Shotguns

[Marko Tsourkan]

It seems like having a firearm for home defense and then having it locked up with the ammo in another room locked up just doesn't make sense to me but then again having a loaded accessible firearm in the house with kids isn't so smart either. With all the gun slinging folks in this country I'd have thought that there'd be a ton of solutions to this problem but it doesn't appear so. The biometric safe is pretty close to a good enough solution though.

Also a bat, cleaver, lamb splitter, 40 chef's knives, a tomahawk, and some hammers will work pretty well in a pinch too. I actually think a hammer is probably the best tool for close quarters bedroom combat there is just because you can't be called out for planning to injure your home invader with a simple hammer that everyone has laying around.

Dave, I have been reading this thread and musing silently.

And while I was doing that, you gathered my thoughts and put them in writing for me. I agree with you 100%. Never owned a gun and don't see a need for one for defense. If I ever do own one, it would be for range shooting (sport).

M

 

[joec]

Not all of us have children at home any more so no need to lock up the guns. Also in some case such as mine I deal with the general public all day long and one never knows who walks through the office door. Besides one doesn't want to show up to a gun fight with a club or knife, the results won't be pleasant to say the least. :2cents:

 

[Salty dog]

@ Marko; That is the conventional wisdom that I agree with.

For me:

I live above the business. (More of a target)
I do find myself in un-savory parts of town on occasion.
I lived in an un-savory part of town for ten years.
I have made a few people unhappy over the years. (Restaurant people tend to be "fringy")
I've been shot at on more than one occasion. It's a very uncomfortable feeling. Especially when un-armed.

 

[Chifunda]

No attempt to preach or proselytize, just a few of my thoughts on self protection and firearms:

I believe that I am responsible for my own safety and that of my family and loved ones. Despite many people's belief to the contrary, the police have NO duty to protect you. They are charged with the apprehension of the person or persons who murdered, raped, robbed, maimed or committed other various crimes against you, but they have no legal responsibility to prevent these bad things from happening. This is not my opinion; it is the ruling of the United States Supreme Court. From The New York Times: "WASHINGTON, June 27 [2005] - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm..."

There are bad people out there. Pick up any newspaper or tune in to the evening news and you'll find plenty of evidence that they exist. What are the odds that you or I will be confronted by a raving sociopath bent on doing us ill? Pretty damn small, but not zero. I don't believe that my recognizing the possibility, no matter how remote, that I may have to protect myself by the exercise of deadly force makes me a paranoid with a persecution complex. To paraphrase Ken Hackathorn, I don't expect my house to burn down, but I have a fire insurance policy. I don't really think I'm going to be involved in an automobile accident when I pull out of my driveway, but I invariably buckle my seat belt.

With these things in mind, I keep a loaded pistol in my home. It's in a GunVault, a safe that makes it immediately available to me but keeps it from those not familiar with it's safe and proper use. I have a concealed weapons permit and exercise my right to carry pretty much every time I leave the house. Do I expect to have to use it? Hell no! If I thought I was going some place I might have to shoot my way out of, I wouldn't go!!

I strongly believe that carrying a deadly weapon gives me a moral and ethical responsibility to be proficient in it's use. To that end, I have spent both time and money training with some of the best instructors in the country in the defensive use of the handgun. I go to my local gun club regularly and work on my marksmanship skills. If that day ever comes when I must protect myself or those around me, I must be capable, otherwise I am more of a liability than an asset.

I'm not trying convert anyone here. If you're not comfortable around firearms or just plain don't like them then you shouldn't own one. Even if you hate them, that's okay too. I might not agree with you and I might not understand your attitude, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends.

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

As far as I am concerned, the only people you have to worry about having firearms are criminals. They might not have a Kimber, but they will always have something just as lethal. No one ever got robbed by a knife or bat and said, "man, I am glad I didn't have a gun".

" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

 

[bikehunter]

Dave, I have been reading this thread and musing silently.
Never owned a gun and don't see a need for one for defense. If I ever do own one, it would be for range shooting (sport).

M

Nope. Ya' never need one... 'til ya' need one. Remember, when seconds count, a policeman is only minutes away.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Ha, minutes? In Milwaukee you've got a 50/50 shot that cops will even show up, no matter what the crime.... and let's not start on the county Sheriff's; they claimed to not have enough manpower when President Obama visited; obviously they'd be to busy for lowly little me.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I must have been lucky then.

I lived in several countries, two continents, cities mostly, some in not very nice neighborhoods. Traveled a lot, some countries where you have to be vigilant. Can't say I don't keep my eyes open when I am in some areas, but honestly, never felt I had a need for a gun and don't think having one would have made me feel any safer. Besides, in NYC you are standing a good chance to be shot by cops.

I guess if I lived on a farm, far away from everything, then maybe I would consider getting one.

Anyway, I don't begrudge anybody owning guns. It's just not my thing, same as I care less for tactical or hunting gear. All I care is kitchen knives, good food, good movies, good books, etc.

M

 

[bikehunter]

I must have been lucky then.

I lived in several countries, two continents, cities mostly, some in not very nice neighborhoods. Traveled a lot, some countries where you have to be vigilant. Can't say I don't keep my eyes open when I am in some areas, but honestly, never felt I had a need for a gun and don't think having one would have made me feel any safer. Besides, in NYC you are standing a good chance to be shot by cops.

I guess if I lived on a farm, far away from everything, then maybe I would consider getting one.

Anyway, I don't begrudge anybody owning guns. It's just not my thing, same as I care less for tactical or hunting gear. All I care is kitchen knives, good food, good movies, good books, etc.

M

I lived in several countries, two continents, cities mostly, some in not very nice neighborhoods. Traveled a lot, some countries where you have to be vigilant.

As I have, Marko. Just because you've been lucky doesn't mean it can't happen. As an ex cop, I have seen some pretty bizarre circumstances, in the very "nicest" neighborhoods. Cause.....ya' never know.

Anyway, I don't begrudge anybody owning guns. It's just not my thing, same as I care less for tactical or hunting gear. All I care is kitchen knives, good food, good movies, good books, etc.


Nor do I begrudge anybody for choosing not to own a gun. I care about good knives and food and movies and books, as well. Just remember...ya' never know. <g>

 

[Phip]

Wish I could remember my factoids better. If I recall correctly, for most of us (maybe Salty excluded), the likelihood of having to defend ourselves or home against violent intrusion is miniscule, and I think we're more likely to be hurt by our own gun in the home than we are from stranger danger. For me, home safety is all about not having a swimming pool! There's a kid dying in one of every 11,000 swimming pools each year, but fewer than one kid for every million guns--got that from Freconomics. Also, I'll cook or sharpen a knife while drinking, but I never touch a gun after any booze. After all, I think most firearm injuries are self inflicted.

 

[bikehunter]

There are always going to be stupid/careless people who hurt themselves or others. When you read the anti gun crowd talk, about all the people murdered with guns, they never give you statistics on swimming pool deaths. And, unfortunately, there are no statistics on thousands of people who never fired their gun, but scared away dangerous criminals with a simple threat.

 

[Michael Rader]

Forgot where I heard this but: "It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it."

I carry a spare tire and jack in my car.
I don't ever think I'll need it.
I don't think about it.
I don't drive over nails or broken glass.
I'm glad I have it.

-M

 

[Chifunda]

It would be interesting to see statistics comparing accidental injuries/deaths involving firearms to injuries/deaths caused by vehicular accidents where cell phone usage has been a contributing factor.

Just sayin':scratchhead:

 

[bikehunter]

It's already been shown that driving while talking on a cell phone, impairs the driver more than driving legally intoxicated. Interesting also to note, if I recall correctly, that more than half of the people killed in this country with firearms...are suicides. Shrug

 

[Chifunda]

It's already been shown that driving while talking on a cell phone, impairs the driver more than driving legally intoxicated.

So, do you suppose the people calling for a ban on the private ownership of firearms would be willing to give up talking on their cell phones while driving?

:noway:


I didn't think so.

 

[bikehunter]

Heh, the good thing is, considering the many jurisdictions which have already banned cell phones while driving.....they're shortly not going to have a choice. ;-) I'm usually more of a libertarian, anti government, anti authority....but as a cyclist (haven't driven anything with an engine in 10 years) and having been nearly run over by inattentive people on cell phones, at least a dozen times....I think it's the right thing to do.

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

Owning a gun is all about making a choice, just like anything in life. I'm trained on how to use it, which everyone should be. If you choose to not own a gun, more power to you, but be prepared for the possible consequences if that time comes. Ive lived in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East and can say that i've been in safe and seedy areas in all places. Wish I had a gun in quite a few European countries (the only time i've ever been jumped was in Holland, a so called easy going country). And i'm from Philly, one of the highest murder rates per capita in the world but have never been threatened. I personally think the suicide argument for not having guns are stupid, because if someone wants to kill themself they will find a way regardless of the method. Accidental deaths...some people like to skydive and mountain climb, i'm sure there are some deaths involved. Only one guarantee in life, you are going to die. I think guns present no more of a threat than walking your dog or driving to work in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Salty dog]

Still waiting for the scope but I had this one laying around.

 

[Bulldogbacchus]

I was in the custom rifle and best gun industry for years and this was the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. Consistently shot less than a half minute of angle, usually around a quarter minute, and once produced a group measuring .113" center to center. It would take down a bowling pin at 800 yards if I was having a good day.

The most amazing thing was that the impact of the cold clean bore shot was no different than the succeeding rounds. I've never seen a rifle before or since that would do this.

Damn. That's some serious shooting. Congrats on that.
Thunder Ranch is a fun place. My wife and I both enjoyed our time there.
Clint is a pretty impressive guy. "I'd use my handgun to fight my way to my rifle."
You gotta love that.

 

[Chifunda]

Damn. That's some serious shooting. Congrats on that.
Thunder Ranch is a fun place. My wife and I both enjoyed our time there.
Clint is a pretty impressive guy. "I'd use my handgun to fight my way to my rifle."
You gotta love that.

Thanks for the kind words.

Thunder Ranch was always on my short list of places to train but for some reason it never happened. I really envy you your time with Clint Smith...he certainly has a way with words. Not to mention a reputation as one of the finest firearms instructors in the country, of course. :notworthy:

I picked up a few quips from Larry Vickers in one of his pistol classes, but they're not really suitable for posting in a family oriented forum! :lol2:

 

[DeepCSweede]

Oh Man... we got us a regular KKF mil-it-ia going on here. So, getting back to shotguns:

Who makes the best semi-auto? I'm thinking of a) reliability/feeding b) ergonomics/controls c) at best cost.

-M

Michael,

My personal favorite semi auto is the Benelli (SBEII (3 1/2") or M2(3")). While not cheap, the inertia tech recoil suppression along with a great rubber butt plate really does keep ones shoulder intact after a day of shooting. I have done a couple of rounds of 5 stand and sporting clays and not had any issues. It has good balance, light enough to carry comfortably in the field. Very easy to use the action and the action is reliable. A semi-auto action does need more cleaning than an over/under or a pump action to keep it in good shape.

I've used a buddy of mine's Winchester Super X3 and hunted with him a lot and that is pretty decent one also. His action sticks a little bit occasionally, but it shoots well, it decently balanced and the price point is a little below Benelli's. Certain shells haven't been working well with this gun lately though.

Can't really speak on any others though, most of my upland associates use over / unders and occasionally a pump action.

 

[AFKitchenknivesguy]

BTW, I looked up Barrett's and drooled all over my keyboard. When I saw the prices, my mouth dried up.

 

[Duckfat]

Home Defense; Remington 870

Clays/Skeet; Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon

Grouse; Browning 20 Ga Ultralight

Pheasant; Any vintage SxS preferably with Damscus barrels and exposed hammers.

 

[Chifunda]

Home Defense; Remington 870

Clays/Skeet; Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon

Grouse; Browning 20 Ga Ultralight

Pheasant; Any vintage SxS preferably with Damscus barrels and exposed hammers.

Anyone who hunts ruffed grouse with a 20ga. is bragging! :biggrin:

 

[Michael Rader]

Thanks, DeepCSweede. Yup, that Benelli M2 is on my short list for a home-defender. (I don't even want them to hear the "chook"-"chook")

-M

 

[DeepCSweede]

Anyone who hunts ruffed grouse with a 20ga. is bragging! :biggrin:

Growing up my dad and grandpa would only hunt them with a .410 and always come home with birds - now that is bragging. :surrendar:

I actually prefer my Silver Pigeon II 20 guage for ruffed grouse, its lighter, better balanced and can swing on the bird faster. Needless to say it is easy to miss them with any size gun though, ruffed grouse are definitely one of the most challenging birds to hunt.

 

[DeepCSweede]

Growing up my dad and grandpa would only hunt them with a .410 and always come home with birds - now that is bragging. :surrendar:

I actually prefer my Silver Pigeon II 20 guage for ruffed grouse, its lighter, better balanced and can swing on the bird faster. Needless to say it is easy to miss them with any size gun though, ruffed grouse are definitely one of the most challenging birds to hunt.

Oh and may I add that I would eat fried ruffed grouse with grouse gravy over just about anything on earth. :hungry:

 

[Duckfat]

Hat tip to any one hunting Grouse with a .410. Now that's the epitome of sportsmanship. When I was a kid I had a friend that had a .410 SxS with exposed hammers and a CC receiver. What a beauty that was. We had the opportunity to fish the Gaspe in Quebec for Salmon several years back and the guides there would talk about canning grouse with venison to make a sort of regional pot pie. Never had it but it sounded great. Not sure if they are still up but there is a sporting Goods store that I did several recipes for in the past and they had a recipe page on their site. (Jays sporting Goods).
One recipe I did was for honey BBQ Grouse.

Dave

 

[Chifunda]

Growing up my dad and grandpa would only hunt them with a .410 and always come home with birds - now that is bragging. :surrendar:

I actually prefer my Silver Pigeon II 20 guage for ruffed grouse, its lighter, better balanced and can swing on the bird faster. Needless to say it is easy to miss them with any size gun though, ruffed grouse are definitely one of the most challenging birds to hunt.

I might just as well have a slingshot as a .410 for ruffs. Some people just have a gift though...:notworthy: I had a client who hunted mallards with a 28ga. (this was before steel shot). He said it was simple really...just shoot 'em in the head.:wow:

And I agree with you about grouse being fine eating. If there's a better game bird for the table, I've never tasted it. :hungry3:

 

[Dave Martell]

I'm speechless....

[video=youtube;n5HxwGnZryw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5HxwGnZryw[/video]