Soft vs Hard Grit Finishes

[Sabs]

As an owner of several Sabatier knives. I've heard many people say not to over sharpen them. Most softer steels I've heard the same comments to not over sharpen.

What is the basis of that thought process?
Why is it always refered to older knives vs newer knives?

I usually don't sharpen past 2k on any of my knives if I use them for a high volume prep jobs because I'm most likely going to have to use a honing rod during prep. Not because they don't get sharper because the absolutely do at higher grits. My normal day I cut 50 pounds of tomatoes into a small dice for pico de Gallo. If is use my my hap40 gyuto or my 1970's 4 start elephant it doesn't matter the hardness I will have to hone, strop, or ceramic rod sharpening at some point no matter what. I order grade 2 tomatoes because they are cheaper. They usually have tough skins. I do like the ultra high grit finishes when cutting the tomatoes but the first initial sharpness will disappear so much faster. I always sharpen to 10k on my butcher knives, they fly through meat at high grit finishes.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

As an owner of several Sabatier knives. I've heard many people say not to over sharpen them. Most softer steels I've heard the same comments to not over sharpen.

What is the basis of that thought process?
Why is it always refered to older knives vs newer knives?

I usually don't sharpen past 2k on any of my knives if I use them for a high volume prep jobs because I'm most likely going to have to use a honing rod during prep. Not because they don't get sharper because the absolutely do at higher grits. My normal day I cut 50 pounds of tomatoes into a small dice for pico de Gallo. If is use my my hap40 gyuto or my 1970's 4 start elephant it doesn't matter the hardness I will have to hone, strop, or ceramic rod sharpening at some point no matter what. I order grade 2 tomatoes because they are cheaper. They usually have tough skins. I do like the ultra high grit finishes when cutting the tomatoes but the first initial sharpness will disappear so much faster. I always sharpen to 10k on my butcher knives, they fly through meat at high grit finishes.

I think it's basically that the softer steels can't hold higher finishes for a reasonable amount of time and honing on ribbed rods makes extremely coarse finishes anyway. More or less exactly as you're describing in your experience.

 

[Vertigo]

My normal day I cut 50 pounds of tomatoes into a small dice for pico de Gallo. If is use my my hap40 gyuto or my 1970's 4 start elephant it doesn't matter the hardness I will have to hone, strop, or ceramic rod sharpening at some point no matter what.

This is a fringe case. I mean it's 50 pounds of tomatoes, it's gonna **** up anything

Which of the two do you have to hone, stop, or ceramic rod first? If it's the Sab (and it is), there is your answer. Apply this observation to the majority, who don't work at volume like you do, and "don't bother with high grits because they dull fast" becomes a rule of thumb.

 

[aporigine]

As an owner of several Sabatier knives. I've heard many people say not to over sharpen them. Most softer steels I've heard the same comments to not over sharpen.

What is the basis of that thought process?
Why is it always refered to older knives vs newer knives?

I usually don't sharpen past 2k on any of my knives if I use them for a high volume prep jobs because I'm most likely going to have to use a honing rod during prep. Not because they don't get sharper because the absolutely do at higher grits. My normal day I cut 50 pounds of tomatoes into a small dice for pico de Gallo. If is use my my hap40 gyuto or my 1970's 4 start elephant it doesn't matter the hardness I will have to hone, strop, or ceramic rod sharpening at some point no matter what. I order grade 2 tomatoes because they are cheaper. They usually have tough skins. I do like the ultra high grit finishes when cutting the tomatoes but the first initial sharpness will disappear so much faster. I always sharpen to 10k on my butcher knives, they fly through meat at high grit finishes.

ZDP-189 for you

 

[Sabs]

I think it's basically that the softer steels can't hold higher finishes for a reasonable amount of time and honing on ribbed rods makes extremely coarse finishes anyway. More or less exactly as you're describing in your experience.

I think it's basically that the softer steels can't hold higher finishes for a reasonable amount of time and honing on ribbed rods makes extremely coarse finishes anyway. More or less exactly as you're describing in your experience.

I can keep a high grit edge easy with the dick (micro). I just prefer for large prep a low grit. If it was at home I would always sharpen higher.

 

[Sabs]

This is a fringe case. I mean it's 50 pounds of tomatoes, it's gonna **** up anything

Which of the two do you have to hone, stop, or ceramic rod first? If it's the Sab (and it is), there is your answer. Apply this observation to the majority, who don't work at volume like you do, and "don't bother with high grits because they dull fast" becomes a rule of thumb.

That was just an example really. If I'm at home I always sharpen higher for cutting feel. I was just interest in where and who decided it was better not to (over sharpen).
Once any of my hard hard steels become dull I can never get them back to a workable sharpness unless I'm working them on a stone. I'll pick soft steel over the hard for work because of that. I can just hone on a Ulta smooth steel and it's almost back to where I first sharpened it.

 

[Sabs]

ZDP-189 for you

I had one from jck a little bit ago. For hard steels I love r2.

 

[aporigine]

I had one from jck a little bit ago. For hard steels I love r2.

R2 seems best of both worlds. Holds an almighty edge … feels good on the stones.

Though I’m not about to renounce my liking of AS.

 

[M1k3]

In my experience, a lower grit (~400-1k) has more "teeth" to cut tomato skins longer. Something stainless or semi-stainless definitely helps keep the acids from degrading the apex. And the last piece, carbides. The more you have, especially the Vanadium type, the longer the edge will last.

 

[Sabs]

R2 seems best of both worlds. Holds an almighty edge … feels good on the stones.

Though I’m not about to renounce my liking of AS.

I have a hiromoto as I can't wait to thin and see what's it's all about.

 

[Redwax]

As an owner of several Sabatier knives. I've heard many people say not to over sharpen them. Most softer steels I've heard the same comments to not over sharpen.

I think it's just one of those preference things and I find some people express their opinion a bit dogmatically.

I finish most of my knives on a 3K stone including soft stainless such as Wusthof's. I find that I like the balance of refined and toothy with that edge. I've tried 800 grit finish on softer steel and it's fine as well, but I prefer 3K. I haven't had any issues with edge longevity. I think going much higher than 3K will give you a super refined edge, but would lack the tooth to keep feeling sharp with things like tomatoes, but I'm speculating as I haven't tried other than with harder carbon steel.

 

[Benuser]

I think it's basically that the softer steels can't hold higher finishes for a reasonable amount of time and honing on ribbed rods makes extremely coarse finishes anyway. More or less exactly as you're describing in your experience.

True with soft stainless, not so with soft carbons. With vintage Sabs you may go as high you like. Some interesting stones are the Naniwa Junpaku 8k, or the Shapton Pro 12k. Both offer a similar degree of refinement, with some remarkable refined bite. The Sabs aren't very reactive and a high polish will make them even less prone to microcorrosion. If you want to maintain them with a rod, you may consider the Dickoron Polish. I find a piece of Belgian Blue just as convenient, but I'm a humble home user.

 

[cotedupy]

As an owner of several Sabatier knives. I've heard many people say not to over sharpen them. Most softer steels I've heard the same comments to not over sharpen.

What is the basis of that thought process?
Why is it always refered to older knives vs newer knives?

It'd be interesting to know the context of this. Did people mean - don't sharpen them to too high a grit? Or did they mean - don't use a rod / steel on them the entire time and never take them to stones? Cos you often see old Sabs that been 'over sharpened', but really they've been 'over steeled', which causes them get out of shape so the edge doesn't make contact with the board in the middle.

If it was the former though - I wouldn't really pay any attention. Sharpen your knives to whatever grit works for you, and sharpen them as often as you need to. As @Vertigo said; the amount of prep you're doing is an extreme case, so you're probably better placed than anyone to know what's best for your knives.

 

[Sabs]

It'd be interesting to know the context of this. Did people mean - don't sharpen them to too high a grit? Or did they mean - don't use a rod / steel on them the entire time and never take them to stones? Cos you often see old Sabs that been 'over sharpened', but really they've been 'over steeled', which causes them get out of shape so the edge doesn't make contact with the board in the middle.

If it was the former though - I wouldn't really pay any attention. Sharpen your knives to whatever grit works for you, and sharpen them as often as you need to. As @Vertigo said; the amount of prep you're doing is an extreme case, so you're probably better placed than anyone to know what's best for your knives.

Most videos or comments I've heard people say refer a grit. So most like a stone. A good example is Bernal Cutlery. He has a couple videos on sabs.
I'm really interested in the what, why, and how of things. If there is a better or preferred way I'm into finding out why.
I've never heard of over steeled, that's interesting. Something I look forward to researching.

 

[Benuser]

Most videos or comments I've heard people say refer a grit. So most like a stone. A good example is Bernal Cutlery. He has a couple videos on sabs.
I'm really interested in the what, why, and how of things. If there is a better or preferred way I'm into finding out why.
I've never heard of over steeled, that's interesting. Something I look forward to researching.

IIRC, Bernal suggests not to go beyond 1k with carbon Sabs. Never understood.

 

[cotedupy]

Most videos or comments I've heard people say refer a grit. So most like a stone. A good example is Bernal Cutlery. He has a couple videos on sabs.
I'm really interested in the what, why, and how of things. If there is a better or preferred way I'm into finding out why.
I've never heard of over steeled, that's interesting. Something I look forward to researching.

Firstly just to emphasize; I think your lived experience of using and sharpening your knives is far, far more important than what anyone else says. And I say that as someone who sharpens a lot of other people's knives (as a job). I would never presume to tell someone there is an absolutely correct way to do something, and if they don't like it - they're wrong. I also think that there are some examples of 'received wisdom' that sometimes go unchecked, but that's a topic for another day!

Here are some of my own thoughts regarding the q. in hand...

There is a very good reason that people tend to like lower grit finishes for cutting tomatoes, and it's because more teeth increase the coefficient of friction on something that has a tough skin, but is quite soft so exerts less pressure upwards against your knife. Lower grit finishes have more 'teeth', and they last longer cos they're bigger. Try it out for yourself though and see what you reckon. I have never diced 50lb of tomatoes in one go, not even close.

I personally don't find the the HRC hardness of steels really has an impact on what 'grit' finish works best. Steel is more complicated than that, and I'm not a metallurgist. When I alter the grit I finish knives at it's not because of the steel, it's because of the application; high grits for yanagiba, low for deba, &c. &c.

I happen to own and use quite a lot of Sabs, new and old, carbon and stainless. And I need to sharpen a few of them later today. I'll try some different finishes, compare them, and report back with any interesting findings...

 

[azn_knives_4l]

True with soft stainless, not so with soft carbons. With vintage Sabs you may go as high you like. Some interesting stones are the Naniwa Junpaku 8k, or the Shapton Pro 12k. Both offer a similar degree of refinement, with some remarkable refined bite. The Sabs aren't very reactive and a high polish will make them even less prone to microcorrosion. If you want to maintain them with a rod, you may consider the Dickoron Polish. I find a piece of Belgian Blue just as convenient, but I'm a humble home user.

I'm not so sure about this. Toothiness correlates to longer lasting slicing on both carbon and stainless both in my own experience and the current literature on the topic. Ymmv.

Edit: Rather extreme corrosive nature of the tomatoes could tip the scales but I haven't tested. 50lbs of tomatoes is quite a lot and I haven't done anything like that with carbon knives. Have done with stainless when I was younger.

 

[cotedupy]

IIRC, Bernal suggests not to go beyond 1k with carbon Sabs. Never understood.

Yeah, I can’t understand that either. Not sure where they’re coming from there. I often quite like lower-mid grit finishes myself, but if someone else likes higher grit finishes then Sabs will take them quite happily.

I’ve also had good results finishing stainless Sabs at much higher grits than I know you would recommend. I don’t know if this has any bearing(?), but when I do higher finishes - it tends to be off natural stones. I don’t own or use many high grit sythns…

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Yeah, I can’t understand that either. Not sure where they’re coming from there. I often quite like lower-mid grit finishes myself, but if someone else likes higher grit finishes then Sabs will take them quite happily.

I’ve also had good results finishing stainless Sabs at much higher grits than I know you would recommend. I don’t know if this has any bearing(?), but when I do higher finishes - it tends to be off natural stones. I don’t own or use many high grit sythns…

I don't own any soft carbon but keep the finish lower with softer stainless to get to what I consider reasonable edge retention for whatever knife. I don't use steels at this point so that mixes it up quite a bit.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

I can keep a high grit edge easy with the dick (micro). I just prefer for large prep a low grit. If it was at home I would always sharpen higher.

Interesting. What's the reason for the preference specific to preparation cutting? Am assuming volume has something to do with that.

 

[bsfsu]

Soft steel+high grit finish=reduced time at optimal sharpness

Keep doing what you do with your knives, I think when you work at volume you get a better understanding of your knives and steels.
eg. When you chop a bunch of parsley (home cook size) you can keep cutting without a loss of precived sharpness. When you chop a kilo of parsley (proper size) your knife will be pretty blunt by half way through because of the high silica content
(22.68kg {50lb for those of the USA persuasion} of 2nd grade tomatoes would destroy any knives sharpness)

I usually don't sharpen past 2k on any of my knives if I use them for a high volume prep jobs because I'm most likely going to have to use a honing rod during prep

I think you also have a good point here as to the reason not to go too high with the grits.

As to why people prostrate themselves on the Altar of sharpness and propagate certain ideas? It's like all religion's, there are schisms. Example the great "Pocket knife" schism of 1645 when they started following "straight razor" sharpeners and fell out of line with the "kitchen knife" sharpeners. Or the "ECD" schism in the mid 90's where they split from the "Pocket Knifers" because of the use of fixed sharpening devices. Then you get all the "new age sharpeners" who cherry pick from various sharpening cannons....... and then proceed to misunderstand and mess up what they are doing.

Go with your experience and conscious bias.

 

[Sabs]

Interesting. What's the reason for the preference specific to preparation cutting? Am assuming volume has something to do with that.

Yeah volume is the reason. I can do an Ulta refined edge for work but the care on the cutting board can be rough when trying to beast mode through vegetables. When I make pico I do tomatoes and onions with my sabs and then I switch to my slicer for cilantro chiffonade. The Polish finish on the slicer doesn't bruise the cilantro and I can get it much finer.

 

[Redwax]

Yeah volume is the reason. I can do an Ulta refined edge for work but the care on the cutting board can be rough when trying to beast mode through vegetables. When I make pico I do tomatoes and onions with my sabs and then I switch to my slicer for cilantro chiffonade. The Polish finish on the slicer doesn't bruise the cilantro and I can get it much finer.

I think this is one of the many variables regarding edge holding. When I watch some people cutting on a board, it's interesting to see how techniques differ. Some people are quite aggressive, often from necessity for speed etc. while some people are quite finessed. It's not hard to damage your edge in a moment or two of inattention with some knives/steels.

 

[cotedupy]

Example the great "Pocket knife" schism of 1645 when they started following "straight razor" sharpeners and fell out of line with the "kitchen knife" sharpeners. Or the "EDC" schism in the mid 90's where they split from the "Pocket Knifers" because of the use of fixed sharpening devices. Then you get all the "new age sharpeners" who cherry pick from various sharpening canons...

Excellent. Bravo Sir!

 

[SwampDonkey]

I think it's just one of those preference things and I find some people express their opinion a bit dogmatically.

I finish most of my knives on a 3K stone including soft stainless such as Wusthof's. I find that I like the balance of refined and toothy with that edge. I've tried 800 grit finish on softer steel and it's fine as well, but I prefer 3K. I haven't had any issues with edge longevity. I think going much higher than 3K will give you a super refined edge, but would lack the tooth to keep feeling sharp with things like tomatoes, but I'm speculating as I haven't tried other than with harder carbon steel.

This matches my own experiences. I  want to finish everything on a coticule, and that's dumb sharp at first, but I've found the longest lasting edges from my own sharpening kit tend to be from the Chosera 3k for my stainless AEB-L/SG2/Ginsan/VG7/VG10. I only reference those as I see it more as a ~true edge retention test since they aren't suffering micro-corrosion like my beloved carbons, and they tend to be my tomato/pepper knives so I'm more keen on tooth.

I've been experimenting with manufacturing lasting tooth through combinations like Chosera 800, Shapton Glass 120, or DMT diamond plate followed by a BBW deburr. Also playing with a couple washitas too. I've had good success so far but it's too early to say anything that isn't more just ~vibes~ except that I'm shocked at how much I like the SG 120 > BBW for real crappy stainless paring knives and such that get abused.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

This matches my own experiences. I  want to finish everything on a coticule, and that's dumb sharp at first, but I've found the longest lasting edges from my own sharpening kit tend to be from the Chosera 3k for my stainless AEB-L/SG2/Ginsan/VG7/VG10. I only reference those as I see it more as a ~true edge retention test since they aren't suffering micro-corrosion like my beloved carbons, and they tend to be my tomato/pepper knives so I'm more keen on tooth.

I've been experimenting with manufacturing lasting tooth through combinations like Chosera 800, Shapton Glass 120, or DMT diamond plate followed by a BBW deburr. Also playing with a couple washitas too. I've had good success so far but it's too early to say anything that isn't more just ~vibes~ except that I'm shocked at how much I like the SG 120 > BBW for real crappy stainless paring knives and such that get abused.

Curious about this... Are you applying micro-bevels or nah?

 

[SwampDonkey]

Curious about this... Are you applying micro-bevels or nah?

Nah, my natural freehand angle is fairly low (maybe 11°?) and I just roll with it and focus on a good deburr.

I've never had issues with big edge failure so I haven't delved into microbevels yet.

 

[azn_knives_4l]

Nah, my natural freehand angle is fairly low (maybe 11°?) and I just roll with it and focus on a good deburr.

I've never had issues with big edge failure so I haven't delved into microbevels yet.

I'm similar as far as natural angles and just started experimenting with micros earlier this year. Thanks for the reply!

 

[aporigine]

Excellent. Bravo Sir!

Oddly, in the quest for knowledge, I googled pocket knife schism 1645.

Poop-a-rino.

Am I doing it wrong?

 

[M1k3]

This matches my own experiences. I  want to finish everything on a coticule, and that's dumb sharp at first, but I've found the longest lasting edges from my own sharpening kit tend to be from the Chosera 3k for my stainless AEB-L/SG2/Ginsan/VG7/VG10. I only reference those as I see it more as a ~true edge retention test since they aren't suffering micro-corrosion like my beloved carbons, and they tend to be my tomato/pepper knives so I'm more keen on tooth.

I've been experimenting with manufacturing lasting tooth through combinations like Chosera 800, Shapton Glass 120, or DMT diamond plate followed by a BBW deburr. Also playing with a couple washitas too. I've had good success so far but it's too early to say anything that isn't more just ~vibes~ except that I'm shocked at how much I like the SG 120 > BBW for real crappy stainless paring knives and such that get abused.

Freshly lapped SP 120 > SP 12k is a surprisingly good combination for me. Also did that with an Oouchi and it was nice.