atop the silicon-sandwich, and the sealant will even out and harden, filling in the voids. That would be a water-proof solution, and cheap as well as easy to do. Once it hardens, you can easily trim it with a utility knife. The plastic wrap will prevent the silicone from sticking to the wooden base, and the under-side of your stone. You'll also want to secure the stone so that the top surface of the stone is parallel to the top of the base as the silicone hardens.
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