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RemDog

RemDog

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Hey Guys,

I try to do things myself as much as I can....oil change, brakes, minor stuff around the house and cars, etc. Goes without saying I want to sharpen my knives too. I started with high grit sandpaper and decided that wasn't for me. I watched videos obsessively to learn the techniques for freehand sharpening. Now I have the Atoma 600 (29 micron), Atoma 1200 (15 micron) and the Shapton 2000 (~7 micron). I also have a strop with 1 micron CBN spray. My grits sizes are coming from some online grit chart, so they must be spot on, LoL. Anyway, I probably could have skipped at least one of these stones, but here we are.

I also bought the cheapest junk knives I could fine, Dollar General, 3 knives for $8.5 to practice on, got some junk knives from friends to sharpen for them and my various very cheap ($10-15) pocket knives. I finally got the hang of sharpening using my Atoma 1200, I can get pretty good edge. Combine that with the strop, and I should have been happy and let it be. But, being who I am, I went and bought the Shapton. I find going from the Atoma 1200 to the Shapton my edge gets worse. It doesn't slice paper, it is rough, etc. I don't see any imperfections in the Shapton. I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong and have no idea what to adjust. Eventually, after the Shapton, I move on to the strop and get a pretty nice edge, but from what I have seen, guys coming off the Shapton are able to slice paper effortlessly, shave, etc. I'm unable to do that and would like to get to the bottom of it. By all counts, I should be able to get nicer edge off the Shapton then I'm getting. Any ideas?

I made an observation the other day. After running a knife on a large nail about 10x to dull it, I went straight to the Atoma 1200, a few strokes, maybe 10-15 each side, didn't feel a burr at all, but was able to slice really nicely. Seems like most of the videos say you should feel a burr and if not, you really aren't getting a good apex. So, how could I have gotten such a sharp knife without feeling a burr? Anyway, lots of questions as I dive deeper into this.

Before I move on to nicer knives, I would like to figure out my errors and make corrections using the cheap knives.

Thanks for your help.
 
A lot of diamond plates are almost like cheat codes for cheap stainless (read: soft) knives. For this reason a number of people will touch up a cheap knife on a coarse diamond plate and just stop there. A strop will help as it is only pulling the edge forward.

Try your Shapton in a stropping motion only (edge trailing, alternating sides) and see what you get.

Personally, I’ve never struggled with a burr, even when I was starting out. I know others have and it is very important to learn how to deal with this issue. Soft stainless tends to have the dual problem of both not taking a highly refined edge and developing a resilient burr.

If you are getting a good edge off a diamond plate, 1) try finishing with edge-leading alternating strokes, about 20, and check your edge. Then, 2) do the same with edge-trailing and check your edge again. Figure out which direction works better for you, then go to the strops. Test your edge again to see if it improved. (As much as I did NOT struggle with a burr when I started this, I DID struggle to learn stropping and set back many edges until I got better at stropping.)

When you start to advance up the stones into the higher grits it is almost a pre-requisite that you are using a steel that can actually make use of those higher grit stones. Many people often say, and I 110% agree, that it is easier to learn on better / higher quality / more expensive knives than it is cheaper ones.
 
Thanks for the information. It's interesting about cheap knives are not good to learn on. I didn't want to risk damaging my Wusthof knives not knowing how to hold the edge angle. ebay has so many knives, I wouldn't know which to get. I have sharpened a couple of Dexter knives and a nice Henkles, but that was before the Shapton came into the picture.

I have not lapped the Shapton. Didn't think it was needed on a new stone. Assume my Atoma 600 should do fine to lap the Shapton?

I will try switching my strokes on the Shapton. Leading vs trailing. I think I already did this once, but will go back to it. I really want the Shapton to workout for me. But will keep at it.
 
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It’s good that you decided to learn sharpening on a set of cheap knives.

It is important to learn to feel a burr on a knife blade after you’ve sharpened one side and before you move to the other side.

Most instructional videos will tell you to sharpen the blade somewhere between 10-20 degrees (which is usually correct)

Just for an experiment, go sharpen one of your cheap knives at 45-60 degrees on an Atoma plate on one side. Now go feel for a burr on the opposite side with damp or wet fingertips. You should pretty clearly feel it.

I couldn’t understand burrs until I did the practice above, which over exaggerates the normal burr formation of regular sharpening. Once I got the feel for it, I then transitioned to doing a normal sharpening at about 15 degrees
 
M1k3 said:
Have you lapped your shapton? The surface it comes with kind of sucks.
Click to expand...
What should the surface look/feel like? Feels very smooth and glassy to me.

I did notice just now the sides have spots that when the knife runs over them they feel different than the rest of the stone. Almost like material is missing microscopic chunks missing. No visible damage, but when the water/metal shavings hit these areas, they appear to hold the dark shavings. So I assume either it came that way or I hit the heel of the knife on the edge and maybe damaged it. Could this be lapped out too? I think I saw someone do that put a little more angle on the sides. I will try to take a picture next time I use it.
 
RemDog said:
What should the surface look/feel like? Feels very smooth and glassy to me.

I did notice just now the sides have spots that when the knife runs over them they feel different than the rest of the stone. Almost like material is missing microscopic chunks missing. No visible damage, but when the water/metal shavings hit these areas, they appear to hold the dark shavings. So I assume either it came that way or I hit the heel of the knife on the edge and maybe damaged it. Could this be lapped out too? I think I saw someone do that put a little more angle on the sides. I will try to take a picture next time I use it.
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Should feel kind of smooth. Like a somewhat smooth ceramic surface. As for the spots, could be imperfections, bubble spots from manufacturing (which are harmless) or from the knife gouging the surface.

I'd lap the surface and chamfer the edges of the stone.
 
Will do...can I use the Atoma 600 to lap or do I need to buy something specific? And, once the Atoma 600 is use to lap, can I still use sharpen with or is it now dedicated to lapping.
 
RemDog said:
Will do...can I use the Atoma 600 to lap or do I need to buy something specific? And, once the Atoma 600 is use to lap, can I still use sharpen with or is it now dedicated to lapping.
Click to expand...
Should be okay maybe a bit more fine than some do (like 400, 240) you basically are just refreshing the surface removing stuck material, leveling flat, etc. And the Atoma should be good until the diamonds wear out. With it being a new stone you shouldn't have to go crazy on it either, if you're worried about wear on either of the diamond or stone.
 
RemDog said:
Will do...can I use the Atoma 600 to lap or do I need to buy something specific? And, once the Atoma 600 is use to lap, can I still use sharpen with or is it now dedicated to lapping.
Click to expand...

Should be fine. Don’t rub too hard, let the diamonds do the work. Too much pressure can dislodge them.
 
Update, I found that doing edge trailing strokes really helped with this stone. Thanks for the tip.

Below is a link to someone's review of this stone. Note the slurry in the pictures. Mine doesn't do that. Is it because mine is still new? You can clearly see the metal and water on the stone, no slurry at all. I have not done the lapping yet, maybe its that?????

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4123

Shapton says not to use a Nagura. Does anyone here use one without issues?



Thanks
 
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RemDog said:
Update, I found that doing edge trailing strokes really helped with this stone. Thanks for the tip.

Below is a link to someone's review of this stone. Note the slurry in the pictures. Mine doesn't do that. Is it because mine is still new? You can clearly see the metal and water on the stone, no slurry at all. I have not done the lapping yet, maybe its that?????

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4123

Shapton says not to use a Nagura. Does anyone here use one without issues?



Thanks
Click to expand...

Those photos look like they’re from polishing a wide bevel, whereas I believe you’re sharpening an edge? Polishing a wide bevel is going to generate way, way more slurry than sharpening an edge.

Regarding the nagura, not sure why you’d use one for sharpening an edge especially on a synthetic? What do you think it would do for your edge?
 
Delat said:
Those photos look like they’re from polishing a wide bevel, whereas I believe you’re sharpening an edge? Polishing a wide bevel is going to generate way, way more slurry than sharpening an edge.

Regarding the nagura, not sure why you’d use one for sharpening an edge especially on a synthetic? What do you think it would do for your edge?
Click to expand...
As I said I'm new to this. Trying to learn how to best utilize my stones. I have seen others use the nagura to clean the stones, then I saw these picture and thought "should my stone look like that while sharpening on it?" I'm not sure why anyone would use a Shapton 2k for polishing, since by all counts and my own, it cuts really well. I wouldn't consider it a polishing stone.
 
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RemDog said:
As I said I'm new to this. Trying to learn how to best utilize my stones. I have seen others use the nagura to clean the stones, then I saw these picture and thought "should my stone look like that while sharpening on it?" I'm not sure why anyone would use a Shapton 2k for polishing, since by al counts and my own, it cuts really well. I wouldn't consider it a polishing stone.
Click to expand...
Polishing in the normal world means making something shiny.

Polishing in the knife world means any sort of abrasion along the path to achieving a desired finish, even if there are 10 decreasing grits involved in the sequence. It's basically anything that isn't sharpening the very edge. The Shapton 2K is a very good candidate for being part of a polishing sequence. But no one would stop there.
 
RemDog said:
As I said I'm new to this. Trying to learn how to best utilize my stones. I have seen others use the nagura to clean the stones, then I saw these picture and thought "should my stone look like that while sharpening on it?" I'm not sure why anyone would use a Shapton 2k for polishing, since by al counts and my own, it cuts really well. I wouldn't consider it a polishing stone.
Click to expand...
When we “polish” a knife, the first step is typically to use a coarse stone to get the bevels “stone ready” by evening out the bevels and removing any high or low spots. Then it’s a fairly tight progression of finer and finer stones to remove the scratches of each successive grit.

For sharpening, some slurry can help the stone cut faster, but it doesn’t need to be a mud bath.
 
Learning means making miles. A lot. Don't get impatient yet, you just started.

You should be able to get a decent edge on a cheap stainless steel. Like those knives that have been neglected for years by friends. I'm not talking hair splitting or smooth shaving, but cutting newspaper smoothly is perfectly doable.

I wouldn't change to way you use your shapton versus the diamonds.
If you only do stropping techniques on the shapton to make it work, you are doing something wrong. What? I don't know.
But the shapton 2000 is a regular middle-of-the-road stone which should work in a regular way for you.
Don't hide the lack of technique at this point by using workarounds. Search for why and what goes wrong.

Use a flashlight to check for burrs. I wouldn't be surprised that the diamonds are so aggressive on cheap stainless they leave a burr that doesn't get noticed. That could feel as 'sharp' aswell.

And don't think that Wusthoffs get you a hair splitting/smooth shaving edge. They are more decent then cheap knives in the way the the edge is straighter, less high/low spots along the edge and both sides have a similar edge degree (cheap stainless edges are all over the place most of the time as you have probably found out by now). Their thickness and steeltype doesn't make then suited for winning sharpness contests. Still, very good knives for daily kitchen use and you can get them sharp enough.

Lap the shapton and continue the regular way.


Use a loupe to check if you kind of have a steady hand, or that you are all over the place. Since you are a beginner, I bet this is the thing to focus on. Diamonds are so aggressive, then when you change angle by accident, in two strokes the new angle becomes the whole new edge. You hardly notice you changed the angle.
If you change angle at the shapton 2000, you probably convex/round of the edge, leaving a dull kind of feel.
 
Kawa said:
I wouldn't be surprised that the diamonds are so aggressive on cheap stainless they leave a burr that doesn't get noticed. That could feel as 'sharp' aswell.
Click to expand...

ScienceOfSharp:
(sometimes) Burrs are bad

I am confident that many people are deliberately but unwittingly forming burrs with their sharpening process, and they are happy with the results. Most so-called “toothy” edges formed by coarse stones are burrs, and there is no question that these edges can perform better in certain tasks than a refined, burr-free razor-type edge.
Click to expand...

From https://scienceofsharp.com/2024/02/03/seven-misconceptions-about-knife-burrs/
 
Kawa said:
Learning means making miles. A lot. Don't get impatient yet, you just started.

You should be able to get a decent edge on a cheap stainless steel. Like those knives that have been neglected for years by friends. I'm not talking hair splitting or smooth shaving, but cutting newspaper smoothly is perfectly doable.

I wouldn't change to way you use your shapton versus the diamonds.
If you only do stropping techniques on the shapton to make it work, you are doing something wrong. What? I don't know.
But the shapton 2000 is a regular middle-of-the-road stone which should work in a regular way for you.
Don't hide the lack of technique at this point by using workarounds. Search for why and what goes wrong.

Use a flashlight to check for burrs. I wouldn't be surprised that the diamonds are so aggressive on cheap stainless they leave a burr that doesn't get noticed. That could feel as 'sharp' aswell.

And don't think that Wusthoffs get you a hair splitting/smooth shaving edge. They are more decent then cheap knives in the way the the edge is straighter, less high/low spots along the edge and both sides have a similar edge degree (cheap stainless edges are all over the place most of the time as you have probably found out by now). Their thickness and steeltype doesn't make then suited for winning sharpness contests. Still, very good knives for daily kitchen use and you can get them sharp enough.

Lap the shapton and continue the regular way.


Use a loupe to check if you kind of have a steady hand, or that you are all over the place. Since you are a beginner, I bet this is the thing to focus on. Diamonds are so aggressive, then when you change angle by accident, in two strokes the new angle becomes the whole new edge. You hardly notice you changed the angle.
If you change angle at the shapton 2000, you probably convex/round of the edge, leaving a dull kind of feel.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed response. You are right, I don't want to mask errors, I want to fix them. Seems like a long road. As far as Wusthof quality and me not wanting to practice on them, it is just related to the cost of the knives. I don't want to cause damage that will require a trip to get fixed.
 
RemDog said:
Thanks for the detailed response. You are right, I don't want to mask errors, I want to fix them. Seems like a long road. As far as Wusthof quality and me not wanting to practice on them, it is just related to the cost of the knives. I don't want to cause damage that will require a trip to get fixed.
Click to expand...
Get a cheap grocery store knife (Asian markets have these in spades), or from the dollar bin at your local thrift store.
 
Heckel7302 said:
Get a cheap grocery store knife (Asian markets have these in spades), or from the dollar bin at your local thrift store.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I got 3 junk knives from Dollar General for $8.5. I have been dulling/sharpening them daily. I just bought a few used Henckels on ebay, they looked pretty rough, so that will be a good challenge.
 
Quick update:

I have bought 4 used Henckels Twins now (a bit over zealous) and have been practicing on them. The ones I have received so far had terrible edges, but the rest of the knife was fine. They sharpened with relative ease moving from my Atoma 600 up to my Shapton 2000, and final stropping with 1 micron CBN. Overall, I'm pleased with how the knives came out. They are extremely sharp on newspaper. If I had to nit pick, I would say the tip, about 1-2 inches of it, is not as sharp as the rest of the edge. It still runs through news paper and shaves, but I can tell its not as sharp as the rest of the edge.

My Shapton 2000 seems to be dishing out already. I thought these didn't dish out fast? I can see a tiny sliver of light when I put a straight edge on it right in the middle. It's probably still fine, but I will clean it up anyway before putting it away for a while. I'm satisfied that I can do a decent job sharpening now. I think I can probably stop on my Atoma 1200, the Shapton will come out only when I feel like going the extra mile.

A friend gave me his Cutco knife to sharpen. That knife is terrible. I would never buy a Cutco based on this experience alone. Did not sharpen well, the burr wouldn't come off, took for ever to get half decent edge. Is that pretty common? I assume its a bad steel?
 
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