New guy, new knives, need 3-4 in total

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Simon T

Simon T

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Sep 13, 2019
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Hi all, just posted on the welcome section, you all seem like a great bunch.

Anyway I have decided to buy some decent knives, I love cooking but always hated my cheap knock-offs, cost me like $50.00 for a set in a shop.

I already have my first knife which i bought the other day, the Wusthof Santoku 5"

I do need help as I am spending more on the other knives, but having issues on finding out who is a good maker without it costing me $400.00 +

I like the look of the JCK Naturals, they seem not to chip as much as the shuns, only looking online, but they look like the Sakai Takayuki, and people are complaining that the handles are not finished the best and have gaps.

If I am going to spend $170.00 I would like the hammered Damascus look, I know they are not going to add anything to the performance, they will look nice though.

I tried several times to use whetstones, but the motion hurt my shoulder so much, I have a trapped nerve in my neck so unfortuatley I am either going to have to ship them off to get sharpened or buy a Electric or minosharp. I was looking at the Spyderco but that seems to have the same motions as the whetstones and you will need to spend 10 minutes or so trying to sharpen.

Anyway, on the next post is the questionnaire, took a while to fill out so hopefully I can find some real decent good looking knives.

I am in the UK so the only shops we have are JCK which will import. Knives and Tools, Kataba, Knives from Japan.. We dont have the best choice as you all from the States or Canada.
 
My Check Sheet:

LOCATION
UK - United Kingdom

KNIFE TYPE
Japanese Knives would like the following, but not all.Nakiri BunkaGyuto Detailing, Pearing knife Beater / Chopper

Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed,

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
I have bought my first decent Knife, a Wusthof Classic 5" Santoku which I like, but I would love to try the Japanese wood handles, I have no preference, even steel handles would be fine.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
1. Nakiri 7" and under.
2. Gyuto 21cm - 8.5" Max
3. Small Multi detail knife 4. Cleaver - Small and light as possible, I do not cut up huge amounts of chickens ect..

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Nothing that will patina. Do not want to worry about oiling or taking more care than I need to, I am just a good home cook.
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
First and foremost I want a Nakiri or Bunka, I can spend £150.00 or $170.00 Gyuto I can spend £100.00 or $125.00 Beater knife, maybe £50.00 or $75.00 - Needs to handle bones and not go blunt or chip - No plastic handles like Victorinox. Detail knife, peeler £75.00 or $90.00 - but this will not be my main knife, cheaper the better, but again, no plastic handles like the Victorinox (I dont mind Plastic handles like the Wusthof Classic, but do not want butcher type handles)

KNIFE USE:Home use only - But will be breaking down chickens and fish.
I cut a lot of Vegetables, salads, chicken breasts, fish, I may breakdown a chicken or 2Cut pineapple, Sweet Potatoes, Fruit. I will not be hitting a chicken so hard as to break to the bone, I usually go around the cartilage, hence the detailing knife, but if I do need to break a bone I need a small cleaver, smaller the better.
What knife, if any, are you replacing? Do not ask, i am embarrassed ha ha, cheap block sets that went though the dishwasher and pretended to be proper Japanese knives, cost less than $50.00 for 7 knives.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Firm grip around the handle and usually my index finder over the spine, apart from a chopper when I use a full grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
I am staring to change my technique, but have usually used the tip of my knife to cut through food. I would usually chop down to cut the item, then once its split (say a onion) I would start at the tip of the knife and drag/slice the knife down. I usually rely on the point, hence why I am starting to change the way I cut, but this can take some time with a lifetime of cutting this way

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Lets be honest, my knives are so bad that if that I touched a tomato it would just mush them.Dishwasher beatings and rust spots. I now have the money to buy a few knifes and say see ya latter to my current knives. I love home cooking. Even after a busy day at work, I love coming home and spending a hour or so in the kitchen. I deserve new knives, don't judge my skills by my current knives me ha ha

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I really like the Damascus look with hammered texture, but do not want it to hurt the function of the knife. As before it seems Shun will chip even if you look at them.As I work with a lot of Veg and potatoes I like the Ganton/Flutted or dimpled knives. (Like the look of Glestain knives but seem hard to sharpen) Would be happy with a more expensive nakiri with $175.00

Comfort:
I really do not mind, I have small hands for a 5.10" frame, I do not mind all steel, wood or plastic) - I have tried Global, Wa-Handles and Plastic like the Wusthof, they all feel great)

IMPORTANT PART:
I bought some whetstones to try on my old knives, and whilst i am sure I can get the hang of it, my C5-C6 spine, its in my neck, it causes severe pain with the motion.I know its hard to understand, but if i bend over a little or lean over a bit whilst doing a repetitive motion, it really hurts so bad,, so I will need to use an electric, minosharp.
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I am happy with soft or hard

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
I was using bamboo and plastic, but I have just bought a solid walnut board which its on its way. Its being made for me.
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, but due to a certain injury I find it hard to use stones, so will either be a pro sharpen, or minorsharp or electric, maybe the CC Japanese model.
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I had started until I realized it was causing a lot of pain, so cannot use stones.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
1. Nakiri 2. Gyuto 3. Small Pearing / Multi use knife for detailed getting around small fish bones ect.. 4" or less 4. Beater Knife, for bones and hard veg. 5. I am interest in a Bunka, but would be in place of a Nakiri or Gyuto, cannot afford both.6. I do not cut up large amounts of bones, so may fit me better than a huge cleaver. (Shiki Chopper 5.9" either Aus-8 or 440C from JCK $75.00)
 
A completely uneducated guess: were you sharpening on something very low? I can’t see the motions of sharpening being inherently harmful, it’s basically a near body push pull motion which should barely use your neck muscles at all. I’m short (5’10) so I have no trouble on a counter top but if your taller maybe try stacking the surface or just sitting down.

Like you, I’m a knife beginner with a similar budget. I bought a short chinese clever and paring knife (maker made his own steel, so some form of carbon steel) and a 210 super blue gyuto.

I love all three knives dearly though I tend to use the Chinese knives more as I’m unclear about my ability to sharpen the asymmetric Gyuto. But I think it’s a good trio for a home cook (in hand knife, bone smasher/ vegetable slicer and general purpose blade).

As an aside from a fellow Englishman: don’t be afraid of buying whole chickens and partitioning or cooking them after, Chicken bits are invariably made of highly processed animal flesh. I didn’t learn that lesson till I was in rural t*bet for month.
 
Thanks for that scribbled.
I am not sure what it was, the stone was not low, it was just the process of moving it away and the stretch I did, its a very frustrating injury, I can even hurt myself sometimes by grabbing a pint glass. Funny thing is that I have no issues grabbing a heavy bag and lifting it.

I have been looking at the Tojiro DP - but thats $100.00 or £75.00
Seto Isey i-6 for £120.00 $100.00
Sakai Takayuki for £130.00
Tanaka VG10 but thats a bit more than I wanted to pay at £162.00
Shiki Chopper $75.00 AUS-8 or 440C for breaking down protein.
Or I could just stick with another Wusthof, but I would really like a nice Japanese one.

If anyone can think of anything else from JCK or Knives and tools, Kataba, Japanese knife company, Cleancut - seems to be a EU shop I have never dealt with.

Thanks again for all your time
 
Can anyone help me buy, I do not want to waste my money.

Looking for a Bunka or Nakiri, must have hammered and Damascus looks. I know its only for show, this is only why I want it, but they do have VG10 .

I am leaning towards the Sakai Takayuki for £130.00 with a Wa handle.

Seto Iseya for the same price as well.

To me they all look like the same blade, but unsure if one has a better finish over the others.
Whats your thoughts

Thanks again for your help
 
I hope that this comes across as a constructive re-framing of your question:

I suspect that the lack of response to your question is because it is a little bit different to "which knife" questions that we are used to dealing with. For a few reasons:

1) Your sharpening plan is not going to get the best out of a nice knife.

2) Recommending 4 knives at once throws up so many permutations as to make it difficult to get ones head around.

3) The tasks that you evisage for some of your knives is a little different to what we are used to.

So,

A gyuto is where I would normally recommend that you start. It is more versatile than a nakiri. A gyuto can do everything that a nakiri can but the converse is not true. This is especially the case if your cutting technique utilises a tip. Given that you can use agyuto for 90% plus of your prep, I would suggest spending most of your budget on a gyuto. In your situation to start with one good gyuto with good edge retention. Maybe a PM steel like R2/SG2 or perhaps well heat treated VG10. When the time comes, have it professionally sharpened (on waterstones) by someone who is used to maintaining and thinning Japanese knives. Don't use an electric sharpener on good Japanese style knives. Please.

I don't use my gyutos on bone. Ever. They never go in the dishwasher. Ever. EVER. I don't scrape with the edge (I flip the knife over and use the spine). Using a good knife in this way is about as good an idea as using a F1 racecar for an extreme offroad trek. If you really do insist on using your chef's knife as a beater, get something made of softer very stainless steel that will be amenable to steeling. Most mass- market Western knives fit this bill. Victorinox is an affordable example. I still don't put my beater knives in the dishwasher. How hard is it to hand wash them and dry them?

In the food release stakes, grantons and flutes are no match for a well executed food relese grind (usually a convex right blade face or an S grind).

Damascus (and to an extent a hammered pattern) will add to the cost of a knife without any increase in performance. Pretty, affordable, good performance- pick any two. They can also make a knife difficult to maintain- Damascus needs to be refinished and re-etched after thinning. Most hammered patterns are wide bevelled knives, so this is less of an issue for them.

When we say "cleaver", we usually mean a Chinese vegetable cleaver, which is a thin knife which should never be used on bone. I suspect that you are instead referring to a Western meat cleaver which is more like an axe than a knife. Cheap stainless versions of these are readily available at catering supply shops and should be all that you need. I use mine maybe half a dozen times a year.

FWIW, both Cleancut and Japanese Natural Stones are well regarded EU retailers BUT... Neither are currently KKF sponsors. Can you buy from a KKF Sponsor outside of EU after Brexit?
 
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Hi Nemo, thanks for the response.
I am aware that I am not going to get the best of my knives if I cannot use stones, hence why I will probably be sending them out to a professional, I don't think this should stop people offering help.

Unfortunately I cannot buy anything from US stores, the tax and customs alone would make it very expensive, hence why I will need to buy from any EU stores or JCK.

I know not to put any of my new knives in the dishwasher.

If anyone knows of a good hammered damascus knife, I would appreciate your input, I have only seen 2 brands in my price range, the Sakai Takayuki or Seto Isey, I am unsure if these are good brands.

I can spend $175.00 on a Nakiri or Bunka.

As far as a Gyuto, it will probably be a AUS-10 or VG10, this will not be hammered or damascus, but again I am unsure which to buy from JCK or from a EU / UK retailer.

I hope I am not confusing anyone with my question, I just wanted to know of a good Hammered damascus knife for around £175.00 ish

Thanks again all.
 
Hey man. I would advise against JKC. They are, in my subjective experience, the worst value for money for jknives in the UK. They also claim that all of their knives are produced for them, and they might be, but you will find the same knife, same steel, handle and all, for cheaper and with the named maker in other places.

I personally would recommend Cleancut, but there are a couple of retailers in the UK as well. Cleancut is a bunch of swedish guys, but they are easily the market leaders right now. Sharpedgeshop.com seems OK as well and is in EU, but beware as they are super into promoting the ZDP Bunka Black. It may well be a great knife, but I would be cautious. There's also cuttingedgeknives in UK, who have some good brands.
 
Thanks so much for the heads up @DisconnectedAG

I have noticed the JCK naturals look exactly the same as Sakai takayuki.
Really appreciate the shop recommendations. I am buying 1. Nakiri and 1.Bunka I will be using these knives the most.
I already managed to get an amazing deal on a Global 20.5cm Gyuto, its the Sai brand and was only 50.00, couldn't pass it up at that price.
Got my walnut 50cm x 50cm board coming Wednesday, its being custom made.
Hopefully I will have my home prep station all set up by Friday.
If anyone else has any brand and price advice, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks again @DisconnectedAG That's the type of advice I need for just buying knives.
 
Happy to help. BTW, a lot of people hate on Global here. If you don't mind the handle, you will have a good time with it. The grind and steel are, in my personal view, much better than similarly priced CroMoVa from Wursthof and others.

If you're sharpening it yourself, be aware that the factory grind is a very unique aggressive miniconvex near the bevel, and if you're not paying attention it's easy to grind away at the bevel itself while sharpening, without actually getting to the apex.

Some people like to thin Globals aggressively, I personally would say ride the factory edge until it doesn't cut smoothly and then thin some and sharpen.

Or, if you're in London and need sharpening, let me know. I don't mind sorting out a few globals here and there.

EDIT: The guys at Knives and Tools are bloody brilliant. Maybe not for premium knives, but for all things sharpening. Love them and have only had stellar experiences. A majority of my stones come from them.
 
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Thanks again @DisconnectedAG
I know a lot of people are not huge fans of global, but £50.00 for a 20.5cm Sai Gyuto, I could not pass it up.
The price on Amazon has went back up to £190.00 so £50.00 was a STEEL Ha Ha.

The funny thing is that I went into this with Global in mind, as I wanted one since I was about 20, but upon all my searches and all the reviews, it seems Global is not
the greatest choice, and there are a lot better knives than Global, hence why my first purchase was a Whustof Santoku, I really cannot understand how global can charge £100.00 for a basic run of the mill knife, but you can get a better authentic Japanese knife for cheaper, if not you will have a better steel and edge for the same price.

I have now made my mind up.
I am buying a Sakai Takauki 45 layer AEB-l core with cutting edge.co.uk, its £120.00 Seems a good price for what you are getting.
I was going to get the Masakage VG10 with a 15 layer Damascus layer for £105.00, but its VG10 and from what I have learnt is that its a hard steel to sharpen.

I appreciate the passion of using whetstones, but when I cannot stand there for 10 minutes with the motions I need to do, then I need to find alternative sharpening methods.
I need surgery so for now its either the following:

Chefs Choice Asian 15 degree sharpener
Minosharp 3
Or possibly the spiderco, but again seems like the type of movements I will need to do with whetstones.

I have already bought whetstones and I am practicing on my cheap knives, so please do not think I will be using electric sharpeners for my lifetime.
TBH I will probably bring my knives to a pro to sharpen for now

@DisconnectedAG How much does a knife cost to sharpen, anywhere from a 160mm to 210mm ?

Thanks again for all your help
 
Hi from another Simon in the UK, welcome.
I understand your situation regarding sourcing the range of knives seen on this forum - don't be afraid to look overseas... I've bought 2 from Knives & Stones (Australia) avoiding extra charges with incredible short delivery times. The Tanaka Ginsan (stainless) gyuto is a fab start into these knives.
I also have some info on the Seto Iseya knives as I have a petty in VG 10. Honestly it's great for what it does, I didnt find it hard to sharpen the one time I've had to so far, it's a good little knife. I don't think I'd get a bigger knife from them though.
Cutting Edge, Cleancut and Knives& Tools all great to buy from in my experience.
 
By all accounts AEB-L is a solid choice. A lot of great makers seem to favour it (at least recently in my IG feed) and I'm sure you'll have a good time. I haven't tried the Sakai Takayuki knives, but they seem to be a solid choice. When it comes to sharpening, honestly, with an AEB-L core or even with a VG10 core you don't want a pull through as you may well end up chipping the blade instead of getting it sharp. That being said, I've never had any issues sharpening VG10. It's not my favourite steel to sharpen, because I find it doesn't take the same refined edge as a simpler carbon steel, but it does get very sharp. My VG10 experience primarily comes from Yaxell. Overpriced but reliable steel. For what it's worth I find R2 the most difficult steel to sharpen. On my fingers it just seems so resilient. Much harder to get a decent burr compared to either White or Blue or even 1095.

If you want to discuss hand sharpening, PM me. Totally understand that the movements no longer agree with you. I have the same problem at home - my sink is very low at home and I need to sort it out as I can feel it in my back after having a longer session.

For sharpening, look up some options near you as well. Depending on where you are in the UK you may well have local options that you may prefer. The sharpening community is super friendly. There's a guy in Sheffield for example who seems amazing (I follow him on IG, his work is very inspiring).

Re Global, honestly it's a solid performer and it keeps the edge for a reasonable time. It also has no bolster, which most of the Wursts have, at least in the basic ranges.
 
Again Thanks so much for your help @DisconnectedAG
So I have a Gyuto 210mm which is more than enough for my home cooking needs
A 5inch wusthof santoku for smaller prep needs. I didn't get the 7inch as I only wanted it for more detailed prep
The new Nakiri, coming soon.
Now I just need a Bunka, may buy from the same company, when I called they were amazing on the phone
Finally a knife for breaking down chickens and fish.
Will post another thread on which beater to buy.
Thanks again
 
Unpopular opinion - don't get a deba right off the bad. The Victorinox Swibo boning and filleting knives are genuinely great. The handle is orange, but the quality is top notch. And they will set you back 40 quid.
 
I was looking at a Deba, but I need to ensure its not going to crack if I hammer a bone with it.
I was looking at a cleaver, but personally I do not like them, they are huge, and if I am only breaking down a small chicken, it feels you are using a machine gun to kill a butterfly.

So many people have mentioned Victorinox, I think I will get one to smash bones with.

I was actually looking at this for my boning needs:
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...m-4-3inch-440c-clad-blade-bubinga-wood-handle

As you can tell, I do not like huge massive knives, I am more a lover than a fighter ha ha

I just received my SAI Global 21cm gyuto, still cant believe I managed to get it for £50.00, I think it feels amazing.
I can see how people do not like the metal handles, but it is great quality and feels great in my hand.
 
Speaking of cleavers, JapaneseKnifeCompany used to have a small cleaver for 30 quid that may well become a friend of yours. I have it, it's OK. Gets sharp and can take a huge beating. I use it for mincing chicken, but have ran it through bone as well. Check it out. I wouldn't necessarily fillet fish with it though.
 
The cheapest I can see if the one I was looking at, $75.00 for the Shiki Mini Chopper.

I posted a new thread to see which knife is best. I only need 1 or 2 more knives to complete my collection.

I need a beater, and a small paring/detailing knife, dont want anything too small, maybe 5" 10.5cm blade length.
 
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