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What is 90cr18 to be compared to? Didn't find in Zknives.
Cheap new knives test and recommend thread
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From what I found, I think it's also called 9cr18 and apparently it is also stainless and in Zknives it says: 9Cr18MoV(GB) - Chinese equivalent of the 440B steel.
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Thanks!
Wang Ma Zi is a very old knife maker based in Northern China, however like many older manufacturers they have changed hands through out time and now it is not what they used to be, they no longer manufacture their own stuff but rely on Yangjiang OEMs, 90Cr18MoV is just the new standard name for 9Cr18MoV, you can see them in Dengjia, Zhang Xiao Quan and alot of Yangjiang OEMs. Like those OEMs they are ok for cheaper price tag but I'd go for other options if you can since you are buying from China directly. Here's some knives I bought for comparable price. (Apart from Fu Yi Dao and Xin Guo, the Fu Yi Dao a small batch run that cost bit more, Xin Guo is a custom maker)
Also not to be confused with 9Cr15MoV (90Cr15MoV under new standard) which is another popular Chinese knife steel.
I see! Thanks for the explanations. I wzs thinking to go for cck directly. They cost a bit more but they are the best outside of xin guo aren't they?
They are very good for the price, the steel is not that good but the grind is exceptional. Tho I’d say there are some other small makers that does things right too, but hard to buy even in China, so best is kind subjective.
Personally I like Fu Yi Dao more, but the model I have is not even on TaoBao but only through the maker’s WeChat directly.
I see thanks!
Small makers like who?
I meant best as in they are really good for the price point and not too hard to find.
Do you happen to have a picture of your fu yi dao?
People like Ma Kaida/马凯达，Han/老韩and some others that I might not even know, there are also makers like PSRK/百浓 who moves from outdoor/EDC knives to kitchen sectors.
Here’s the pic of Fu Yi Dao/傅一刀, steel is 8Cr13MoV, basically Aus8
IMO, in addition to more inconsistency in the grinds, I think they tend to be thicker behind the edge and have more a curve in the profile. Also for someone re-handling them, they're partial instead of full tang. Still cool and I can't pass up a 10" at the flea market to save my life.
Nangfang brothers is one of the older OEMs who started doing VG10 knives in China, they did a lot of stuff for online only brands. They happen to have this 240 x 45mm blades in their TaoBao store, which is a rare size here, can’t pass that.
True to their OEM route, the knife is typical Amazon Damascus tier, maybe with some work it can be used. Tho it is advertised as a salmon/butcher knife, maybe the thick grind is for that.
True to their OEM route, the knife is typical Amazon Damascus tier, maybe with some work it can be used. Tho it is advertised as a salmon/butcher knife, maybe the thick grind is for that.
I also bought the Aus10 version since I’m in China now, just to make sure it is not a single case. Sadly the one I got is also quite thick and the grind start quite low, noticeably worse in cutting than the Damascus one, and despite seemingly thinner handle the balance is still not good, can’t recommend it even for the 200rmb.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
I suspect the day isn't far away where "Made in China" will imply a higher quality level than "Made in Germany" or "Made in the USA". There's over a billion people over there, on average just as smart as Germans or Americans. Oh, and they have a space station now, too.
I'm reminded of the debacle that ended or nearly ended many industries in Europe with items that said "Made in Japan". It was junk. Until it suddenly wasn't.
I'm reminded of the debacle that ended or nearly ended many industries in Europe with items that said "Made in Japan". It was junk. Until it suddenly wasn't.
Kind weird take… I am Chinese but this is not a Chinese knife thread but rather a cheap knife thread, most good Chinese knives are not cheap, that’s why I caution against buying cheap stuff from AliExpress. For low tech stuff like kitchen knives is more of a effort thing rather than a technology thing, there are good Thai and Indonesian knives too but they are not as cheap as people would think. The purpose of this thread is to test cheaper stuff regardless of their origin.
And honestly i don’t think heavy industry achievements like space station is a good indication of another specific industry, both Russia and US have the most advanced space programs in the world, neither of them is renown for their kitchen cutlery. In fact I don’t think made in Germany or US is an indication of quality in this hobby at all apart from individual custom makers.
drrayeye
Senior Member
Great analysis. Right now, in the USA, there is a stigma attached to cookware from China not unlike Japanese cameras in the 60's: Leica vs. Nikon.
Cookware and kitchen knives are a good percentage of products sold here--but as OEM products. For example, Mercer knives, marketed to American restaurant suppliers, have been imported from China for years--both Taiwan and Mainland.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Well, much of the preceding discussion was around Chinese knives.
I'm not so sure about that. Building rockets and space stations requires a serious amount of material science and metallurgy. It is a technology thing. Manufacturing something like SG2 steel requires a lot of high-tech manufacturing techniques and advanced control systems, not to speak of rocket nozzles…
Just as the space program did in the US, the Chinese space program will inform and improve many other industries; advances in one area enable advances in other areas.
I suspect that the Chinese already have the metals that could be used to create world-class kitchen knives. It's just that those metals haven't found their way into the knife making industry yet.
Most knife steels we use are considerably low tech and even ancient compare to aerospace material, and many of those are not even steel… High speed steel used in aerospace applications rarely found their place in knife making due to different properties requirement not to mention stuff like nickel alloys used in turbine are not even steel…
Like I said before, Russia and US still have some of the most advanced material science in aerospace applications yet we don’t see much of their kitchen cutlery. Another example is South Korea, whose high tech sect has largely dominated what use to be Japanese companies, yet their kitchen cutlery are still relatively unknown. This is a niche industry, not something like automobiles and smartphone.
I think SG2 is an actual good example why this is a low tech industry, no one here buys Japanese knives because of SG2, in fact as a steel invented in late 80s into early 90s specifically for kitchen cutlery SG2 is an outdated steel compare to what we have now like S45VN. Look around BST you will see most knives are use even more low tech stuff like white, blue or 52100, which are really simple carbons that can trace their lineage to early 20th century. What interesting about Japanese and custom knives are not their tech levels, most of their workshop haven’t change since probably 50s, but their effort put into making individual knives.
Of course if you are talking industrial scale production Yangjiang already win, but this is not mass produce kitchen knife forum. High end knives require much more effort with much less profit margin than newer industries, this is an area where new comers rarely make good money, there’s not much reason for large factories in Yangjiang to get into this area instead just do mass produced stuff.
drrayeye
Senior Member
You're generalizing wildly. The production and distribution of most kitchen knives is as advanced as most other consumer products--including most tools and devices used in the home kitchen--sold at big box retail outlets throughout the world: all large volume production.
and
Chinese manufacturers are leading--but not exclusive--suppliers--often OEM. So far, they have not been able to completely displace local manufacturing--nor the higher end enthusiast knives in Europe or Japan.
but
they are interested--even for relatively small batch runs. There was a thread in Blade Forums that detailed a single designer's collaboration--over several years--to design, prototype, and produce a Chef Knife in batches of OEM Chinese manufactured 50 knives that were delivered and sold successfully.
The only lack of interest seems to be competing with the low tech throwback artisan knives mostly from Japan--as you've indicated.
.deleted
not worth my time
not worth my time
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I usually post these in cleaver chat thread, but since I’m back in China for family visit now I might as well post it here. I think my above statement might cause misunderstanding that I don’t care for made in China knives, actually some of my favorite knives are made by Chinese artisans. But for me, it doesn’t matter where the knife is made, but rather who made it. Blank statement like made in China, Made in Japan or made in US carry no meaning without specific cases.
Here’s a budget all purpose cleaver made by a blacksmith cooperative -Shi Zi/石字- in Jiang Xi province, they use 410 cladded GCr15 (Chinese 52100 equivalent), the heat treatment might not be as precise as others but generally acceptable. All purpose cleaver is what comes to mind when most Chinese think of Chinese cleavers, a thicker heel for chicken bones while the front is thin for more delicate tasks. While it is popular, the all purpose cleaver/斩切刀 is actually a recent invention, dating back to 1930s. This is a great example of that, costing around 170rmb, truly amazing value.
Second up is a PSRK made 14c28n slicer, they are more known for their outdoor knives “inspired” by foreign brands. They usually do a good job with ht, tho nothing exceptional. This cleaver is not as good as the Fu Yi Dao or Xi Gong Zi I posted in cleaver chat, with a edge thickness more akin to shibazi, tho for home use with people who don’t treat their slicer more carefully that might be an advantage, their outdoor heritage can be seen in the handle.
Last is another Fu Yi Dao I just got, this time a 410 cladded T10, a carbon steel similar to 1095, very simple carbon, around 60 HRC, this is not as well grounded as their 8Cr slicers, but only half the price, making it more in the CCK price range. They are a family business that does most forging in house as can be seen in the cladding line. I really love their stuff and currently trying to find some US vendors to carry them.
Here’s a budget all purpose cleaver made by a blacksmith cooperative -Shi Zi/石字- in Jiang Xi province, they use 410 cladded GCr15 (Chinese 52100 equivalent), the heat treatment might not be as precise as others but generally acceptable. All purpose cleaver is what comes to mind when most Chinese think of Chinese cleavers, a thicker heel for chicken bones while the front is thin for more delicate tasks. While it is popular, the all purpose cleaver/斩切刀 is actually a recent invention, dating back to 1930s. This is a great example of that, costing around 170rmb, truly amazing value.
Second up is a PSRK made 14c28n slicer, they are more known for their outdoor knives “inspired” by foreign brands. They usually do a good job with ht, tho nothing exceptional. This cleaver is not as good as the Fu Yi Dao or Xi Gong Zi I posted in cleaver chat, with a edge thickness more akin to shibazi, tho for home use with people who don’t treat their slicer more carefully that might be an advantage, their outdoor heritage can be seen in the handle.
Last is another Fu Yi Dao I just got, this time a 410 cladded T10, a carbon steel similar to 1095, very simple carbon, around 60 HRC, this is not as well grounded as their 8Cr slicers, but only half the price, making it more in the CCK price range. They are a family business that does most forging in house as can be seen in the cladding line. I really love their stuff and currently trying to find some US vendors to carry them.
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A word of warning, while I used to have some good experiences with Kitchenknives.id shipments, they warned of some customs changes last year. After that, my shipment took 3+ months. Considering the low price and ease of working with them on custom orders (which remains unchanged in my experience and I've seen various grinds including very thin hollow grinds, wide bevels, full flat mid-weights to workhorses from them) I figured it was worth the wait.
A couple months later I ordered a couple customs, then while those were being finished added two more. They asked if I want to ship the initial batch, or wait and ship them all together. I elected to wait and after checking in at the end of December, heard from them on January 1st that they were shipped. Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for them.
It does seem that access to tracking is not available to them, whereas it has been prior to the changes they notified me of last year. They have remained responsive to throughout, but I think it's fair for folks to understand there's a bit of risk involved. Is it worth it for the price? Perhaps, but to each their own. I do think they offer value and a cool opportunity to experiment on designs. I might try again in the future, but probably only for 1-2 knives at a time.
+1 on this, I especially like the yo handled ones even though I usually prefer wa handles. Can't beat the price of one of these with matching amboyna burl handle/saya. The wood alone in the States would cost more than the knife does.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
I've noticed on ETSY there're cheap J-knives galore, many produced in China, Vietnam, etc.
Not my cup of tea for where I am these days. However, I've a bunch of friends who they would be ideal for, who're people that do cook a lot, wanting a 'Japanese style knife'; who don't and will probably never sharpen beyond a pull-through sharpening device; and who won't want to spend north of $50. I'd probably not talk anyone from buying the knife below, or a MISEN, etc. (if they had their heart set on it)—everyone has an entry point to J-knives.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/106985...slug=flash-sale-the-legend-gyuto-knife-master
Also, the term 'cheap' can be subjective—for me, a cheap, handmade gyuto is anything under-$350.
Not my cup of tea for where I am these days. However, I've a bunch of friends who they would be ideal for, who're people that do cook a lot, wanting a 'Japanese style knife'; who don't and will probably never sharpen beyond a pull-through sharpening device; and who won't want to spend north of $50. I'd probably not talk anyone from buying the knife below, or a MISEN, etc. (if they had their heart set on it)—everyone has an entry point to J-knives.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/106985...slug=flash-sale-the-legend-gyuto-knife-master
Also, the term 'cheap' can be subjective—for me, a cheap, handmade gyuto is anything under-$350.
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I
I can honestly recommend the Kyukuto Damascus (not the Aus10) one tested above, good price, slightly more than $50 from AliExpress. Tho under that it’s kind of hard to choose, Tojiro A1 usually is my first choice, downside is they don’t go over 180mm.
DitmasPork
Senior Member
Typically I'll try to convince people to spend a bit more for quality—Misono, Mac, are some I like to push on newbies coming from German knives. But, occasionally I have friends that're super excited about Kamikoto, Nanfang knife sets they've bought—I'm not one liking to rain on other people’s parades.
With relatively inexpensive wa handle gyutos, jumping up a tier from 'cheap'—been happy with the performance of Yoshimi Echizen.
HappyamateurDK
Senior Member
I recently bough this Böker after reading good thing about it on this forum.
The price was 45 euros( 47 USD) and you get a really nice, simple no nonsense carbon steel knife with a good plum wood handle and a decent fit&finish.
It didn't cut great out of the box, and it certainly benefits from a good thinning. But after that you get a lot of knive for the money.
The price was 45 euros( 47 USD) and you get a really nice, simple no nonsense carbon steel knife with a good plum wood handle and a decent fit&finish.
It didn't cut great out of the box, and it certainly benefits from a good thinning. But after that you get a lot of knive for the money.
Vey good price. My piece cost almost 52€
Did you thinn it?
HappyamateurDK
Senior Member
I wasn't me who thinned it. I took it to a local sharpener who did a great job with it.
