* Remedy Damascus - $400

[oivind_dahle]

For makers that are known this knife will be of no threat.
However I believe this knife will be a treat to those who want to enter the kitchenknife market.

For Dave, Marko, Fowler and a lot of other newcommers I truly believe this knife will be a threat. Most people buy a knife because of looks and not the cutting ability. The few nuts on this forum is NOT the majority, so I truly believe massproduction of great looking knives will eventually make it difficult to compete with.

I have not tried a remedy, but Im sure its way beyon the need in a normal homekitchen.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

We will see. There are some things that machines can't do and that is what kept folks like Shigefusa in business, but ultimately, the best defense against unfair competition is to work harder for less and share less because of data mining. I don't have more to add to this topic.

M

 

[maxim]

We will see. There are some things that machines can't do and that is what kept folks like Shigefusa in business, but ultimately, the best defense against unfair competition is to work harder for less and share less . This is an unfortunate side product of public forums. I don't have more to add to this topic.

M

Yep vendors like him make it difficult for others to share information on open forum

 

[BertMor]

Its a pity we can't 'charge' Mark for all the info he has learned from us. I remember a scant year ago that he was a total n00b who didn't know 404SS from White #2. Much of his sucess is a regurgitation of our discussions over the years. Oh well

 

[ajhuff]

Wow you guys are harsh. Must be a lot of bad blood out there.

I don't know much but this knife looks no different than what is supplied by Ford. You can but a Mercury, Ford or Lincoln. In the end they are all the same with differing levels of refinement. I personally put Mercury at the bottom of that list. To me Lamson is the Merc, this knife is the Ford and the DT is the Lincoln. And I am talking about perceived quality to the end user so don't go off on a tangent about customization and workmanship. It's all about the end user not the maker.

-AJ

PS. I have almost 20 years in the foundry making primarily parts for the automotive industry but several others as well, so I have first hand experience. Seb is spot on and that's all I will say about that.

 

[mpukas]

Wow you guys are harsh. Must be a lot of bad blood out there.

+1

Seb is spot on and that's all I will say about that.

+2

 

[mpukas]

Dave - you should really start another off-topic sub-forum for threads like this, and move it there. There's abosolutely nothing interesting, informative or relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread. If you and some other members want to engage in debating and bashing other people for what they did, said or choose to do, that fine - this is your party after all - but there are many of us find great value in your forum and don't care to engage in or even be bothered by this nonsense.

 

[apicius9]

Maybe it hurts a bit to see that the US are getting beaten at their own game - unregulated capitalism?

As for the knife, I agree that it will probably ride on Devin's reputation, and I am sure there will be a market for it. It's a smart move to occupy the 'middle segment' between the better production knives and the full custom ones, and I also assume it will compete most with the products of new malers who have yet to make a name for themselves.

Stefan

 

[sj9603]

Dave - you should really start another off-topic sub-forum for threads like this, and move it there. There's abosolutely nothing interesting, informative or relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread. If you and some other members want to engage in debating and bashing other people for what they did, said or choose to do, that fine - this is your party after all - but there are many of us find great value in your forum and don't care to engage in or even be bothered by this nonsense.

I like it where it is. It is interesting, informative, and downright relative to kitchen knives, especially to people who are planning to invest in custom knives. Well, that investment just might go the way US stock market went these days.

 

[Vertigo]

relative to kitchen knives and sharpening in this thread.

Ah yes, discussing the merits and flaws of a national vendor creating inexpensive, mass-produced knives, using a well known custom maker's damascus billets--as well as how the new product might impact the custom market--isn't knife related at all.

 

[NO ChoP!]

I think the custom makers should focus on perfecting their product if they want to stay viable. You can slap a cool handle on a flat POS with an edge, and it will never outperform the likes of a Masamoto, shig, Mizuno, Watanabe, etc..

 

[EdipisReks]

The Chinese had nothing to do with the failure of US manufacturing.

there is no failure of US manufacturing. consumer goods that are driven primarily by end cost aren't made here, but a hell of a lot certainly is. now US manufacturing employment may certainly be a failure...

 

[Eamon Burke]

It's an American sold, American made knife, made from American steel. This is not outsourcing in any way, shape, or form.

It's like asking if Hungry Man dinners will put restaurants out of business. Yes, some people are going to eat from the freezer instead.
All of the people? No.
Will it shut down restaurants that are putting out food that is equivalent to Hungry Man dinners? Yes it will.

If you make knives by hand that are exactly the same in form and function as something that Lamson & Goodnow can do cheaper with a machine, then you'd better market it for what it is--a specialty/novelty product, or a hobby. I do not doubt that these knives are not going to compare to the knives you can get in their range--one of Dave's, Butch's etc.

My only problems with this brand has ever been the following:
1. It's a CKTG store-brand, and a little weird that they are named after Mark specifically. Not a big issue, since Mark doesn't advertise himself as a knife maker.
2. It's pricey. Some of you think they are so cheap they will put people out of business, but I think they are not quite cheap enough. Mark knows what he is doing, so he can make money how he will. I'd sell em cheaper.


Keep in mind, the bulk of Mark's business is no longer on this forum. It's run-of-the-mill dudes who can't tell a Shigefusa from a Masamoto. Everyone at my job was unimpressed with the Fowler and Rader passarounds I was testing--because they don't know what they are looking at, and don't know quality when they see it. I would venture to say that most home and pro cooks couldn't really tell the difference between a Richmond and a Shun.

It's an odd niche that he is selling these too, and I don't see it harming any reputable maker's business very much at all.

 

[tk59]

Frankly, I think he does it, in part, because it's fun. I certainly think it would be cool to design a knife and then actually be able to sell it. I'd rather make it myself or have someone else with considerably greater skill do it but to each his own, I suppose.

 

[wenus2]

I'm sure Devin has thought about the pluses and minuses, but for me I see the biggest risk to him in this venture. His steel is definitely the selling point of this knife and his name will be talked about when selling it.

Thats what I see as the main problem with the product, because it doesn't have a makers name attached to it.

For example, when Marko makes a knife from DT steel the end product is a Tsourkan knife, and while the origin of the steel would be noted, the perceived craftsman is Marko.
On this knife I see the perceived craftsman being DT regardless of the fact he did not make it, because nobody in particular is making it and his name is the only talking point, and/or quality point.

I don't see it affecting the new custom makers because, lets be honest, you have to be in the know to even find them anyway. Even if some knife nutt entrant buys the knife he will eventually buy another, and another, and another (we all know how this goes) and it will likely be from a different (better?) maker. That same customer would have (or did) likely purchased a factory Kramer or a Miyabi anyway when starting out, just as most of us have owned a Shun at some point. This would just be another early stop in that progression, and it's from these types of products that we learn to appreciate the really good stuff, it gives us our frame of reference.

You guys know that Putz (no offense to the putz) shelling out $15k for Kramers on Ebay? Well, I see the real power market for this knife being his neighbors trying to keep up with the Jones'. People who can't tell the difference in performance from their Cutco anyway, so it wont matter if there is none. "Look at this pretty knife I found on the internet Honey, lets have a dinner party catered so I can put it on the table for people to see how fancy we are."

 

[stevenStefano]

$400 is quite a lot of money for a knife. Is the Remedy out yet? It would take a lot for me to spend such money on a knife, and I'd be much more concerned with the blade profile/geometry and that sort of thing than the damascus pattern. If the Remedy turns out good perhaps this would be popular. I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design

 

[99Limited]

... On this knife I see the perceived craftsman being DT regardless of the fact he did not make it, because nobody in particular is making it and his name is the only talking point, and/or quality point.

Using your logic then, the company that supplied the steel for the other Richmond knives should be perceived as being the craftsmen for those knives. You can bet nobody has come to that conclusion.

 

[tk59]

$400 is quite a lot of money for a knife. Is the Remedy out yet? It would take a lot for me to spend such money on a knife, and I'd be much more concerned with the blade profile/geometry and that sort of thing than the damascus pattern. If the Remedy turns out good perhaps this would be popular. I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design

If you buy damascus, you can expect to pay for the extra labor and the wasted steel. Afterall, some dude has to stand there and pound chunks of steel together inside an oven over and over again and ends up throwing most of it away in the process. $400 for a damascus blade is pretty inexpensive.

 

[wenus2]

Using your logic then, the company that supplied the steel for the other Richmond knives should be perceived as being the craftsmen for those knives. You can bet nobody has come to that conclusion.

No, because it wasn't a selling point. I wouldn't doubt if a good percentage of the actual owners don't even know what the steel is. That won't be the case with this knife.
I wasn't using the term "craftsman" loosely in my initial statement.

 

[oivind_dahle]

I have never ordered any sort of custom, but could anyone give a rough idea what the starting price would be for a 240 because I am thinking $400 is pretty close? If the Remedy is close to a custom price I think I'd rather do that because you'd have much more input into its design

A Custom Damascus or Sanmai starts at about 1000 USD
A Devin Thomas Custom Damascus 240 Gyuto starts at 1500 USD
A Bill Burke Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 2100 USD
A Bob Kramer Custom 240 Gyuto starts at 10000 USD

 

[99Limited]

No, because it wasn't a selling point. I wouldn't doubt if a good percentage of the actual owners don't even know what the steel is. That won't be the case with this knife.
I wasn't using the term "craftsman" loosely in my initial statement.

Well, we will never know why someone will buy theses knives. IMO, a good number of people will buy the knife because it's, "Made with this cool looking, fancy designed steel. I think it's called damascus." They're not going to know who DT is or anything about his skills. Even if MR comes up with a good back story about DT and sticks it in the box with the knife, quiz these buyers a year later about the steel and they're going to say, "Umm, I think it's Mark Richmond, but I don't remember for sure."

 

[stevenStefano]

Oivind that is quite informative, I've always been curious about such prices, very few people seem to talk about prices. I was talking more about regular customs, not damascus. I know it isn't a true comparison, I meant more that if I had around $400 I'd rather go for something like a Rodrigue

 

[oivind_dahle]

The problem with custom knives are not the price, its the waiting

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

The problem with custom knives are not the price, its the waiting

Don't think of it as waiting, but rather savor the anticipation.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I think the custom makers should focus on perfecting their product if they want to stay viable. You can slap a cool handle on a flat POS with an edge, and it will never outperform the likes of a Masamoto, shig, Mizuno, Watanabe, etc..

Is the public prepared to pay for the extra time and effort that goes into making a top quality knife, especially when an inexpensive look-alike is available at a fraction of a cost? That's the catch. CKTG market for these knives are forums, not outside of them. Outside people buy Shun or $5.95 Forschner. Maybe Tojiro.

 

[steeley]

70 knifes is a drop in the ocean of kitchen knifes made.
and i blame Walmart.
unless they have hungry man dinners cheaper.:chin:

 

[jmforge]

I don't know. With the press coverage about guys like Bob Kramer that we have been seeing lately, there may be quite a large market for custom knives if you are willing to bite your tongue and sell to yuppies who will put your gorgeous knives on top of their uber-expensive 6 burner Wolf commercial range that only sees food when they put take out containers on it.

Is the public prepared to pay for the extra time and effort that goes into making a top quality knife, especially when an inexpensive look-alike is available at a fraction of a cost? That's the catch. CKTG market for these knives are forums, not outside of them. Outside people buy Shun or $5.95 Forschner. Maybe Tojiro.

 

[rockbox]

If you can't compete with a McDonalds Angus burger, then you maybe you shouldn't be in the restaurant business.

You shouldn't expect to make a decent living in field where people are willing to spend money doing it. In fields like sports, acting and art, only the very top of the field make money while most have to spend money to participate. This especially true for the high end kitchen knife market. The market is not that big with a lot of people willing to make knives at a loss. For instance it would be much less expensive for me to buy a knife from Hoss, Carter, or Rader than it cost to buy all the equipment I have bought in the last year trying to make knives, and theirs would have been "better" quality.

Mark is a business man. It's not much more effort for him to order some steel from Hoss, ship it to whomever he has making them and sticking it on his website than it does for him to order a Tojiro or CCK from the manufacturer. If he can make 50 bucks a knife and sell 100 of them, then that is 5000 dollars for making some phone calls and shipping some boxes. Capital isn't even a big issue for him because he will probably sell the knives as fast as he can get them and in most cases, before he gets them. For the consumer, they can get a great knife at a fairly low price. For Hoss, he can do what he loves to do without having to spend time marketing himself. For the knife manufacturer, they have the volume to keep their employees busy. The only person it hurts is the competitors, but as I said at the beginning of this post; "If you can't compete with a Mcdonalds Angus burger, then maybe you should consider doing something else." It's not Mark's job to worry about if his COMPETITORS can make a living, just like its not not SLT, WS, or Cutlery and More's job to worry Mark can make a living.

 

[chazmtb]

Want a good knife, get a ichimonji tkc.

 

[Marko Tsourkan]

I think you are confusing dumping and competition. I should have used word dumping through the thread to make things more clear. I have no problem with competition either from makers or retailers like Jon.

Mark is businessman, but I don't see him taking a $50 profit on Japanese knives he is selling and giving you guys a break for all the help you gave him. By your logic, Tom, he should do just that and sell a volume, but he doesn't. (I understand there might be some price agreements, but in principle, if he wanted, he could do it).

I do have an issue with dumping and you would probably too, if it is affected your work and livelihood. I bet your company has an army of lawyers and lobbyists to address that very notion.

It's that simple. Anyway, I know enough about capitalism, so you can spare yourself a lecture. And besides, I can compete with an MD Angus burger, and if not, I will find somethings else to do.

M