Sharpening advice needed for high carbon cleavers

[JWK1]

Before I keep doing the same thing over and over again, it occurred to me I need some advice. I have read as many posts as I can, looked up as many sharpening videos as I can take. A lot of conflicting advice and techniques. Some of the links I got here from my search no longer exist.

I've been on a cleaver kick for the past year or so and it doesn't seem to be waning. I keep buying older chinese high carbon cleavers off the bay. I have King stones in 300, 800, and 1200. All of these cleavers need a complete bevel set and sharpening. I've tried various methods. I'll try to describe what I'm doing now and take advice on how to improve and/or correct it.

Of course I start with the 300 stone. Since the bevel isn't acute enough to begin with, I usually go back and forth between sides in fairly equal amounts, favoring the right side a bit more since I'm shooting for just a bit of asymmetry. When I think I'm close, I stay on the right side until I raise a burr. Then I go to the other side a try to remove it. Here's where I need some help.

Should I remove the burr with the 300, or go to the 800?
What type of stroke should I use to remove the burr (here is where I run into a lot of conflicting info)?
Should I raise another burr before moving onto the 1200?

I think we all pretty much know this is softer high carbon with R hardness around the 58 neighborhood. This might change methods a bit from harder japanese steel. I don't know. Please tell me if this is true, or whether the methods and techniques should remain the same for both. My hardest steel right now is a Masahiro VC 240 gyuto. It's "OK" sharp, but I don't want to mess with my best knife until I'm sure I'm doing things right. I'll perfect my techniques on my old Ho Ching Kee Lee stuff. It's really important for me to know if my deburring method should be the same for my Masahiro or not.

Another very important question I have regarding my results is why my edges always feel much sharper on one side of the blade. Testing a bit with my thumb, it always feels much more sharp on the right side (as you're looking down from spine). Is this just the nature of an asymmetric edge, or am I doing something wrong?

Once I get an edge to where I really want it, should I maintain the edge with the 1200 at the appropriate time, or should I always go back to the 800, then 1200?

With this type of steel, should I stick with the 1200 as my finest grit, or would there be any advantage to getting something higher? If so, what would you recommend? What about the Masahiro? What would be the highest grit stone you would use? The Masahiro I think is reported to be around R60 - R61 I believe.

I've really had a lot of fun with this, and have never had sharper knives to use. As much as it's mildly irritating at times dealing with low edge retention, it's a gas to give it a few strokes on the ceramic stick and have it come right back. However, with my Masahiro I'm sticking with stones only, so I want to do things right.

If anyone could give some links that I obviously haven't found, that would be great also. Thanks for any help and advice.

 

[Rangen]

Before I keep doing the same thing over and over again, it occurred to me I need some advice. I have read as many posts as I can, looked up as many sharpening videos as I can take. A lot of conflicting advice and techniques. Some of the links I got here from my search no longer exist.

I've been on a cleaver kick for the past year or so and it doesn't seem to be waning. I keep buying older chinese high carbon cleavers off the bay. I have King stones in 300, 800, and 1200. All of these cleavers need a complete bevel set and sharpening. I've tried various methods. I'll try to describe what I'm doing now and take advice on how to improve and/or correct it.

Of course I start with the 300 stone. Since the bevel isn't acute enough to begin with, I usually go back and forth between sides in fairly equal amounts, favoring the right side a bit more since I'm shooting for just a bit of asymmetry. When I think I'm close, I stay on the right side until I raise a burr. Then I go to the other side a try to remove it. Here's where I need some help.

Should I remove the burr with the 300, or go to the 800?
What type of stroke should I use to remove the burr (here is where I run into a lot of conflicting info)?
Should I raise another burr before moving onto the 1200?

I think we all pretty much know this is softer high carbon with R hardness around the 58 neighborhood. This might change methods a bit from harder japanese steel. I don't know. Please tell me if this is true, or whether the methods and techniques should remain the same for both. My hardest steel right now is a Masahiro VC 240 gyuto. It's "OK" sharp, but I don't want to mess with my best knife until I'm sure I'm doing things right. I'll perfect my techniques on my old Ho Ching Kee Lee stuff. It's really important for me to know if my deburring method should be the same for my Masahiro or not.

Another very important question I have regarding my results is why my edges always feel much sharper on one side of the blade. Testing a bit with my thumb, it always feels much more sharp on the right side (as you're looking down from spine). Is this just the nature of an asymmetric edge, or am I doing something wrong?

Once I get an edge to where I really want it, should I maintain the edge with the 1200 at the appropriate time, or should I always go back to the 800, then 1200?

With this type of steel, should I stick with the 1200 as my finest grit, or would there be any advantage to getting something higher? If so, what would you recommend? What about the Masahiro? What would be the highest grit stone you would use? The Masahiro I think is reported to be around R60 - R61 I believe.

I've really had a lot of fun with this, and have never had sharper knives to use. As much as it's mildly irritating at times dealing with low edge retention, it's a gas to give it a few strokes on the ceramic stick and have it come right back. However, with my Masahiro I'm sticking with stones only, so I want to do things right.

If anyone could give some links that I obviously haven't found, that would be great also. Thanks for any help and advice.

Sharpening is very individual, so there are a lot of opinions out there. But since I have a bunch of cleavers, I love cleavers, and I sharpen my cleavers a lot, I figure I'll give my process.

With a brand-new cleaver, I'll start with a Shapton Glass 1000 if the apex is basically formed, and the Shapton Glass 500 if there seems to be more distance to cover. Pressure depends entirely on how far from the goal the edge and bevels are, and always diminishes as I get closer to the goal.

Once I have an even burr all the way along one side, using back-and-forth strokes, then I switch to the other side to get the same. Then I switch back, but just 2-3 strokes. Did that give me an evenly-sized burr on the other side? Good, switch sides, do the same check.

Now it's all edge leading passes. Usually I start with 5, switch sides, 5, and reduce once things feel good. Once I'm down to one edge-leading stroke on each side, I continue until I can feel no burr on either side, the edge feels sharp to my finger, and I can start a clean cut into a paper towel anywhere along the edge.

Chances are this is all that the cleaver needs or can use, for the kind of steel you describe.

If it does not seem that way to you, then the answer is almost certainly that you still have a burr. I suggest practicing feeling for a burr on both sides until you can find even small burrs. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should take practice, but it does. When learning, it can really help to try different digits and find which ones are your most sensitive burr-detectors.

As for touch-ups, it depends on your evaluation of the edge. Typically I will use something like an Aizu or BBW or Washita or or soft ark Shapton Glass 4000, stones I would have used to finish on steel that is not unknown 58 hardness steel, even if I never went farther than the SG 1000 in the initial sharpening. They'll straighten and smooth things out, and leave a bit of a bite, while not making as much burr as going back to the 1000 would. Of course sometimes you do have to go back to coarser stones, but usually I let the knife tell me it needs that before jumping straight there.

 

[kpham12]

If you’re getting old cleavers off eBay, they probably need some thinning too. I just did this old Ho Ching Lee Kee, you can see how high the thinning marks go on the cleaver.



Here is a good cleaver sharpening video showing how many Japanese/Chinese chefs thin and sharpen their cleavers at the same time to keep them performing well.


I also have a Masahiro VC gyuto, you can deburr the same way you do with an old cleaver, edge leading or lateral strokes are ideal for deburring, but the key is always pressure control. For deburring, use as light pressure as you can. Like feather light, just enough to maintain contact between the edge and the stone. Also, you don’t “need” anything higher than the King 1200, but it is easier to completely get rid of the burr on higher grit stones. Like @Rangen says, something like a Soft Arkansas stone is good for touch-ups. It can be used in place of a honing rod, works great for simple carbons and can be used after the King 1200 to completely get rid of the burr and clean the edge.

 

[JWK1]

Rangen and kpham12, that is some fantastic help! Exactly the kind of stuff I needed to correct and improve. It sounds like it would be beneficial to get a higher grit stone. I'm confused about the soft Arkansas. When I look it up, a couple of sources state it's equivalent to somewhere around 800 grit. This doesn't sound like what you're both describing. I don't know much about stones.

 

[Rangen]

Rangen and kpham12, that is some fantastic help! Exactly the kind of stuff I needed to correct and improve. It sounds like it would be beneficial to get a higher grit stone. I'm confused about the soft Arkansas. When I look it up, a couple of sources state it's equivalent to somewhere around 800 grit. This doesn't sound like what you're both describing. I don't know much about stones.

I never thought much about the grit rating of soft Arks. I just know that the Dan's soft Ark I got does that toothy finish/touch-up job really well out of the box.

800 grit on a friable-bond stone like a King or Shapton is a very different proposition from 800 grit on a stone that never sheds anything while sharpening. Heck, the old-timey razor hones are basically coarse stones with a really smooth surface finish. They don't work well compared to modern stones, but it's amazing that they work at all.

With novaculite, surface preparation has a major effect. I haven't played with that on my soft Ark, but I have been messing with a Washita that, when it arrived, barely cut at all. Grinding the service for a few minutes with 80 grit SiC powder turned it into a great toothy knife finisher.

It's true that higher-grit stones make great deburring stones. I am not saying you need any of these, not by a long shot, I have them because using them makes me happy, but just for reference, these are my favorite deburring stones, in no particular order:

Leading edge strokes:

Shapton Glass 30K
Shapton Glass 16K
Translucent Ark conditioned with 80 grit SiC

Trailing edge strop-style strokes:

NSK diamond 10K (the hardest variant)
Nanohone resin-bonded diamond, 1 micron

I do try to get rid of all burrs on the stones I'm using to sharpen. I'd say I succeed 70-80% of the time (the percentage has increased over time), but for the rest, I'll pull out one of these, or basswood pasted with 2 micron diamond, or a leather strop, kangaroo preferred.

 

[Benuser]

Just a remark about the Masahiro VC: it benefits from much finer stones. 1.2k is a bit coarse, and using it for touching-up involves in the long run a waste of steel. My full sharpening often ends at 4k, but a few light strokes of 8k might be added. No full polishing. Take for touching-up as fine as you have, and go to the next coarser stone if you don't get a smooth result within a few strokes. By the way: if one side feels sharper than the other it may indeed be about the different sharpening angles. More often though it's a burr. Yes, deburring after every stone is useful. Burr remnants of a coarse stone will hinder building a fine edge. A new burr will appear very quickly on a finer stone, as the bevels have met with the previous stone. Otherwise, you're not reaching the very edge and remain behind it. That said, a burr doesn't guarantee that the bevels really meet. A sharpie and a loupe will show you that the burr formation may — depending on the steel — start before the very edge has been reached.

 

[Nemo]

I'm not convinced that you have removed your burr. This would be the first thing I would eliminate.

I see burr management in several stages:

1) Burr formation, using firm pressure against the stone on the coarsest stone in your progression (this could be a fine stone if just touching up).
2) Burr reduction, using gradually lighter pressure on your coarsest stone. Check the knifeplanet.net sharpening school for a great explanation of this (video number 3 IIRC). You will likely see or feel bits of burr break off in this process.
3) Further burr reduction with a series (2-10 per side, depending on the steel) of feather light edge leading strokes.
4) Burr removal with a longitudinal stroke along the edge.
5) Any finer stones are polished with light pressure only. Ideally this would not raise a burr but in practice, I usually raise a fine burr. Then repeat stages 4-5 on each finer stone.
6) I then gently drag the edge through cork or hard felt.
7) [Optipnal] I then repeat the last 2 stages (light pressure on the last 2 stones or the last 2 pressure levels if I'm just touching up on a fine stone), then repeat stage 4 and 6. I got this technique from @Dave Martell and it lifted my edges to a new level of sharpness.

 

[natto]

Of course I start with the 300 stone. Since the bevel isn't acute enough to begin with, I usually go back and forth between sides in fairly equal amounts, favoring the right side a bit more since I'm shooting for just a bit of asymmetry. When I think I'm close, I stay on the right side until I raise a burr. Then I go to the other side a try to remove it. Here's where I need some help.

Grinding to a burr on one side only? That might leave troubles on the other side.

 

[Ruso]

do you use low or high angles on the cleavers, especially on thin behind the edge ones like CCK?

 

[JWK1]

Grinding to a burr on one side only? That might leave troubles on the other side.

When I'm setting a new bezel, I try to grind equally on both sides until I get I think I'm very close to reaching the apex. I don't really have a developed system or technique for this. Just kind of winging it with common sense, but I do feel there must be a defined method.

do you use low or high angles on the cleavers, especially on thin behind the edge ones like CCK?

High or low? I could take some measurements and probably come close to the angle of the new bevel I'm setting. Is that what you mean? I'm sure it's somewhere between 15 and 20 degrees, and I think probably closer to 15. I'll check into that today. I'm going to work on one of my cleavers and try out some of these techniques.

 

[JWK1]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice and info. I worked on my cheap Shibazi and got it much sharper. I worked on a more acute bevel with the 300 stone for a good hour or so. Using a sharpie, I got very close to the apex, then switched to the 800 and sharpened at my usual angle, which is the spine being almost a thumb width above the stone. I raised a burr and followed the instructions above. I still did not reach real success, IMO. I thought I was done and was cleaning off the little bit of sharpie left over with some acetone and a paper napkin. As I went along one side, I could tell the napkin was catching just a little bit, so I didn't fully remove the burr. I was really tired and had to get dinner on, so I very gently knocked it off with my ceramic stick, then went to the suede side of a very wide leather guitar strap I've had for the past 50 years.

The sharpest knife I've ever used, and I didn't even do it right. Done right, would it be any sharper? I hope I can find that out. I'm glad I have the Shibazi to practice on. It's definitely not my forever cleaver. I also have a Dexter carbon cleaver I got off the bay that's had the profile ruined with bad sharpening. Hump in the middle, ground down too much at the back end. Good stuff to practice on. I'll work on that one next and see if I can get this burr thing down.

I'll see about picking up a soft Arkansas for the cleavers.

Just a remark about the Masahiro VC: it benefits from much finer stones. 1.2k is a bit coarse, and using it for touching-up involves in the long run a waste of steel. My full sharpening often ends at 4k, but a few light strokes of 8k might be added. No full polishing. Take for touching-up as fine as you have, and go to the next coarser stone if you don't get a smooth result within a few strokes. By the way: if one side feels sharper than the other it may indeed be about the different sharpening angles. More often though it's a burr. Yes, deburring after every stone is useful. Burr remnants of a coarse stone will hinder building a fine edge. A new burr will appear very quickly on a finer stone, as the bevels have met with the previous stone. Otherwise, you're not reaching the very edge and remain behind it. That said, a burr doesn't guarantee that the bevels really meet. A sharpie and a loupe will show you that the burr formation may — depending on the steel — start before the very edge has been reached.

Can you recommend a modestly priced stone that would be good to follow the 1200 and/or for touching-up?

 

[Benuser]

A few suggestions: the Suehiro Ouka, a true 3k and a soaker if that matters. A great stone and shouldn't cost too much. More forgiving than the excellent splash-and-go Shapton Glass 4k who requires a lot of precision, but is great if you insist on straight bevels, instead of slightly convexed ones as I prefer. Another were the Belgian Blue, but I have no idea what they cost abroad. You may easily learn finishing in sections with a smaller piece. All your sharpening will greatly benefit from it. Others may suggest Arkansas. Depending on where you live there are much more options I'm not aware of.

 

[Rangen]

Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice and info. I worked on my cheap Shibazi and got it much sharper. I worked on a more acute bevel with the 300 stone for a good hour or so. Using a sharpie, I got very close to the apex, then switched to the 800 and sharpened at my usual angle, which is the spine being almost a thumb width above the stone.

I'd recommend going all the way to the apex with your 300, and then gently clean up the edge as best you can on the 300, with edge-leading strokes, alternating sides, before proceeding to the 800. No reason to stop short.

 

[Benuser]

I'd recommend going all the way to the apex with your 300, and then gently clean up the edge as best you can on the 300, with edge-leading strokes, alternating sides, before proceeding to the 800. No reason to stop short.

Absolutely. Don't be surprised if sharpening and deburring with the first stone takes some 3/4 of the entire process, but it is well worth. No way you can later correct what went wrong or was missed in this early stage.

 

[JWK1]

Absolutely. Don't be surprised if sharpening and deburring with the first stone takes some 3/4 of the entire process, but it is well worth. No way you can later correct what went wrong or was missed in this early stage.

The reason I didn't go all the way to the apex is because I thought the new bevel I was setting could be too acute for that soft steel. That Shibazi isn't actually thin behind the edge, so the idea was to knock that shoulder way back, make it easier to sharpen the cutting bezel, and then work on some thinning after I get the knife satisfactorily sharp.

What angle would be recommended for this type of steel? I promised to take some measurements, but I got tied up with sharpening and dinner again. I'll focus on getting the recommended angle and won't mess with any more sharpening until I know where to hold the blade to get it.

 

[Heckel7302]

The reason I didn't go all the way to the apex is because I thought the new bevel I was setting could be too acute for that soft steel. That Shibazi isn't actually thin behind the edge, so the idea was to knock that shoulder way back, make it easier to sharpen the cutting bezel, and then work on some thinning after I get the knife satisfactorily sharp.

What angle would be recommended for this type of steel? I promised to take some measurements, but I got tied up with sharpening and dinner again. I'll focus on getting the recommended angle and won't mess with any more sharpening until I know where to hold the blade to get it.

I'd do 15 degrees per side and see how it does. You can always go higher if it doesn't fare well. It's much easier to start low and go higher than the other way around.

 

[Benuser]

The reason I didn't go all the way to the apex is because I thought the new bevel I was setting could be too acute for that soft steel. That Shibazi isn't actually thin behind the edge, so the idea was to knock that shoulder way back, make it easier to sharpen the cutting bezel, and then work on some thinning after I get the knife satisfactorily sharp.

I would perform the thinning before the sharpening. I want the bevels to flush with the faces. Anyway, if you do it the other way around expect to have to touch-up the very edge.

 

[Wagnum]

I'll include how I sharpen my mono cleavers for contrast. This would be if the knife was really dull

Form a burr on a coarse stone (I'd say use the 800 but if you need to the 300 is fine)

Weaken burr by decreasing pressure and alternating sides every few strokes

Aggressively strop to weaken burr further

Cut into some wood to tear the burr off (I'm sure this will make some people cringe here)

Back to the coarse stone for a few light strokes even out the now raggedy apex but don't form a burr

Some light passes on a medium grit stone to polish the edge but again don't form a burr

It's quick and dirty but for me the steel on most cheap cleavers doesn't warrant spending too much time on being as soft as it is. I also tend to hone my cleavers in between sharpening so I see no point in having a super clean apex