Old Sabatier (?) find

[baggyjorts]

Got this on ebay a little while back because it seemed interesting, and wanted to see if others could confirm what it is and if it seems like it was a decent grab. It's certainly not in ideal condition - has been sharpened to hell and then has what seems to be a fairly half-hearted attempt at thinning.

288x48 mm, 298 g

Mark is a bit faded, but from what I can see in that second photo (and from the handle and general appearance of the knife), it seems to be the same make as this one Vintage Early Sabatier 12" Chef's Knife, LA Trompette or Trumpet Brand, France | #1889320577 which claims that it's a 1880-1920 make. Is worthpoint at all reputable source for that? And does that date seem possible?

Regardless, gonna do some work on it. Need to thin heavily and ideally work out that bit of a hump near the front of the blade. Then debating if I'd want to polish the whole thing (mainly because my thinning job is not going to be great and I'm not sure how I'd make it look alright without a bit more intensive polishing w sandpaper)

Happy to post more photos if anyone wants to see more.

 

[McMan]

La Trompette is one of the Sabatier brands that actually is a few different brands...
That one isn't 1880-1920. You can tell by the handle. That period would have had a nogent handle (one-piece with rat-tail tang). Figure 40s-50s for that one. It'll be great once you get it cleaned up!

 

[baggyjorts]

Gotcha, that makes sense, I think that's what actually had been advertised. Just having trouble finding specifics on how to tell with these. Thanks! And yeah, however old it is I'm happy to have it and have a little project for myself (and a badass gigantic knife obviously)

 

[Ericfg]

Nice knife!!!

That's my 'thing' currently; buying and restoring older Western knives. Keep us updated on the project, please. I like the before, during, and after posts.

That knife looks to have a very good, original profile to it. I, personally, would leave it as is. How thick's the spine and does it taper a lot from bolster area to the tip?

I polished an old Henckels recently up to 1000 grit and I really liked the results. I'll try and add a photo shortly.

And the handle looks to be in great shape as well. Some cleaning, polishing and oil will make that look a lot nicer, too. That is a wooden handle, right? At some point Sab started with rubber/plastic handles...

Before and after image.

 

[baggyjorts]

It's got a decent taper, I'm out of town at the moment but could post a photo later, but think it's roughly 3mm out of the handle. And yeah, the handle's in nice condition, very happy with that! There are some small gaps between the wood and tang in spots, will probably just try to be careful with water.

And yeah, likely not going to try to do much with the profile, but the thinning is underway. It's lost a couple grams and had some small bends revealed, fair amount of high/low spots. But think it's minimal enough that I can thin them out, just gonna take some elbow grease. And I still need to thin a bunch just to get the edge usable again. Work in progress!

 

[Ericfg]

There are some small gaps between the wood and tang in spots, will probably just try to be careful with water.

Try some moderate dollops of epoxy to help keep the water out.

 

[btbyrd]

I have an old Sab that had a few small gaps in the handle. My solution was to pop the handle end of the knife in a Zipock bag with some beeswax and let it hang out in a sous vide bath for like 20 or 30 minutes at 145F (just above the melting point of the wax). I agitated the bag every few minutes to help move the wax around. After I pulled the bag out, I let the wax harden and scraped off the excess. The wax both conditioned the wood and filled in the gaps. Easier than dealing with epoxy, and the wood feels great!

 

[baggyjorts]

I have an old Sab that had a few small gaps in the handle. My solution was to pop the handle end of the knife in a Zipock bag with some beeswax and let it hang out in a sous vide bath for like 20 or 30 minutes at 145F (just above the melting point of the wax). I agitated the bag every few minutes to help move the wax around. After I pulled the bag out, I let the wax harden and scraped off the excess. The wax both conditioned the wood and filled in the gaps. Easier than dealing with epoxy, and the wood feels great!

Ooh interesting. Yeah I'd rather not hassle with epoxy (don't know if it's particularly easy to work with, I just haven't before) but I think I might try this out post-thinning/polishing. The wax in the cracks stays firm enough that it doesn't spread around a bit with normal use?

 

[Ericfg]

Yeah I'd rather not hassle with epoxy (don't know if it's particularly easy to work with, I just haven't before).
The wax in the cracks stays firm enough that it doesn't spread around a bit with normal use?

Using epoxy isn't that difficult, in fact I use one that requires no mixing. But if you're not comfortable that's fine.

 

[baggyjorts]

Which one do you use?

 

[cotedupy]

Nice knife!!!

That's my 'thing' currently; buying and restoring older Western knives. Keep us updated on the project, please. I like the before, during, and after posts.

That knife looks to have a very good, original profile to it. I, personally, would leave it as is. How thick's the spine and does it taper a lot from bolster area to the tip?

I polished an old Henckels recently up to 1000 grit and I really liked the results. I'll try and add a photo shortly.

And the handle looks to be in great shape as well. Some cleaning, polishing and oil will make that look a lot nicer, too. That is a wooden handle, right? At some point Sab started with rubber/plastic handles...

Before and after image.
View attachment 126924

Interesting you say that the profile looks original, as I've never seen a sab of this kind've age with a profile like that. Is that how the longer ones like this would've looked then...? (With almost no curve to most of the edge.)

 

[Ericfg]

Interesting you say that the profile looks original, as I've never seen a sab of this kind've age with a profile like that. Is that how the longer ones like this would've looked then...? (With almost no curve to most of the edge.)

Ya know, I could be way off base. I have almost no knowledge about Sabs and French knife design and history.
Maybe what I should have said was 'that profile looks a lot like the post-WW2, stainless, German knives that a lot of people used to claim were influenced by the French, French cuisine and Sabatier in particular.'
I do like that profile though, be it original or not. It looks completely functional.

 

[Ericfg]

No to derail this thread but here is an image of a French-made knife, by E Dehillerin , that I was watching on ebay. (Sold for $60 BTW)
Similar, IMO, to Sab above, and also the pre-stainless German profiles.

 

[Logan09]

French-made knife, by E Dehillerin

E. Dehillerin is a department store that has a tendency to stamp their name on everything they get(even used items) that Sabatier above is very likely a rebranded K Sabatier. Actually it looks pretty close to an Acier forge Sab I have.

 

[cotedupy]

Ya know, I could be way off base. I have almost no knowledge about Sabs and French knife design and history.
Maybe what I should have said was 'that profile looks a lot like the post-WW2, stainless, German knives that a lot of people used to claim were influenced by the French, French cuisine and Sabatier in particular.'
I do like that profile though, be it original or not. It looks completely functional.

Ah I was probably over-thinking it slightly, as it just looked a smidgen straighter in the middle than your pic. Which might well just be because OP's knife is pretty sizeable for a chef's knife, the one's I've seen / handled are more in the 9-10" range.

And $60 didn't seem to bad for that knife, you weren't tempted...?

 

[baggyjorts]

@Ericfg , still curious - what's your epoxy of choice for sealing handles like this?

 

[Ericfg]

@Ericfg , still curious - what's your epoxy of choice for sealing handles like this?

OMG, I totally missed your question! So sorry.
Right now I'm using 'Gorilla' products as they are common, local, cheap and very sticky.
I'm using Gorrilla's 'Clear Epoxy', which is a two-part adhesive, and their 'Clear Glue'. I've only been using them for less than a year so I can't speak for their lifespan but but so far I've been very happy. I've also mixed sawdust with both to get colored adhesive with good results.

> And $60 didn't seem to bad for that knife, you weren't tempted...?
It was on my watch list but I've got that Henx 102 on the way so I'll be busy for the next week or two.

 

[baggyjorts]

That's my 'thing' currently; buying and restoring older Western knives. Keep us updated on the project, please. I like the before, during, and after posts.

Here's a "during" post for ya. Currently thinning the entire face... think it's needed but maybe I'm a fool. After a bit more of this to even out the surface a bit, planning on thinning at a slightly higher angle (so maybe like a sort of wide bevel? Maybe I should have just started with a higher angle and not done what I'm doing?) and then might try to blend it a little. I don't know what I'm doing, especially with this specific knife, so advice/feedback appreciated

 

[McMan]

I had a closer look at the photos...
That's a nice old one--the Bolster is very thin (and these got thicker over time) and it's got the old-style birds-eye rivets.
Best part--it looks like someone took very good care of it. You can see that the bolster has been raised so that it won't get in the way of the edge when sharpening. You can also see that the knife has lost a lot of height over its life, but the profile is still straight and the tip is not goofy.
Have you tried it yet to verify that it needs thinning?
If it does, your plan makes sense. I'd suggest instead of laying the whole face down, that you raise the spine a hair. This will focus the thinning on the lowest third of the blade (you can be more aggressive at the tip). Also, these old sabs had really nice distal taper. So, if you find that some of this has been lost, then go easy at the heel and really put in work at the tip. This will help buy back some taper.
Spend some time on this one and you'll be rewarded with a nice one!

 

[baggyjorts]

I have tried cutting, it's okay but def QUITE thick behind the edge. You can tell visually but tough to capture in photo (no choil shots with the bolster obviously). And makes sense. Thanks!

 

[baggyjorts]

Been working fairly slowly on this, but finally another update for you @Ericfg - roughly 6 g off (don't quite know because my initial weighing was somehow off, think starting weight was 318ish). Down to 312, still could stand with a bit more thinning but have to deal with the bolster a bit as the profile has the slightest bit of an inverse belly (don't know what the actual term for that is).

But I also decided to reward myself a little - put an edge on it, polish it a little, and see how it feels for now.

Didn't polish enough with the rough grit to get out all the pitting, on one hand it adds a little character but on the other it's a bit irregular, so will probably go back at some point.

 

[baggyjorts]

Just up to 1000 grit for now with the polish, once I rework some of it a little I'll probably go a little higher.

 

[Ericfg]

Looks great!

Currently thinning the entire face...

Is that like polishing? Or more sanding with coarse medium on a flat plate? (I haven't read past your 5/18 post yet.)

> still could stand with a bit more thinning but have to deal with the bolster a bit as the profile has the slightest bit of an inverse belly (don't know what the actual term for that is).
Yeah, that bolster area is always a SoB. (past 5/18)

> Didn't polish enough with the rough grit to get out all the pitting, on one hand it adds a little character but on the other it's a bit irregular, so will probably go back at some point.
It would take some really coarse sanding/grinding medium to remove those deep pits. IM very HO that would change the history of the knife. I have the same issues in some of my rehab knives; those bits of heavy pitting that stay dark. There's gotta be an unobtrusive way to remove that dark 'patina' in that pit area. By the same token it does add character like you say. And when they're away from the edge they won't affect performance too much.

 

[baggyjorts]

I had been using my 120 plate on the full face for a bit to take off a little material and try to even out some of the high/low spots on the sides of the blade. I don't think it was a bad idea but still that thinning lower 1/3 of blade and polishing is a better use of time

 

[Ericfg]

I had been using my 120 plate on the full face for a bit to take off a little material and try to even out some of the high/low spots on the sides of the blade.

Gotcha. Good plan. Curious how much time you put into that 120 plate work?

I don't think it was a bad idea but still that thinning lower 1/3 of blade and polishing is a better use of time

Eh, a couple hours of hard work never kilt nobody. Worst case scenario, besides epic damage, is a lesson learned.

 

[Benuser]

No to derail this thread but here is an image of a French-made knife, by E Dehillerin , that I was watching on ebay. (Sold for $60 BTW)
Similar, IMO, to Sab above, and also the pre-stainless German profiles.
View attachment 127526

That's more or less how a Sab looks like. That doesn't say much about this very knife. Apart from all possible bad surprises I suspect oversteeling just before the upswing, if not a masked reverse belly.

 

[baggyjorts]

Gotcha. Good plan. Curious how much time you put into that 120 plate work?

Not entirely sure at this point, but I think around 2-3 hours. Honestly hard to keep track of time while thinning, it's sort of trance-inducing

 

[Bobby2shots]

Here's a "during" post for ya. Currently thinning the entire face... think it's needed but maybe I'm a fool. After a bit more of this to even out the surface a bit, planning on thinning at a slightly higher angle (so maybe like a sort of wide bevel? Maybe I should have just started with a higher angle and not done what I'm doing?) and then might try to blend it a little. I don't know what I'm doing, especially with this specific knife, so advice/feedback appreciated

Hi Baggyjorts,

Maybe this video will be helpful. If you don't want to watch it in it's entirety, just start at the 6:54 mark.

 

[baggyjorts]

Somewhat overdue update - have taken a lot of material off the knife, and could do more, but getting emotionally fatigued and needed a reward for the work that I've put in so far. So put a decent edge on it, did a mediocre job polishing with sandpaper, and am going to use it for a little while before putting any more work in!

Not 100% sure about my decision to grind off as much bolster as I did... Seems like the move for ease of thinning so I talked myself into it and it certainly doesn't look bad, but there's something specific in the character of the full bolster. Oh well :/ live and learn I suppose.

Overall took about 15 grams off - my initial weighing somehow was off but I think I got an accurate weight about 3 g in to removal based on how long I had spent. 5-6 of the grams are the bolster removal, the rest from thinning. So started roughly ~318 g, it's now 303

Photo after patina from one ribeye. Very pleased to have this usable!

 

[Benuser]

In general I'm reluctant about removing the entire fingerguard. In this case though the result is tasteful with the curved choil and slightly indent heel. It's matching with the existing form. I now see what is my problem in other cases: with an aggressively cut fingerguard I still miss something. It looks like if an amputation has taken place. Not so here. Congratulations!