Yanagi is not 100% straight, ok?

[Korin_Mari]

BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?

Thank you all for the help and interesting information.

If the vendor feels that there is no major issue, they may ask for the return shipping fee. Returns and exchanges on products is also not a part of the Japanese norm. Unless there is some obvious/major imperfection that both sides acknowledge, stores won't accept it.

 

[mhlee]

This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel.

We think the gap is no problem to use.
I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
We never check the straightness on the table. We only check the straightness on the edge with eye. We think it is enough for kitchen knife.

He is open for the return but this mean I will take a loss in shipping twice. And I could of get Gesshin Hide for that price. Feels so lame
BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?

Thank you all for the help and interesting information.

Just another reason to buy from a reputable seller that offers support for its products, rather than trying to save a little money on a potentially inferior product from a vendor that doesn't offer good customer service or support for its products.

 

[Ruso]

he's right about how straightness is checked in japan... everyone does it by eye, and more than 90% of the time, that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of factors to consider before returning something like that. Your knife may be perfectly functional or there may be problems. For me, its really hard to see from the pictures, but for what its worth, even more expensive knives have issues like that sometimes, and they arent always a problem. On the plus side, most of these kinds of things are fixable by skilled craftsmen.

Point taken, however I do not know any skilled craftsman in my area to asset the knife and/or give me a quote on the repair. Plus it's kinda silly to repair a brand new item, I think,

Just another reason to buy from a reputable seller that offers support for its products, rather than trying to save a little money on a potentially inferior product from a vendor that doesn't offer good customer service or support for its products.

As I mentioned earlier it's a Watanbe knife and he seems to have quite good reputation. And besides, I am not aware of any other resellers of his work.

 

[JBroida]

@ruso what do you think most wholesalers in japan are doing when they get knives like what you see? Everyone, including myself, fixes stuff like this all day long. Its part of our job.

 

[Ruso]

Jon, I was pretty certain that you can fix it. However I did not think this is common for wholesalers to do it since my assumption was that they get merchandise that have passed some sort of QC.
However, and really unfortunate for me, you are not located near by. We are in different countries and sending the Yanagi your way will cost me even more than back to Japan; believe it or not Also that's prevent me of buying more goodies from you (fortunate for my wife I guess )

The only one place I can think of here is Tosho, I will see what they say in terms of fixing it. But again, I am not too fond of fix brand new items, leaves a bitter taste....

 

[JBroida]

things do pass QC for sure... but bending is a very easy to fix problem. Anyways, consider this...

All clad blades warp... even honyaki blades warp during sharpening. They must be fixed. So the craftsmen fix the bends, warps, and twists. Some that are beyond normal means are discarded (but this standard will vary depending on what line they are making, and for whom). Then, the knives go to retailers or wholesalers, who, in turn, perform QC and do the same thing (to the best of their means... which is often less than the craftsmen in a significant way, but not always). Then it gets sold. Even then, over time, when the knife is sharpened, it will need to be straightened. Its just the way it is.

-Jon

 

[Ruso]

Thanks Jon it's pretty interesting to see how knives get from manufacture to the customer.
A question for you. As a seller would you offer a free straightening service or a replacement if somebody brought you attention to a similar problem on one of "your" brand new knife. Based on you first posts it gave me an impression that you would certainly do.

What bugs me the most, that Watanabe says that is normal. If it looked somewhat weird to me, and you guys, with much more knowledge and experience, say that the blade has to be fixed (hence not the norm/ideal condition), it hard to believe he honestly thinks it's just fine. It does feel like I am getting ripped off little bit May be I am wrong here, then I am just a discontent customer.

May be his assumption is that everyone can/will straighten their new blade on their own, similar to creating an edge. Then, perhaps I've chosen poorly.

But this to many "may be".

 

[orange]

When I was somewhat new to a yanagi, I experienced a few yanagis I had bowed after sharpening sessions at different times. As I did not have much knife knowledge back then, I was surprised and felt that I got scammed by getting either faulty or 2nd-grade knives from reputable makers. So, I fully understand your feeling.

However, despite of others opinion about the blade, to my eyes, your Watanabe is ground like that as a part of tapering and I am not sure if it is a problem.
As I mentioned, my tadatsuna honyakis are like that but I have not experienced any functional deficiency because of it.
And as you start using the knife and acquiring proper techniques of using a yanagi, you may soon find yourself shaping the knife in the way you want (thinning the blade, changing the shape of blade path or the shape of edge, etc) and the issue you have now may turn out no big deal to you as well.
Moreover, you can easily bend the knife to make it flat on the backside if you wish. Just google "how to fix a bent kitchen knife" and you will see a video for how to do it with your hands and a flat surface. I straightened my bent yanagis in the same way before. Of course, when I first had to do it, I was scared of breaking it or hurting myself.

If you are uncomfortable for doing it and only going to use the knife few times a year as a show to family and friends, don't torture yourself and just return it as you have an option of doing so now. Think about it though; What if the blade is flat on the backside now but becomes bent sometime later, what would you do then??

 

[JBroida]

Thanks Jon it's pretty interesting to see how knives get from manufacture to the customer.
A question for you. As a seller would you offer a free straightening service or a replacement if somebody brought you attention to a similar problem on one of "your" brand new knife. Based on you first posts it gave me an impression that you would certainly do.

What bugs me the most, that Watanabe says that is normal. If it looked somewhat weird to me, and you guys, with much more knowledge and experience, say that the blade has to be fixed (hence not the norm/ideal condition), it hard to believe he honestly thinks it's just fine. It does feel like I am getting ripped off little bit May be I am wrong here, then I am just a discontent customer.

May be his assumption is that everyone can/will straighten their new blade on their own, similar to creating an edge. Then, perhaps I've chosen poorly.

But this to many "may be".

probably, but i would have to see how severe it was. More often than not, however, i just fix things. That being said, the way i deal with things like this is not the same as they way i would expect this to be dealt with in japan. To be honest, even the level of care people expect in honbadzuke here is greater than what is expected/normal in japan.

Aside from the above comment, i dont really want to say much more. There are a lot of factors on both sides of this, and i dont feel right making any rigid assessment of the situation.

 

[osakajoe]

As the seller said all Japanese hand forged blades are not all the same. You have one guy who is the forger and only the forger. One guy who is only the grinder. One guy who is only the handle maker. So your knife guys through a few guys before its completed. there blades can get damaged anywhere in between these processes. As far as whether the blade was forged properly, its usually the grinder who can tell whether or not the forger forged the blade properly since he is the one actually sharpening the knife.

As far as your knife, Small bends like that are not that uncommon and easy to fix if its a good quality knife. Like the others said honyaki are much much harder and not advised to be messing around with to fix.

A simple wooden device with certain grooves and slots cut into it. thiis can help straighten blades by place the knife in the grooved slots and slightly applying pressure to bend the blade in the direction you want. i can post pictures of the straigtner tomorrow.

 

[zitangy]

The way I see it.. your options open are as follows:-

a) Watanabe offers to fix it at the cost of shipment both ways which in his eyes is generous enough; rightly or wrongly. THus if you must have a perfect knife.. I wld send it back adn swallow the cost of shipping and be happy with the knife and enjoy it. and get a brand new one (replacement)and wait it necessary

b) Getting it fixed by a trusted vendor: there is still a most which can be the same as the shipping cost. but then again you may not be pleased with the outcome... a little dicey.

c) fixing it yourself.. may a a source of joy if you achieve it.

I still cant determine from the pic whether the left side is tapered as opposed to it being flat as based on my understanding it shld be for a straight pull cut

IF so, unless i am sadly mistaken, thats not the way it should be.

At the end of the day... as a honyaki buyer you shld be pleased with the item.. and able to enjoy it when it delivers in terms of performance and not be clouded that it is not a perfect piece when you got it.

Finally..decide wisely for yrself. I chose to live with a broken tip of a Honyaki sword tip l when it was delivered to me. sanded it over over a few sessions.. and it is still work in progress after a few years!

A bent knife will not cut straight obviously and a flat side with a distal may not be able to serve its intended purpose; unless they are all made that way.. of which this wld a revelation to me.

Bent knife during sharpening? it can't just happen by itself. I can only speculate that for it for it to happen during sharpening is when the pressure is near tip area from left hand and right hand pressure via thumb and possibly also index finger is on the choil area and doing long strokes and in the process bending it backwards ( ura side).

Have fun and rgds
d

 

[JBroida]

As the seller said all Japanese hand forged blades are not all the same. You have one guy who is the forger and only the forger. One guy who is only the grinder. One guy who is only the handle maker. So your knife guys through a few guys before its completed. there blades can get damaged anywhere in between these processes. As far as whether the blade was forged properly, its usually the grinder who can tell whether or not the forger forged the blade properly since he is the one actually sharpening the knife.

As far as your knife, Small bends like that are not that uncommon and easy to fix if its a good quality knife. Like the others said honyaki are much much harder and not advised to be messing around with to fix.

A simple wooden device with certain grooves and slots cut into it. thiis can help straighten blades by place the knife in the grooved slots and slightly applying pressure to bend the blade in the direction you want. i can post pictures of the straigtner tomorrow.

true for sakai, but not sanjo, where this knife is from (with regard to the way craftsmen work). In sanjo, you see that the blacksmith and sharpener are the same person more of then than not.

 

[orange]

Bent knife during sharpening? it can't just happen by itself. I can only speculate that for it for it to happen during sharpening is when the pressure is near tip area from left hand and right hand pressure via thumb and possibly also index finger is on the choil area and doing long strokes and in the process bending it backwards ( ura side).

Have fun and rgds
d

The bending of my kobayashi and masamoto happened during sharpening sessions in winter; I was sharpening the knives late at night in the kitchen with tap water running.
I exposed the blades to kind of "hot" running tap water directly on the knives and stones as my hand was cold. I recall that the blades became hot enough that I could not touch it with my fingers near the tip area but blades became cool quickly. So, during the sharpening sessions the blades went through hot/cold cycles until I noticed the bending. As hagane/jigane have different thermal expansion coeff., I have been under the impression that the hot water might have caused the bending.
Anyway, since the experience of the bending, I only use warm water in winter and never let the blades to become hot. I have never experienced any more bending of a blade since.
By the way, I don't do the long stoke...only section by section.

 

[zitangy]

Hey

thanks for relating yr experience and trouble to isolate the probable cause. IT also means that Kasumi knives shld also not be washed with really hot water.

a)It got me to searching for the wide stone that I bought a long time ago ( almost twice the normal width of a Naniwa stone) to obviate the said possibility of bending issue on a narrow stone.

b) also to focus sharpening on areas just under the fingers.

rgds
d

 

[Ruso]

Thanks again all for the input. It's becoming quite an interesting and informative thread.

a) Watanabe offers to fix it at the cost of shipment both ways which in his eyes is generous enough; rightly or wrongly. THus if you must have a perfect knife.. I wld send it back adn swallow the cost of shipping and be happy with the knife and enjoy it. and get a brand new one (replacement)and wait it necessary

b) Getting it fixed by a trusted vendor: there is still a most which can be the same as the shipping cost. but then again you may not be pleased with the outcome... a little dicey.

c) fixing it yourself.. may a a source of joy if you achieve it.

There is no option A, since Watanabe never offered to fix it or replace it. I asked him if he can ship me a straighter knife to which he replied "no", and that few knives he checked are like this. In additon he state several times that this is not a and issue and this is just a kitchen tool not a precision instrument. Quite disappointing to hear that from a craftsman. I guess that explains few things as well
However he did offer to refund the knife if I ship it back. Also he did not agree to compensate the cost of straightening ~$15 which I though would be middle ground. But again, I can't blame him since he finds that everything is alright.

I thought about b and c, but I just know that I would not enjoy the knife anymore after so much frustration. So I decided to return it.
And dang, another roadblock. Cheapest tracked option to send to Japan from Canada is $80. The "economical one" is $23 but no tracking and no warranties.
Did anybody used international none trackable shipping methods, if so how was it?

btw zitangy, I am not sure where did you get that the knife is Honyaki, its a san-mai with White #2 core.

P.S. At this point I am cursing the day I checked the straightness, if I would not I would be a happy camper

 

[osakajoe]

Here are the pictures I said I'd upload.

 

[LKH9]

The standard is that low for a reputable craftsman? Wow. "Just a kitchen knife"... Seriously, if he wants to do business internationally, he has to adapt to the higher requirement!

 

[orange]

P.S. At this point I am cursing the day I checked the straightness, if I would not I would be a happy camper

Whether or not you checked the knife on a flat surface for its straightness, the knife has been the same all along....only your brain put you in frustration, otherwise, being a happy camper.
This is why Buddhism teaches us happiness is in our head.

 

[LKH9]

Whether or not you checked the knife on a flat surface for its straightness, the knife has been the same all along....only your brain put you in frustration, otherwise, being a happy camper.
This is why Buddhism teaches us happiness is in our head.

That Buddhism philosophy is very true, but some people like me just can't achieve that level! Being a perfectionist only gives frustration, but what can we do about it??

I'm totally in the same situation as OP, got a bent yanagi, face instantly turned sad the moment I notice the imperfection.

 

[olpappy]

is the edge any straighter than the spine? Can you take pics of the edge next to a plate glass?

 

[Squilliam]

Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.

To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.

 

[LKH9]

Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.

To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.

This is not as easy as it sounds. Otherwise, you won't need to pays the masters to fix these stuff. Have you done this before yourself?

 

[osakajoe]

Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.

To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.

I agree. I've fixed many blades like this.

 

[Squilliam]

I have straightened a 300mm mono steel suji, a deferentially hardened usuba I made and heat treated, as well as two Tanaka damascus clad blades (stainless and carbon) and one of those Korean knives which was as bent, twisted, warped and asymmetric as possible. Obviously I'm not an expert but fixing bends isn't always difficult, especially on a blade laminated to iron as it doesn't spring back so much.

With such a minor bend over a long knife, as long as the heat treat wasn't terrible there isn't much that can go wrong if a sensible person tries to fix it themselves.
Like sharpening their own knives, straightening bends is something most people are too scared to do and never attempt despite it being fairly straightforward.

 

[Ruso]

The standard is that low for a reputable craftsman? Wow. "Just a kitchen knife"... Seriously, if he wants to do business internationally, he has to adapt to the higher requirement!

My thoughts exactly. If I want just a kitchen knife I can go to the wall mart. If I want a quality product and something more unique I will look are reputable craftsman. Why else he thinks people buy knives from thousands miles away from him.

Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.

To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.

Honestly, it's not about how easy it is or not. I could of pay local shop $15 to fix it as well. And I could of live very perfectly with it. I was thinking just doing so. But Watanabe attitude to this issue just ruined it all for me. Seems like he just does not care and plays dumb. I am pretty sure as long as it's not broken in half he will say it is okay....
So yeah, I don't want deal with him anymore or have any of his products.

 

[Dave Martell]

I didn't read the entire thread but I'm curios if this was purchased directly from Watanabe or through a retailer?

 

[Ruso]

I didn't read the entire thread but I'm curios if this was purchased directly from Watanabe or through a retailer?

Direct from Wanatabe. Based on his website info he does not sell through retailers anymore, just direct.

 

[LKH9]

Reputation level decreased by 9000 points. Without "Satisfaction Guaranteed" policy, he can just **** off from international trade.

Ya, the main problem is that the knife is not cheap and is BRAND NEW! And if the brand new knife gets ruined by the first fix attempt, then how?

 

[ecchef]

I never really dealt with Malaysian craftspeople. Is '100% satisfaction guaranteed' a standard practice there? Do you have a link to Malaysian knife makers? I would like to try one out.

 

[LKH9]

I never really dealt with Malaysian craftspeople. Is '100% satisfaction guaranteed' a standard practice there? Do you have a link to Malaysian knife makers? I would like to try one out.

That's the quality we expect from renowned countries like Japan, US, and Europe. Nope, Malaysian makes crap products. Don't expect anything good coming from this country, otherwise, we won't have to import.

I always seem to see this Watanabe stuff on the net, it seems famous, but this case is truly shocking. It's not a cheap product.