TF or Watanabe?

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So much taking place on this thread that maybe we should open up new ones.

But for the time being, an interesting aspect is the notion of how "difficult it is for a Smith to keep up with demand." Hence the need for outsourcing as has been mentioned.

How many blades does one of the big boys sell in a day, 10? 100? At around $300 and up, I have trouble believing that these Smiths are bringing in $10k a day. Maybe, maybe, $5k per day. That is pretty damn good, no?
Well, so how many blades are we taking about realistically that these houses put out? A good Smith with the right gear and the pattern of work already set, I would think making 10-15 blades per day is certainly not difficult when you consider that you have a couple of helpers.
Keep in mind that it is not rocket science to make a blade once you know what you are doing and have the equipment. Nor does it take a long time.

I would think it almost more likely that Wat makes a surplus of the cheaper/standard line that maybe gets shipped out to others to rebrand so as not to lessen his own value.
 
bahamaroot said:
A forum geek trying to impugn Maxum or Jon is a joke to me. Talk about being too stuck up your own ass.
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Yeah...
So on that note I’ll say that I’ll continue to support maxim. I like his business and I’ve always been a happy customer of his.
I’m having a spirited debate here, and am simply taking an issue with something he said.
He doubled down on what he said. I can respect the moral decision he made.
Sorry if anyone felt offended.
 
nonoyes said:
Forgot to mention it but refcast, your on-topic reply to the original inquiry was awesome.
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Thanks.

For the Fujiwara Teruyasu, I felt that it responded to a higher degree of edge taking than the Watanabe both through cutting the hair on the top of my head and through food. The Fujiwara Teruyasu more instantly snipped hair off while the Watanabe look just a little longer and didn't as aggressively just separate the hair off. The noises they make are different, too. The Fujiwara sounded a bit more damped and silently cut clumps of hair, while the Watanabe went kind of "pick-pick-pick" in very quick succession.

The Fujiwara Teruyasu produced food that was a bit less translucent and watery, a bit more opaque, and very slightly less bruised at the edges. For instance, if I cut a thin apple slice, the Maboroshi one feels drier and I can squeeze more juice out by squishing it between my fingers. The Watanabe is already somewhat pre-squished. This effect has little to do with thinness; I tried similar things with my Ginga as well, and the Watanabe is thicker in comparison behind the edge but produces slices that are less bruised.

By no means are any slices bruised, it's just comparatively so. So consider these things if you believe you would like this kind of edge taking. The drier cuts help with food release a bit, too, because since the cuts are stiffer, they don't conform as strongly to the blade face. I believe that edge taking does contribute to cutting power, but the two knives you are considering have different interpretations on this, as well as the balance of sharpness vs toughness; food release through kurouchi, hollows, and hammer indents vs a more conventional grind; and usage and user expectations.

Also, on the very finer and harder stones, the Fujiwara liked to micro-micro chip or bend if I wasn't very careful or if the angle was too extreme. The edge I can produce on the Watanabe is much tougher and hard to mis-shape during and after sharpening. I find that the more susceptible a steel is to this dis-tendment (but moreover, the finer its particles feel on the stones in sharpening), the better edge it can take, but of course it is this more dis-tendable. I tried Heiji semi-stainless and it kind of did this.
 
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I made my peace with this thread but I did want to share what Shinichi emailed me. After I asked him about some of the things that came up in this thread this was his response.
“Toyama San(noborikoi) is one of my master. We help each other. I cannot say which part is from his work. It always change.
He is around 80 years old. He works 3-4 days in a week.
Sooner or later, Toyama San will be retired. He is thinking in a few years. I have to inherit his skill from him.”
 
maxim said:
To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake
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I'm glad you said something. I think it's messed up that some people are bashing you for saying something. Something as basic as who made the knife should not be deceptive. It does matter! Yeah it will cut the same, but that's beside the point. Part of hand crafted things in general is about the artist/ Smith etc work and them being part of it. If a Smith can't be disclosed then it should be left a mystery, not marked as something else. That is deceptive and wrong. I don't care what anyone says. It's basic wrong/ right
 
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labor of love said:
I made my peace with this thread but I did want to share what Shinichi emailed me. After I asked him about some of the things that came up in this thread this was his response.
“Toyama San(noborikoi) is one of my master. We help each other. I cannot say which part is from his work. It always change.
He is around 80 years old. He works 3-4 days in a week.
Sooner or later, Toyama San will be retired. He is thinking in a few years. I have to inherit his skill from him.”
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im bad with names and getting these Toyamas mixed up. Could you break it down barney style, is this the toyama that makes knives for maxim or a different Toyama?
 
After a frustrating couple of months, I finally got my camera fixed.
Thanks to everyone who helped out with my big carbon knife hunt a couple months back- here is the results.
Opted for the TF Denka 240. After several big weekly meal preps at home, it still sticks into the board and grabs my nail. Really like the steel, it was worth it.



As an aside, does anyone have experience with Shotcut? My exports seem annoyingly choppy, and I haven't much experience with video editing.
 
OK, here's a non-choppy version. Hopefully this doesn't hurt anyone's eyes.

Maybe next time I'll get my camera to focus properly too. Wouldn't that be neat?



panda said:
wat - better grind
tf - better steel (white1)
neither profiles are ideal but to me tf profile is more versatile.
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What do you enjoy about the white steel over blue (is that your feeling?)
I agree about the grind / profile. TF is very serviceable, not exactly perfection.
 
Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.

The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.

The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.

Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.
 
refcast said:
Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.

The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.

The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.

Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.
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very well put
 
refcast said:
Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.

The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.

The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.

Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.
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Yeah this is quite the nuanced view of the two, thank you.
Sounds like based on my wishes for this knife, I made a good call. I was looking for edge retention above all, but it's good to hear the cladding is workable, for personalizing the grind in the future.

As far as sharpening, I'm really happy with the Denka feel. I agree I get different sharpening experience with different setups and different knives. When I don't like the feel, it's often because I don't have my stones well soaked, or something like that, but once that's done properly I haven't complained about any so far. That said, I have a ZDP coming in tomorrow, so I may be in for a surprise there...
 
refcast said:
Well I can talk about this some. The white steel is less gummy to sharpen, but both sharpen really really nicely, even on the cladding. The blue steel is just more wear resistant and the tiniest bit more gummy, but both feel very similar. The heat treat between different blacksmiths in sharpenability is very different compared to steels by the same smith.

The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured.

The blue steel is a whole step up bitier, and also 1/2 step up in microchipness from the white steel.

Both are great. I could live with just the white steel. It's just if you want the bitiness, more hardness, and edge retention, thinness of the blade (denka thinner than maboroshi), and alloy steel characteristics that you go denka. I actually prefer the white steel texture in food because I don't like that level of dryness. They're really cool to experience, and are amazing, but they aren't my priorities.
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What he said
 
"The white steel produces a little more juice in slices, a little more bruised (of course, its not bruised, but this is relatively speaking). The blue steel, because it's a little harder and more alloyed, makes slices more crisp, textured."

What? I must be doing it wrong.
 
tgfencer said:
Gentlemen, I seriously doubt anybody here considers Maxim or Jon as infallible, demi-gods of the knife world. If their interactions with the community at large seem to have changed in the last year or several years, then yes, perhaps we must question why, but we must also consider how we, the community, have changed. This relationship works both ways. The internet is a poor place to judge one's intentions and it is easy to get caught up in misunderstandings or interpretations and I, for one, will not be forming opinions based on this thread.
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Jon and Maxim ARE Demigods and I am their ZEUS!!! Bow down to me you silly knife waving mortals! Pay me tribute!
 
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