Williams Sonoma nogent, made in France

[Ericfg]

These popped up on ebay today and I find them interesting.
Very early 'nogent' style, but Williams Sonoma wasn't started until 1956.
Seller states 'probably stainless steel'.
Looks like really nice craftsmanship on these IMO.
It gives us an idea of what was going around 1960.

 

[Benuser]

Any idea what has been used for the handle? Really old ones are from thin, very thin ebony. They do look solid but certainly are not. The advantage of boring with a large diameter is in keeping the forward balance point.
German makers have used really solid handles. A more neutral balance was hardly seen as a problem. See the forward slicing French and rock-chopping Germans.
As for the steel: if it really is stainless — I have my doubts — I would certainly avoid it. Hardly taking an edge.

 

[Ericfg]

Any idea what has been used for the handle? Really old ones are from thin, very thin ebony. They do look solid but certainly are not. The advantage of boring with a large diameter is in keeping the forward balance point.
German makers have used really solid handles. A more neutral balance was hardly seen as a problem. See the forward slicing French and rock-chopping Germans.
As for the steel: if it really is stainless — I have my doubts — I would certainly avoid it. Hardly taking an edge.

No idea on the handle. It does have that chocolaty Walnut color to it. Maybe supplied by WS? Certainly not ebony. The German nogents I've rehandled all had thin tangs and thick/solid scales.
As for the steel, while it's not stamped stainless it does look like it to me. And if my 1960s date is close that's when the ss craze took off.
As for avoiding those knives... Considering my love of Western knives, if I had resources to acquire as many of those old makers that I could I'd be all-in.
BTW a carbon G.E.Ern 10+ incher with only mild recurve just sold for ~$150
I'm watching this(WS) auction and will report when it's sold if anybody cares.

 

[McMan]

My thinking would be late-60s at the earliest. Those are definitely blocky handles--that big step from ferrule to handle was less pronounced on the earlier nogent handles. Dyed beechwood handles began to replace ebony around this time too.
I agree with @Benuser, that 60-70s stainless was bleak. If these are stainless, then they won't be much fun.

 

[deltaplex]

No idea on the handle. It does have that chocolaty Walnut color to it. Maybe supplied by WS? Certainly not ebony. The German nogents I've rehandled all had thin tangs and thick/solid scales.
As for the steel, while it's not stamped stainless it does look like it to me. And if my 1960s date is close that's when the ss craze took off.
As for avoiding those knives... Considering my love of Western knives, if I had resources to acquire as many of those old makers that I could I'd be all-in.
BTW a carbon G.E.Ern 10+ incher with only mild recurve just sold for ~$150
I'm watching this(WS) auction and will report when it's sold if anybody cares.

It also had a lot of not insignificant pitting on it, and it needed a rehandle (IMO)

 

[Benuser]

It also had a lot of not insignificant pitting on it, and it needed a rehandle (IMO)

So at least, it was a carbon.

 

[deltaplex]

So at least, it was a carbon.

It was all in all pretty nice; probably not $165 + the additional work to get it "refreshed" nice though

 

[Ericfg]

that 60-70s stainless was bleak.

Henckels Friodur would like to have a word with you.

 

[Benuser]

Henckels Friodur would like to have a word with you.

French stainless from that time hardly takes an edge.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

Didn't cryogenic formula's with heating, freezing, reheating stainless steel knives get perfected in 1950's. Perhaps it wasn't worldwide. Many stainless kitchen knives have good heat treatments. Of coarse grind is important on how well a knife cuts.

Know sound like a broken record, my modern K- Sabatier carbon steel 10" chef knife has a workhorse grind cuts plenty frozen cantaloupe, banana's, strawberries, mangos for our protein fruit smoothies. I've even split lobsters with it. When bought it had no idea it would be used every day. It takes a very sharp edge finish on shapton pro 5K stone.

Looks little different now from when it was new. Ground off bolster so full heel sharpening not a problem. Next to vintage nogent Seal logo carbon Sab. Keep it sharp, Olivewood handle. Excellent no worries just cut workhorse blade, good buy at 100.00.

 

[Benuser]

What a beautiful carbons! Love the way you have reduced the fingerguard without defigurating the traditional design.
About those French stainless: they were much earlier produced for export than for the local market, which was until the seventies very sceptical. "It may shine but doesn't cut."
Haven't handled the ones meant for the American market, and no local ones OOTB. Most here were made of steel with a very low carbon content, think Z40C14 and worse. Sure, they were stainless, but that's all you may say about it. A possible factor in explaining my poor experience with them may be the very common sharpening practice on uncooled grinding wheels and excessive use of poor steeling rods.

 

[Ericfg]

Didn't cryogenic formula's with heating, freezing, reheating stainless steel knives get perfected in 1950's. Perhaps it wasn't worldwide. Many stainless kitchen knives have good heat treatments. Of coarse grind is important on how well a knife cuts.

I can't remember where I found this quote: "In 1939 ZWILLING applied for the patent for the ice-hardening process. Ice-hardened FRIODUR® blades have extremely good cutting edge retention, are flexible, ultra-corrosion-resistant. During 1939, the company received patent protection on its unique “ice-hardening” treatment process for 440C “Inox” stainless steel products. The correct term would be cryogenic tempering, because the finished blade is immersed in liquid nitrogen."
I've no reason to doubt it.

 

[sanmateo]

How much did the Williams Sonoma nogent knives go for?

 

[Benuser]

I can't remember where I found this quote: "In 1939 ZWILLING applied for the patent for the ice-hardening process. Ice-hardened FRIODUR® blades have extremely good cutting edge retention, are flexible, ultra-corrosion-resistant. During 1939, the company received patent protection on its unique “ice-hardening” treatment process for 440C “Inox” stainless steel products. The correct term would be cryogenic tempering, because the finished blade is immersed in liquid nitrogen."
I've no reason to doubt it.

Are you sure it is about 440C? That was developed by Crucible in the forties.

 

[Ericfg]

Are you sure it is about 440C? That was developed by Crucible in the forties.

I copied that quote from somewheres on the internet so take that for what it's worth.