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Terminology Shinogi vs wide bevel vs blade road?

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TheCaptain

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As we all know, I have no pride and would prefer to be corrected than continue with incorrect assumptions.

With that being said, the phrases wide bevel, shinogi, and "blade road" have been used in recent discussions and I'm not sure I'm truly clear on what they exactly mean.

An no, google was not my friend on this one. I prefer the much better explanations some of our learned members give.

I just thought a wide bevel knive had a slightly flatter grind half way down the blade to to near the edge, where it got thin (kinda the opposite of what Takeda is currently doing).

Shinogi is a different kind of grind though, right? There's something special about it that I can't quite figure out?

And what the heck is a blade road?

Go ahead, facepalm. I deserve it :biggrin:.
 

toddnmd

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My understanding:
Shinogi is the line where the bevel (thinning) starts, and the blade road is from the shinogi down to the edge. Wide bevel means the blade road is longer/taller than with knives where the shinogi is lower (closer to the edge), or when the knife just has an edge bevel, which would be relatively close to the edge.
Zknives has this diagram (using "Blade Path" rather than blade road, "kiriba" in Japanese): http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jbladeant.shtml
 

RDalman

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For me I use them all meaning the same thing. (thinning, but I almost always sharpen like that) Bevel.
 

KenHash

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My understanding:
Shinogi is the line where the bevel (thinning) starts, and the blade road is from the shinogi down to the edge. Wide bevel means the blade road is longer/taller than with knives where the shinogi is lower (closer to the edge), or when the knife just has an edge bevel, which would be relatively close to the edge.
Zknives has this diagram (using "Blade Path" rather than blade road, "kiriba" in Japanese): http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jbladeant.shtml
Best explanation.
 

rick_english

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Fabulous diagram at zknives, but I thought people tended to measure blade length from the heel rather than the collar/machi.
 

fimbulvetr

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Fabulous diagram at zknives, but I thought people tended to measure blade length from the heel rather than the collar/machi.
Iirc, in general, if the knife has a machi, the blade length is measured from the machi. If the tang runs smoothly from the emoto to its end, the knifes length is measured from the heel.

I further believe that this is also a regional thing; for instance makers in Sakai favor machis, which is why their knives seem to run short.

At least this is how I understand it. But I’ve essentially prepared you a book report on a book in a language I can’t read, so, you know, don’t accept my word as gospel.
 

Jacob_x

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Yeah toddnmd had basically summed it up. Shinogi is a term borrowed from traditional Japanese single bevel terminology, and refers to the line at which the blade road meets the face, or upper part of the blade. There was a lot of discussion a couple years back regarding what constitutes a proper 'wide bevel' double bevel knife, as opposed to one just finished as such, there are some threads about kono fujiyamas (blue#2 I think) vs heijis iirc that might be worth finding.
With double bevel knives however, there is a grey area, as we borrow these terms to apply to something for which they were not meant, where they don't technically fit. For example where do we categorise a non wide bevel gyuto, with a KU or nashiji finish that leaves a secondary bevel beneath, as is the case with TFs, KU watanabe etc etc. Not wide bevel geometry as such, but the aesthetic and suggested sharpening/polishing would lead one to think otherwise. I suppose 'wide bevel' can just be equated with 'secondary bevel' in this instance, which I think should cover it in most instances.

Hope I haven't just confused matters.
 

K813zra

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Even more confusing can be the use of the term secondary bevel as on other types of knife forums I have heard the term used to refer to the tiny bevel at the edge whereas here and on other kitchen knife forums it refers to what others call the grind. There was a thread about that too. :laugh: I gave up on terms long, long ago. I just explain what I mean when I say it rather than assuming the the general population knows what I am talking about. Hell, maybe I don't even know what I am talking about so an explanation seems prudent, lol.
 

XooMG

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It should be simple, but ambiguity creeps in a lot (in Japanese as well)

shinogi = ridge. Present on single bevels and some double bevels, including most kurouchi knives.

kireba (lit trans: cutting edge) = plane from shinogi to edge.

blade road/path = English term for kireba. Don't know the etymology.

wide bevel = attempt to clarify blade path, or used as compound to describe knives with such geometry.
 

osakajoe

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The ridge, shinogi, also describes a handle. What they call a D-shaped handle in English is called a shinogi handle here in Japan.
 

niwaki-boy

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The ridge, shinogi, also describes a handle. What they call a D-shaped handle in English is called a shinogi handle here in Japan.
Hi osakajoe, would this term also be applied to describe ridges in mountainous terrain? Sorry if hijacking
 

brooksie967

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Mune = spine
Hira = above shinogi line to the mune
Shinogi = between hira and kireba
Kireba = shinogi to hasaki
Hasaki = cutting edge


Single bevel:
Ura = back
Ura breaks down into: Urasuki (concave back)
Omote = front
 

K813zra

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The ridge, shinogi, also describes a handle. What they call a D-shaped handle in English is called a shinogi handle here in Japan.
That is cool to know, thank you for sharing. What I call a D handle is "comfy". I like them quite a bit.

Mune = spine
Hira = above shinogi line to the mune
Shinogi = between hira and kireba
Kireba = shinogi to hasaki
Hasaki = cutting edge


Single bevel:
Ura = back
Ura breaks down into: Urasuki (concave back)
Omote = front
Thanks, that is most helpful!
 

Andreu

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The ridge, shinogi, also describes a handle. What they call a D-shaped handle in English is called a shinogi handle here in Japan.
Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the info.
 

Andreu

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Hi Vicky. Did you ever get a hold of a Mizuno yet? Just wondering if you had such luck.
 

brooksie967

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I think you mean mine (Me-neh), unless you you want breast (of chicken, mune niku) :p
I got that from Zknives and it's also in wikipedia under hamon (swordsmithing), japanesechefknife.com.au . Though i have also seen it written "Mi'ne" and the Korin website calls it the "se" as well as "mune" on their diagrams.

I'm just a white guy from Canada so I don't have any real Japanese speaking experience but I'm seeing the same thing over and over.

I would also like some chicken breasts please.
 

XooMG

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峰 and 棟 are both ok. The former is more common in knives.
 

KenHash

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It seems both 峰 and 棟 are used to describe the se 背 (back/spine)。
The act of using the back of a katana to injure an opponent (rather than cut) is called mine uchi 峰打ち。
Here is a picture showing parts of a houchou.
The spine near the handle is called Oomune 大棟。But further forward the spine is called mine.
But there are other diagrams that show the entire spine as either mine or mune.



Written on top: e, kakumaki, oomune, hira, mine, hasaki,sori
Written on bottom: nakago, kiriba,hamoto, ago, hawatari, shinogi, kissaki
 

Valkyrae

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That is really fascinating.. I love when the little connections between knives and swords comes up!
 

Midsummer

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Well this terminology has come up recently. My google searches come up with references to the ridge between the flat portion of the blade and the slope to the cutting edge on the sword. It appears to be a term that derives from the form of a sword (double bevel).

To add something to this discussion this : The Ridges of the Japanese Sword: Making the Blade Stronger and Sharper is pretty informative. It is written by a editorial staff of a Japanese martial arts company. And while this is not authoritative; it seems to agree with many other sites I checked. Plus it has some better diagrams. Some of the terms like high and low shinogi and narrow and wide shinogi do not fit some common conceptions.
 

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