SG 220 compared to the SP 220

[Bear]

My SG 220 is done, I'm wondering how these two compare.
I use this with my SG320, the 320 helps with scratch management but its almost in the same shape.

 

[daveb]

I'm finding love with Nanahone 100 then stepping to SG500. The N100 leaves a better scratch pattern than the SG220 and gets it done quicker. Gave away a SP220 - couldn't find any joy.

 

[cotedupy]

I have the SP220 (I think), and I really like it. It is pretty muddy though, if that's not your bag.

I've not used the SG220, but I think @inferno has done some proper side by side comparisons so may be able to offer some thoughts too...

 

[mengwong]

the glass 220 is a very very fast stone make no mistake. its all you ever gonna need to repair and resharpen.
it stays flat longer than the pro220 and it cuts faster, and wears slower.

 

[Cliff]

I'm still liking Debado 180 in this range

 

[mengwong]

I'm still liking Debado 180 in this range

I will emphatically second this suggestion.

Ive retired my SP120 and SG220.

Debado 180 was on my list to replace Sigma 240 when it’ll be dead. Guess I’ll make it head of the list now

 

[ModRQC]

Meanwhile I've gotten great service from the Nanohone 200. It's a bit of a disputed stone, so with experience of the Sigma 240, as well as a couple experiences with the 200 grits range (Pride 220, Pink Brick) and a few varied muddier soakers to cleaner S&G around the 300-400 mark:

For speed with anything you'll throw at it, I've not known better than a Sigma. Scratch pattern will have strays of course but it's very well behaved for speed and wide effeciency. Dishes quite fast, mud unforgivingly effective - not always a con depending on the geometry you're trying to preserve/enhance AND thin, but it also means a wide margin of imprecision and additional work in polishing that isn't going to be clearly levied by the Sigma base speed.

Nanohone's effective speed is not like the Sigma, but it's nothing like 300-400 range neither. It'll be less noticeable perhaps if working on a wide range of steels and geometries because it's in my sense a much more chosey stone, and if I had to generalize, I'd just say it's either not worth spending it, either ineffective spending it, towards grinding cheaper knives, or doing any work of any kind on these. The Sigma was not particularly more... "adapted" to it if you will but it could and would do anything with the expected effectiveness. However most of us deal with rather fancier knives when spending twice the average prices of coarse stones, so I guess it sort of goes with the territory in a logical way. But I do not recommend the Nanohone for an all around at all. What I'd recommend it for is a very quiet scratch pattern with a nice haze already, good speeds, and as precise and tidy as you could wish for in that grit range.

From the various reports about the Debado, I sort of would expect it to be faster than the Sigma, feelingbetter than both Sigma and Nanohone, and be rather tidier than muddy stones, possibly on par with the Nanohone except some more pain with deeper scratches. Which would not be SO much pain compared to some coarse alternatives. And if the Debado 180 is just about what I suppose it'd be, then yeah I totally want to get one.

Last but not least, both Sigma and Nanohone can be effectively dealt with using an Atoma 140. That's perhaps something I wouldn't be entirely sure to expect from the Debado. I admit, again, that because it dishes more, and because it is coarser and releasing abrasives like a maniac, the Sigma pushes the Atoma to its limits much more than the Nanohone ever will. So IF the Debado 180 is just like the Sigma on that matter and no worse, then again, I really have to try one.

My curosity is high with the Debado, and one of my favorite vendors actually has a nice price for it.

Edit... but I've just sold my Sukenari HAP to a relative, and really for the steels in my array now, I don't need anything I don't already have. However being with a relative, the HAP is bound to come back to me, and it needs to be a rigorously continued geometry maintenance at every sharpening, so... it's tempting to try the Debado and have it at hand.

 

[Cliff]

I've never tried Sigma or Nanohone. I wouldn't use an Atoma on the Debado 180 -- I don't think it would work. But the scratch pattern on the Debado is very civilized. Scratches come out easily with JNS 300. I don't think it would be too big a jump to get to SG500, though it would take more effort, obviously.

 

[ModRQC]

I've never tried Sigma or Nanohone. I wouldn't use an Atoma on the Debado 180 -- I don't think it would work. But the scratch pattern on the Debado is very civilized. Scratches come out easily with JNS 300. I don't think it would be too big a jump to get to SG500, though it would take more effort, obviously.

If a scratch pattern is civilized usually the Atoma will work. Its toughest test as I said was a Sigma 240, it's abrasives are coarse and a plenty, and they don't break down so immediately into a much finer mud. The Atoma clogs easily from it, retaining excessively stubborn and coarse abrasives in between the diamond pattern, and if overcarried will be eaten at the center/exact holding and flattening style most pressure points. Hell, even brushing the clogged abrasives off under running water wth a soft nylon brush it'll be stubborn, each particule dislodging I'd believe still taking a very infinitesimal toll to wherever they roam before going deeper into the brush or getting rinsed off...

Seems overly defensive, but maybe just maybe I have an experience of an Atoma that followed the Sigma within its 3-4 last mm (then my thinning approach evolved and I got the Nanohone and stuck to it since), and flattened like 20 other stones of all grits upwards including a good while with the much latest Nanohone... reducing a few of them stones, and mostly coarser ones, to a pulp in the meanwhile... And it's still quite usable. Possibly more so with coarser stones. I think that, second to Sigma 240's very direct mayhem to it, some of the also easily clogging quite fine stones are also killing it some faster than you'd think... I'd say possibly rounding the embedded synths a bit ahead of time, also more direly into the center or most pressure points.

I think excessive stubborn clogging is where the Atoma can be hurt in the long run where you wouldn't notice it immediately so much. The only stone that the Atoma cannot do that I've tried is the pink brick. And it also clogs it quite readily, but even before getting there the effort feels utterly useless. Lot of pink slurry, not much going on in ways of even resurfacing it.

 

[Cliff]

I guess you could use an Atoma 140 to help get the Debado going or deglaze, but I don't think it would work well to flatten it, not that the Debado dishes quickly.

 

[M1k3]

If a scratch pattern is civilized usually the Atoma will work. Its toughest test as I said was a Sigma 240, it's abrasives are coarse and a plenty, and they don't break down so immediately into a much finer mud. The Atoma clogs easily from it, retaining excessively stubborn and coarse abrasives in between the diamond pattern, and if overcarried will be eaten at the center/exact holding and flattening style most pressure points. Hell, even brushing the clogged abrasives off under running water wth a soft nylon brush it'll be stubborn, each particule dislodging I'd believe still taking a very infinitesimal toll to wherever they roam before going deeper into the brush or getting rinsed off...

Seems overly defensive, but maybe just maybe I have an experience of an Atoma that followed the Sigma within its 3-4 last mm (then my thinning approach evolved and I got the Nanohone and stuck to it since), and flattened like 20 other stones of all grits upwards including a good while with the much latest Nanohone... reducing a few of them stones, and mostly coarser ones, to a pulp in the meanwhile... And it's still quite usable. Possibly more so with coarser stones. I think that, second to Sigma 240's very direct mayhem to it, some of the also easily clogging quite fine stones are also killing it some faster than you'd think... I'd say possibly rounding the embedded synths a bit ahead of time, also more direly into the center or most pressure points.

I think excessive stubborn clogging is where the Atoma can be hurt in the long run where you wouldn't notice it immediately so much. The only stone that the Atoma cannot do that I've tried is the pink brick. And it also clogs it quite readily, but even before getting there the effort feels utterly useless. Lot of pink slurry, not much going on in ways of even resurfacing it.

For the Sigma 240, 60 grit sandpaper is your friend.

 

[mike59]

Not speaking from experience but if I remember correctly the SP220 was reported to work well with all steels whereas the SG220 was not as good on what most folks here would call the cheap steels. I actually purchased an SP220 for this reason but through a comedy of vendor errors I don't have one and have never used either so perhaps others can confirm or deny.

I also think that @inferno did some pretty extensive testing of multiple stones that included the SP220 and maybe SG220 and several others but can't seem to find it right now.

 

[ModRQC]

Not speaking from experience but if I remember correctly the SP220 was reported to work well with all steels whereas the SG220 was not as good on what most folks here would call the cheap steels. I actually purchased an SP220 for this reason but through a comedy of vendor errors I don't have one and have never used either so perhaps others can confirm or deny.

I also think that @inferno did some pretty extensive testing of multiple stones that included the SP220 and maybe SG220 and several others but can't seem to find it right now.

You’d be talking about that…

i wanted to see how much steel my some of my stones remove, so i tested that.
test subject was a stainless clad aus-8 deba that i had done some destructive tests with.
i did 300 "cycles" on each stone and then simply weighed the blade inbetween.

1 cycle = 1 forward and 1 backward stroke.
the applied force was whatever i deemed suitable for that particular stone. basically what i would normally use when thinning/polishing with that stone.

the scale has a resolution of 10mg, repeatability of +-10mg, linearity of 30mg (not relevant in this test), warmup time 2min. calibrated just before.
i averaged several measurements for each stone.

all stones were flattened on the diaflat 160 before use, except the 12k shapton, it was flattened on the 12k superstone.

View attachment 91396

results for 300 cycles:

390mg - shapton pro 220
290mg - worn diaflat 160
290mg - worn atoma 400
410mg - glass 220
270mg - glass 500
240mg - shapton pro 1k
190mg - glass 1k
240mg - naniwa pro 800
130mg - naniwa pro 2k
110mg - glass 2k
120mg - shapton pro 2k
70mg - glass 3k
40mg - glass 4k
10mg at most - shapton pro 12k

 

[inferno]

I have the SP220 (I think), and I really like it. It is pretty muddy though, if that's not your bag.

I've not used the SG220, but I think @inferno has done some proper side by side comparisons so may be able to offer some thoughts too...

indeed i have.

the glass is about 50% faster in action than the pro. (in general that is)
the pro is twice as thick from the factory. 7-8mm vs 15-16mm
problem with the pro is that when it gets to like 3-4mm it will crack in 2. so you have to glue it to something solid.
like another 220 pro

when its all said and done both of these stones will have abraded the same amount of material. but the pro is slower.

------------------

basically i think the glass stones use a more aggressive shaped abrasive. the actual grit. and the binder is different.
they feel very similar though.

basically both the pro and glass does the same thing and they cost the same over time vs grams of steel abraded. they just do it in slightly different ways.

------------------

the real question that people should be asking is: what other coarse stone do i need to complement my shapton C.

and that answer is the sigma 240 green silicon carbide (or most likely any 200-250 green siicon carbide, like king/ice bear) i think all of these are the same and made in the same factory. dont know for sure though.

-------------------

when do you want to sigma insted of the shaptons??
well, basically when the shapton feel like they are too slow. you use the sigma.
and vice versa.

for me this usually means:
clad blades = fastest with shaptons.
hard monos, like o1 at 63hrc = fastest with sigma.
i dont know whay it works like this but it does. and its a big difference. so you probably need both.

with the sigma you need to coat it all over except the sharpening surface since it doesn't hold water for even 2 seconds. i spray painted mine in yellow

 

[ModRQC]

indeed i have.

the glass is about 50% faster in action than the pro. (in general that is)
the pro is twice as thick from the factory. 7-8mm vs 15-16mm
problem with the pro is that when it gets to like 3-4mm it will crack in 2. so you have to glue it to something solid.
like another 220 pro

when its all said and done both of these stones will have abraded the same amount of material. but the pro is slower.

------------------

basically i think the glass stones use a more aggressive shaped abrasive. the actual grit. and the binder is different.
they feel very similar though.

basically both the pro and glass does the same thing and they cost the same over time vs grams of steel abraded. they just do it in slightly different ways.

------------------

the real question that people should be asking is: what other coarse stone do i need to complement my shapton C.

and that answer is the sigma 240 green silicon carbide (or most likely any 200-250 green siicon carbide, like king/ice bear) i think all of these are the same and made in the same factory. dont know for sure though.

-------------------

when do you want to sigma insted of the shaptons??
well, basically when the shapton feel like they are too slow. you use the sigma.
and vice versa.

for me this usually means:
clad blades = fastest with shaptons.
hard monos, like o1 at 63hrc = fastest with sigma.
i dont know whay it works like this but it does. and its a big difference. so you probably need both.

with the sigma you need to coat it all over except the sharpening surface since it doesn't hold water for even 2 seconds. i spray painted mine in yellow

Totally agree with the Sigma: sealing it is a must.

It's funny but I always thought that the Sigma or comparably priced green silicon carbide wouldn't be the same than the cheaper versions using that abrasive. I mean, anyone can up the price when they can if they can, but this sort of things, it becomes known pretty fast amongst those who really use these things regularly and knowingly - which is after all the greatest part of the sales these companies will do. So IDK but maaaan if the cheapest King is the same than the Sigma, way to go buying a thicker stone for a third of the price!

 

[inferno]

Meanwhile I've gotten great service from the Nanohone 200. It's a bit of a disputed stone, so with experience of the Sigma 240, as well as a couple experiences with the 200 grits range (Pride 220, Pink Brick) and a few varied muddier soakers to cleaner S&G around the 300-400 mark:

For speed with anything you'll throw at it, I've not known better than a Sigma. Scratch pattern will have strays of course but it's very well behaved for speed and wide effeciency. Dishes quite fast, mud unforgivingly effective - not always a con depending on the geometry you're trying to preserve/enhance AND thin, but it also means a wide margin of imprecision and additional work in polishing that isn't going to be clearly levied by the Sigma base speed.

Nanohone's effective speed is not like the Sigma, but it's nothing like 300-400 range neither. It'll be less noticeable perhaps if working on a wide range of steels and geometries because it's in my sense a much more chosey stone, and if I had to generalize, I'd just say it's either not worth spending it, either ineffective spending it, towards grinding cheaper knives, or doing any work of any kind on these. The Sigma was not particularly more... "adapted" to it if you will but it could and would do anything with the expected effectiveness. However most of us deal with rather fancier knives when spending twice the average prices of coarse stones, so I guess it sort of goes with the territory in a logical way. But I do not recommend the Nanohone for an all around at all. What I'd recommend it for is a very quiet scratch pattern with a nice haze already, good speeds, and as precise and tidy as you could wish for in that grit range.

From the various reports about the Debado, I sort of would expect it to be faster than the Sigma, feelingbetter than both Sigma and Nanohone, and be rather tidier than muddy stones, possibly on par with the Nanohone except some more pain with deeper scratches. Which would not be SO much pain compared to some coarse alternatives. And if the Debado 180 is just about what I suppose it'd be, then yeah I totally want to get one.

Last but not least, both Sigma and Nanohone can be effectively dealt with using an Atoma 140. That's perhaps something I wouldn't be entirely sure to expect from the Debado. I admit, again, that because it dishes more, and because it is coarser and releasing abrasives like a maniac, the Sigma pushes the Atoma to its limits much more than the Nanohone ever will. So IF the Debado 180 is just like the Sigma on that matter and no worse, then again, I really have to try one.

My curosity is high with the Debado, and one of my favorite vendors actually has a nice price for it.

Edit... but I've just sold my Sukenari HAP to a relative, and really for the steels in my array now, I don't need anything I don't already have. However being with a relative, the HAP is bound to come back to me, and it needs to be a rigorously continued geometry maintenance at every sharpening, so... it's tempting to try the Debado and have it at hand.

imo. people need to realize that grinding hard monos is a lot different to grinding clad knives where the cladding is basically soft as mild steel. stainless or not.

and the stones that are good for monos will not be as good on clad and vice versa. so you need 2 stones here. and its a night and day difference here in speed. trust me.

i make my own knives out of 15n20 and 80crv2, and sometimes out of o1, at max hardness. the shaptons sucks for these.

but all my bought blades are clad. ss or mild steel or iron. and then the shaptons are very fast. maybe 2-4x as fast as the sigma silicon carbide, depending on the cladding type.


different horses for different courses!

 

[ModRQC]

imo. people need to realize that grinding hard monos is a lot different to grinding clad knives where the cladding is basically soft as mild steel. stainless or not.

and the stones that are good for monos will not be as good on clad and vice versa. so you need 2 stones here. and its a night and day difference here in speed. trust me.

i make my own knives out of 15n20 and 80crv2, and sometimes out of o1, at max hardness. the shaptons sucks for these.

but all my bought blades are clad. ss or mild steel or iron. and then the shaptons are very fast. maybe 2-4x as fast as the sigma silicon carbide, depending on the cladding type.


different horses for different courses!

In my experience the Sigma eats cladding very fast, but wouldn’t level the same kind of speed with mono 52100 or AEB-L - both around the 62RC mark. Not to just say the contrary but it’s been my experience.

 

[inferno]

Totally agree with the Sigma: sealing it is a must.

It's funny but I always thought that the Sigma or comparably priced green silicon carbide wouldn't be the same than the cheaper versions using that abrasive. I mean, anyone can up the price when they can if they can, but this sort of things, it becomes known pretty fast amongst those who really use these things regularly and knowingly - which is after all the greatest part of the sales these companies will do. So IDK but maaaan if the cheapest King is the same than the Sigma, way to go buying a thicker stone for a third of the price!

yeah as i said, i dont know if the kings are the exact same quality as the sigmas. but im like 97% sure they are.
i'm fairly certain there is only one plant making this material in japan. and all of them are either 220 or 240 grit. (and the 220 and 240 are probably the same anyway). they are also all just fuzed, no binder or nothing. you press some powder to a brick and you run it in a oven for 5h or so. these are also the cheapest stones.

the thing with green SiC is that its the purest type from the process. so i dont know how the quality of the powder will change between 2 different green SiC powders. there is probably 0 difference here. imo. sigma is a smaller maker so they charge more. i bought the sigma since i knew it would not be crap.

 

[inferno]

In my experience the Sigma eats cladding very fast, but wouldn’t level the same kind of speed with mono 52100 or AEB-L - both around the 62RC mark. Not to just say the contrary but it’s been my experience.

might be so but in my experience the sigma is better for monos than the shaptons, and then the opposite.

these days, for the heavy lifting of monos i use my "parkside" floor sander with mirka belts. since its 10 times faster than any stone. and 100 times louder.
i use this outside. a job takes 2 minutes instead of 2 hours

 

[ModRQC]

might be so but in my experience the sigma is better for monos than the shaptons, and then the opposite.

these days, for the heavy lifting of monos i use my "parkside" floor sander with mirka belts. since its 10 times faster than any stone. and 100 times louder.
i use this outside. a job takes 2 minutes instead of 2 hours

Where's your angle grinder at?

 

[inferno]

i had a hss blade i needed to get down to "95% done" from like 70% and i had worked on it for many hours at work. with files, sand paper and stones. and we also have 30m/s belt grinder there. with coarse cubitron belts. and you really cant go that far down with the industrial belt grinder. because you will fry the edge. it overheats in like 0,037 seconds at those belt speeds. when its gets thin, right. and since this is ultra serious powder hss its basically non-grindable after hardening. at all.

and then i took the blade home. lets say it was 80% done now. put it on the floor sander, 60 grit used mirka belt. and it was done in less than 1 minute...
dafuq!!!

dont underestimate machines imo. sometimes even the shittiest machine is the right machine. or the better machine.

(and to be honest. having access to a 30m/s belt grinder i feel i get more done with a 700w angle grinder with solid cubitron disc, maybe 3x as fast, for the heavy lifting)

 

[inferno]

Where's your angle grinder at?

its always close by.... i dont leave home without it.

 

[inferno]

Where's your angle grinder at?

funny you should say that. but to be honest if you are thinning out some cladding this can be a very viable alternative!
i mean you are working away from the edge. i would never use an angle grinder close to a hardened edge. but if you can keep the edge cool you can do whatever you fukking want 1cm away from it imo. its as easy as that.

i have worked with angle grinders for the last 15 years or so daily. maybe only 1 minute every day. and sometimes 8h.
sometimes joke with my coworkers that i can do open hearth surgery with an angle grinder.
and they never protest, because they know god damn well i actually can do this. well almost

these are very fast and efficient tools.

protip: get cubitron flapdiscs and solid discs. that will save you about 700% time or so compared to the cheap **** discs.
and only cost you twice as much.

-----------

I think i'm gonna get a variable speed angle grinder next. a blue bosch one. but the smallest one is 900w. i like the 700w ones. since they have the thinnest grips (this matters) still think i'm gonna get one.

i have a variable speed drilling machine right now, 0-3000rpm, that i can mount angle grinder disc in. since i made a mount to do just that. so i can grind straight razors with angle grinder cubitron discs. yeah i dont like spending weeks on ****. want it to get done straight away. that just how i work i guess.

 

[inferno]

Totally agree with the Sigma: sealing it is a must.

It's funny but I always thought that the Sigma or comparably priced green silicon carbide wouldn't be the same than the cheaper versions using that abrasive. I mean, anyone can up the price when they can if they can, but this sort of things, it becomes known pretty fast amongst those who really use these things regularly and knowingly - which is after all the greatest part of the sales these companies will do. So IDK but maaaan if the cheapest King is the same than the Sigma, way to go buying a thicker stone for a third of the price!

no one has done a head to head with the king and the sigma. not even me. sure the king is ony 40-50bux but i still dont give a F really. and i guess no one else does either.

 

[inferno]

they have a saying inchina: you hammer the nail that stands proud.
its a like a state motto. i guess it promotes innovation somehow.

i also have one, my own variant on this:
if your dick is longer than your angle grinder, get a bigger angle grinder.

 

[inferno]

yeah on a kinda serious note. for once. i suggest new users to get both the shapton pro 220 and the sigma green 240. since they do completely different things well.