Which knife should I buy? Zwilling Pro vs Wustof Classic Ikon, and questionnaire.

[SlickWillyTFCF]

This is kind of a two part post, though it's all about which knives I should buy. I'm going to fill this out so all the info is covered, and maybe I'll get some suggestions for knives I haven't run across yet too. I've sort of narrowed it down to the Zwilling Pro and the Wustof Classic Ikon, so if anyone has experience with either of those I'd love to hear what you think. I've been able to kind of test out the feel of the Pro and I like the classic handle shape and half bolster, but I haven't been able to give the more ergonomic handle of the Classic Ikon a go yet so I'm not sure if I'd like it. Any input would be much appreciated.

LOCATION
I'm located in the US.


KNIFE TYPE

What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
It's an upgrade from some fairly crappy knives so to start: a chef's knife, a paring knife, and a serrated bread knife. Maybe a utility or boning knife too depending on whether or not you think I need it to break down chickens more easily.

Are you right or left handed? Lefty

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western handle. Partially because lefty versions of Japanese knives are either hard to get or really expensive when you can.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Eight or nine inch chef, 3.5 or 4 inch paring, eight or nine inch serrated, and a 5 or 6 inch utility/boning

Do you require a stainless knife? No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Since the chef knife will be the most expensive let's say $200. I'm thinking like 450-550 for the three or four knives, a steel, blade guards, and a roll.



KNIFE USE

Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Primarily in home kitchens though I'll be putting them through their paces, just not doing restaurant level volume.

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)?
I'm getting multiple knives so I don't necessarily need one that covers a ton of uses. The only question is whether I should get a boning or utility knife for breaking down poultry or if I should just go at it with the chef knife.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? Replacing a ****** set of Farberware knives, so anything is an upgrade.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
I use the rock most often, and the push cut would probably be my next most commonly used cut.

What improvements do you want from your current knife?
There's nothing specific I can really point out since everything will be improved no matter what knife I get. I suppose I'm most looking for a knife that's heavier (sturdier), a better handle, and better food release. Better edge retention is a good thing, but since I'll be sharpening them myself and can do it whenever they need it, it's not a major point of contention.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Yes. Currently poly, but want to pick up a wood when I get new knives.

Do you sharpen your own knives?
Yes




SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Like I mentioned at the beginning I'm looking for a full compliment of knives as a replacement for what I have now, and I've tentatively narrowed it down to the Zwilling Pro and the Wustof Ikon. If you've used either, or both, of them and can point out the pros and cons, that would help me. If you have any other knife suggestions that I may have overlooked I'm more than happy to hear those too.

 

[chiffonodd]

Just FYI you shouldn't have too much trouble checking out jknives as a lefty - just look for even or even-ish grinds and an octo handle (it's a pronounced assymetrical grind and D handles that can create issues). Can be many orders of magnitude more fun to cook with than a german clunker

As for specific recommendations, I'll let an actual lefty pipe up. :knife:

 

[daveb]

Welcome.

Among the German knives I like the Messermeister Meridian series the most. They are balanced a little towards the blade (blade heavy) which makes them easier to work with, especially with any serious amount of use. They also have a semi-bolster so its much better for sharpening than a Wustie Classic though priced about the same.

I've had Wustie Ikons and while I like them they are balanced at the handle and cost some 25% more than the Classic or Messermeister. The handle is different but it's neither a positive or negative. Of your two choices they would be my preference.

IMO Zwilling/Henckels does not know where they want to be in the knife world. The Four Star is the best they ever put out. Since then they've tried to hit every market with knives that run from Meh to crap. Zwilling Kramer and Zwilling Miyabi may be exceptions.

Suggest that you start your new adventure with a single chef knife to get a feel for what you like. Also suggest you expand your search and try a Japanese knife or three. Most of the posters on here have "graduated" from the Euro knives and prefer the Japanese for the harder steels, better edges and of course the much cooler handles.

 

[chinacats]

What Dave said...except to say Henckels sctuslly did make some great knives around 50+ years ago.

 

[Benuser]

If you insist on getting a German knife: some models of the former Cordon Bleu series have now migrated to the Classics:
https://www.wuesthof.com/international/products/Product-details/cook-s-knife-4581-23
Lighter, balance point at the bolster, no fingerguard.

Left-handed versions of the Masahiro, both the stainless and the carbons, are within your budget:

https://www.knifemerchant.com/products.asp?manufacturerID=11

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Thanks, glad to be here.

I've noticed that people around here tend to prefer the Japanese knives - I assumed it was a novelty more than a steel preference or aesthetics. For me it would have nothing to do with "cooler" handles because, from my admittedly limited experience with them, I hate everything about traditional Japanese knife handles: the size disparity between handle and steel, no transition into the blade, etc. If I was a hammer-gripper that never used a pinch grip I might not feel so strongly, but that's not me. Chiffonodd mentioned D and octagonal handles and even lefty specific models like the ones I've tried from Shun don't work for me. I also can't get used to the asymmetrical grinds and the "steer" they have so I'd prefer not to use them. Do you know of any Japanese brands that have symmetrical grinds?

You mentioned harder steels and better edges on Japanese knives, but I don't see edge retention as a deal breaker since I don't mind taking a steel to the knife occasionally and when they need to be sharpened I'll be taking care of that myself.

To be fair to the Japanese knife lovers out there, I have taken a real hard look at the Masahiros and if I had to throw a line of Japanese knives in the mix those would be it based on aesthetics. I've also looked into Tojiro, Masamoto, and Misono lines, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about the blade profiles as opposed to the European ones I'm already accustomed to.

What is it about German knives, Zwilling/Henckels in particular, that you don't like, steel choice, business strategy, blade profile...?

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Left-handed versions of the Masahiro, both the stainless and the carbons, are within your budget

Masahiro is one of the Japanese brands that was on my short list. In your opinion, what are some benefits of Masahiros? What are some other brands to look into? Honestly the crazy asymmetry in the Masahiros is what made me disregard them. Not for difficulty in sharpening, but because it causes the knife to roll to one side and cut unevenly.

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

What Dave said...except to say Henckels sctuslly did make some great knives around 50+ years ago.

What makes them less desirable now, 50+ years later?

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Can be many orders of magnitude more fun to cook with than a german clunker

What makes them more fun to use?

Do you know of any brands off the top of your head that don't have such mismatched angles on the grind?

 

[Benuser]

Masahiro is one of the Japanese brands that was on my short list. In your opinion, what are some benefits of Masahiros? What are some other brands to look into?

Speaking only about the carbons: excellent steel, high edge retention, quite some bite, low reactivity. Asymmetry: strongly biased. Almost neutral balance, low tip. Good price.

Misono does offer left versions as well for all series. Ask Mr Iwahara from japanesechefsknife.com, koki @ kencrest.us

Loosen your grip and steering should be no problem once you have adequately sharpened the blade.

With knives and with a lot of other things: don't rely on your first impression.

 

[chiffonodd]

What makes them more fun to use?

A number of factors, but the most salient when it comes to performance are probably thinner grinds overall, harder and finer-grained steel that can handle more extreme edge geometries, lighter and more nimble, etc.

This is a bit of a generalization and i am talking on average here, but traditional euro knives can feel like driving a mini van. J knives are more like a sports car.

 

[Nemo]

I would add thst food release is much better for most Japanese knives. Not sure if this holds true for left handers using a right haner ground knife though.

 

[Benuser]

A number of factors, but the most salient when it comes to performance are probably thinner grinds overall, harder and finer-grained steel that can handle more extreme edge geometries, lighter and more nimble, etc.

This is a bit of a generalization and i am talking on average here, but traditional euro knives can feel like driving a mini van. J knives are more like a sports car.

I would add that modern, industrial German knives tend to have a high tip which makes that tip unusable if you aren't very tall and working behind a far too low counter. And most are handle-heavy which only rock-choppers will like.

 

[chinacats]

What makes them less desirable now, 50+ years later?

I grew up using Henckels and thought they were very good knives...in fact i still have a set from the early 70's as well as a chefs knife from the turn of the century. The shapes were better then imo...pointier and flatter...the problem is the soft steel that rolls. I enjoy scooping product off the board and the soft stainless rolls. You can steel it back into shape but when you do it weakens the edge. I prefer a harder steel that will microchip instead. Harder steel of good quality is much easier to sharpen then soft stainless. Just a preference but it seems to line up with most of the other knuts around here. Btw, my personal favorite knife is made in Germany and I'm having another made there now but it is carbon high hardness steel made to a profile I enjoy (Tilman Leder).

One other note to think about is that asymmetry is really no big deal. At around 70/30 steering is almost undetectable and sharpening is only a matter of following the bevels...but release is usually better.

Cheers in whatever you decide.

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

...left handers using a right haner ground knife...

It most certainly does not hold true if you're using a knife ground for the other hand. The flat/nearly flat side that would normally be in contact with the main part of the food you're cutting is instead in contact with the piece you're slicing off and it hangs on for dear life. I found this out a number of years ago when I was trying out a friends Shun at work one day (I'm a bartender, he's a chef).

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

The shapes were better then imo...pointier and flatter..., my personal favorite knife is made in Germany and I'm having another made there now but it is carbon high hardness steel made to a profile I enjoy (Tilman Leder).

One other note to think about is that asymmetry is really no big deal. At around 70/30 steering is almost undetectable and sharpening is only a matter of following the bevels...but release is usually better.

Cheers in whatever you decide.

I've noticed the change in shapes and how much more belly the newer German profiles have. From what I've seen and heard the older ones more closely resembled a French profile.

Your favorite is a high carbon steel, as in have to wipe it down or it will rust carbon steel? I've tossed around the idea of getting one of those because the idea of carbon steel doesn't scare me and the benefits of the steel are enough to outweigh any potential downside like the possibility of rusting. The only problem is that I haven't found any glowing reviews for any carbon steel knives other than the Zwilling Kramer.

I guess the asymmetric knives I've tried have all been 80/20. The no-name deba I have steers something awful, and I've used it enough that I thought I'd be able to get the hang of it, but no such luck. The only reason I use it anymore is because it's heftier than the other **** knives I have. The combination of the handle and the asymmetric grind make it less than pleasing to use. Good to know that 70/30 grinds have noticeably less steer. I'll have to check into those a bit more.

Thanks for all the input. It's definitely narrowing down the possibilities.

P.S. where would someone look for Tilman Leder knives?

 

[chinacats]

Tilman's a custom knife maker so your have to contact him directly... there was one on b/s/t recently but pretty sure it has already sold.

Don't let carbon scare you...I think all knives should be wiped dry and put away when finished so to me it's just normal kitchen habits...

Debas are usually 100/0 and yes they steer like hell... actually 80/20 shouldn't steer too bad either but that also depends on the thickness of a knife... the thinner it is the less steering you're likely to notice.

Yes, kind of sad about modern German profiles... they were much better some time ago though I can't say when that changed.

 

[Benuser]

I've noticed the change in shapes and how much more belly the newer German profiles have. From what I've seen and heard the older ones more closely resembled a French profile.

Your favorite is a high carbon steel, as in have to wipe it down or it will rust carbon steel? I've tossed around the idea of getting one of those because the idea of carbon steel doesn't scare me and the benefits of the steel are enough to outweigh any potential downside like the possibility of rusting. The only problem is that I haven't found any glowing reviews for any carbon steel knives other than the Zwilling Kramer.

I guess the asymmetric knives I've tried have all been 80/20. The no-name deba I have steers something awful, and I've used it enough that I thought I'd be able to get the hang of it, but no such luck. The only reason I use it anymore is because it's heftier than the other **** knives I have. The combination of the handle and the asymmetric grind make it less than pleasing to use. Good to know that 70/30 grinds have noticeably less steer. I'll have to check into those a bit more.

Thanks for all the input. It's definitely narrowing down the possibilities.

P.S. where would someone look for Tilman Leder knives?

Henckels from the beginning of the 20th century followed the French (Sabatier) pattern.
See how close this Robert Herder 1922 is to the old the French, less belly than modern Thiers-Issard:

Modern Germans have the tip almost in line with the spine. See this Zwilling 1731

https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-zwilling-twin-1731-koksmes.htm

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Modern Germans have the tip almost in line with the spine.

Which seems fine if all you do is rock the knife. The Zwilling Pro has a very pronounced belly on their chef knife, but they also offer what they call the "Traditional Chef Knife" which is much closer to the French style.
Look at the huge belly on this one https://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=7611 versus the much more classically shaped "traditional" one here https://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=8718

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Do any of you have experience or knowledge of Kikuichi Elite Carbon knives?

 

[Benuser]

Steel is from the SK series, OK but by far inferior to the Masahiro Virgin or Misono Swedish. Expect substantially higher amounts of contaminants like sulphur. Similar to Fujiwara FKH at half of the price. Haven't seen left-handed versions so far.

 

[esoo]

Just to throw it in here - I had the Zwillng Diplome 8” Chefs for a while and thought it was a decent rock chopping knife. The balance point is on the bolster which makes it a touch handle heavy, but nice enough steel for the price.

 

[Benuser]

Just to throw it in here - I had the Zwillng Diplome 8” Chefs for a while and thought it was a decent rock chopping knife. The balance point is on the bolster which makes it a touch handle heavy, but nice enough steel for the price.

What steel is it again?

 

[esoo]

FC61 - which is supposedly a version of 13C26/AEB-L. OOTB sharpness was decent, and I had taken it to the stones once and it took a nice enough edge. Not sure about retention though.

 

[chinacats]

Do any of you have experience or knowledge of Kikuichi Elite Carbon knives?

Kikuichi=overpriced and as stated not the best steel

 

[K813zra]

FC61 - which is supposedly a version of 13C26/AEB-L. OOTB sharpness was decent, and I had taken it to the stones once and it took a nice enough edge. Not sure about retention though.

The FC61 steel, whatever it happens to be, is actually a fairly nice steel as treated. I have a few Miyabi knives with it and like it well enough. Tough, decent edge retention, easy to sharpen and in-law proof.

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

Steel is from the SK series, OK but by far inferior to the Masahiro Virgin or Misono Swedish. Expect substantially higher amounts of contaminants like sulphur. Similar to Fujiwara FKH at half of the price. Haven't seen left-handed versions so far.

Haven't seen left-handed versions of the Kikuichi? The grind on the Elite Carbon is symmetrical from what I can tell so there aren't handed versions. I would prefer the Masahiro, but that 80/20 grind is something I'm trying to stay away from.

Are Misono good knives overall? The Swedish are less expensive than both the Kikuichi and Masahiro so it's a better value if the steel is better. Do you know what types of steel each version uses?

Edit: just looked into the Misono and they are 70/30 and I can't find any that are left-handed. I know they should be easy enough to re-profile to make left-handed, but I don't want to have to put that much effort into a new knife to make it usable.

 

[esoo]

Edit: just looked into the Misono and they are 70/30 and I can't find any that are left-handed. I know they should be easy enough to re-profile to make left-handed, but I don't want to have to put that much effort into a new knife to make it usable.

I haven't used the Misono lefty Swedish yet as mine is in the mail, but if you order for JCK, you can order a true lefty version.

 

[supersayan3]

Wustof Classic Ikon have one of the best handles ever.
Better go with a Japanese knife.
Masahiro stainless, mv and mvh lines with the plastic Pom handles, much better choices.
Kikuichi resells knives, doesn't produce as far as I know.

 

[SlickWillyTFCF]

...Masahiro...

That brings us back to the offset grind, 80/20 in the case of Masahiro, and I'm trying to stay away from that. I'm willing to forego German knives in favor of Japanese, but I would rather stick with a double bevel grind.